I'm in a group that is starting up Legacy of Fire soon. I was asked to make a Rogue-type character, and wanting to try something a littler different, I made a Sandman Bard. The group groaned. I also know from experience that a Sandman Bard is kind of awful at first level (little to spellsteal from, no inspire courage) so I'm re-thinking a Rogue.
Now the thing is, I really wanted to play an Ifrit for this campaign, or at least a non-traditional race (human/elf/dwarf). This leaves me stuck with one feat at first level, and the default Rogue weapon proficiencies. Among those weapons, in melee, it seems like Rapier is the only logical option. Going with a Short Sword as your primary is just throwing away crit range for no good reason. I'd considered a quarterstaff, but even if I go with TWF at first level, there's no benefit there versus just going Rapier/Short Sword instead. In fact, the quarterstaff is objectively worse (same damage, same attack bonus, less crit).
I'm so tired of the Rapier-wielding Rogue, though. I'd love to do something else, but I don't want to cripple the character (and I'm gaming with well-optimized characters and a fairly brutal GM). I'm also trying to avoid Weapon Finesse at 1st level, both because it's a waste of a feat (I can just pick up Finesse Rogue at 2nd) and because finessing seems kind of wasteful.
Any suggestions? Good arguments in favor of something cool and flavorful like dual punching daggers?
Rappers are too long to hide in your boot, or stuff up your sleeve.
Needs more information
Does your group put any emphasis on trapfinding, from your character?
What archetypes are you considering for your rogue?
For non-traditional races, have you considered Tengu?
Has your GM put any restrictions on certain content/books/etc?
Weren't there a couple of two-handed Rogue builds making the rounds recently?
If it's a inde not PFS game, you could petition the GM to let you switch it 1 for 1 with something else martial or less.
You could just narrate it differently. It uses rapier stats, but is describe as a very uniquely designed short sword. (Ie no game rules are changed or broken, just fluff. Most players don't mind if it's openly informed to everyone, then you get the mechanics that work with the narrative you crave). Gamer here does that all the time with using Falchion stats for a unique 'axe' he drew.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Rappers are too long to hide in your boot, or stuff up your sleeve.
Well said, both in what you meant and in the typo. :)
Reason 1: Weapon Finesse sucks. (well, it is generally not optimal.)
I also almost always take a martial class dip with my rogue: 2 Ranger, 4 Fighter, etc.
This opens up plenty of great weapons for a STR based Rogue, better armor, better BAB, extra feats, etc.
There is little reason to go pure rogue.
Needs more information
Does your group put any emphasis on trapfinding, from your character?
What archetypes are you considering for your rogue?
For non-traditional races, have you considered Tengu?
Has your GM put any restrictions on certain content/books/etc?
Trapfinding was one of the main reasons I went with Sandman for the Bard concept, so yes, it's pretty important. I haven't been satisfied with any of the Rogue archetypes, since all of them give up either Trapfinding or Uncanny Dodge, and none of the replacement abilities seem worth it IMO (Rogue archetypes are for dipping from other martial classes, IMO)
I suppose a Tengu in Katapesh wouldn't be out of place, but a Katana is not exactly what I had in mind...I wanted to keep the Middle Eastern look/feel of the campaign (hence the Ifrit).
All official Paizo books are on the table, as far as I know.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There was a scout-thug rogue with the enforcer feat that used an earthbreaker not too long ago on the forums.
The scout part was to activate Sap Master when charging (enemies treated as flat footed, 2x Sneak Attack Damage) and the thug archetype was to make them frightened (enforcer lets you initimidate them as a free action when you hit, and shaken them for number of rounds equal to the damage you deal, thug makes them frightened if they are shaken for more than 4 rounds, almost guaranteed with sneak attack).
Of course you had to take bludgeoner to make the damage nonlethal (for both Sap Master and Enforcer), but it can be a strength based character, especially if you take Intimidating Prowess (Str to Intimidate rolls) which I believe you can take as a rogue talent.
So you (probably a half-orc for the intimidate bonus) rush into battle screaming bloody murder, bat someone on the head with your gigantic sledgehammer and either knock them out or send them scurrying home to Mommy.
prototype00
Edit: You'll give up trapfinding and uncanny dodge unfortunately, but hey, extremely combat effective.
Try a rogue with Improved Disarm, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Catch-Off Guard. Maybe a level of Monk of the Empty Hand to help with the feats. If someone is unarmed, and you use an Improvised weapon, they are flat-footed and you get your sneak attack.
Improved Disarm won't be available until 3rd level, due to a lack of bonus feats (it requires Combat Expertise). Even if I used Combat trick as my 2nd level rogue talent, it'd be quite some time before I could pull off the combo that you're describing.
|
Use daggers and go Daggermaster? The bump in sneak attack dice offsets the smaller weapon die, 19-20 crit range is still fairly decent (or use kukris for 18-20), and you can melee, throw, even dual-wield. Plus, a knife has a lot more utility for everyday activities than a rapier, which is good for stabbing people and little else. You can use a knife for cooking, whittling, cutting rope, shaving, butchering, all sorts of things.
If you want to be Dex focused but not take Weapon Finesse at first level, you can probably skate by with thrown attacks and the occasional flanking melee attack to make up for the lower attack bonus. Even with a Strength build, there is no reason you can't be a strong guy who prefers knives, and you can still be a fairly effective switch-hitter. With Quick Draw, Rapid Shot and Two-weapon Fighting, you can put a lot of steel in the air first round to take advantage of flat-footed targets, then close to melee with your buddies flanking.
The best reason for me to not use a rapier is that I don't like its style. And in the end style > substance.
|
Improved Disarm won't be available until 3rd level, due to a lack of bonus feats (it requires Combat Expertise). Even if I used Combat trick as my 2nd level rogue talent, it'd be quite some time before I could pull off the combo that you're describing.
You could try manuever master monk and then rogue levels, but you still have to wait till level 2 :(
1.Catch-Off Guard
1M.Improved Disarm
2.Rogue stuff comes into play.
That's not a bad idea; Daggermaster is also tempting, but again I'd be giving up trapfinding.
The Scout archetype for the Rogue where you can sneak attack on a charge is fun.
Also, maybe check out the Archeologist Bard archetype. Basically a rogue w/ spells.
Well, if you don't want to dual-wield you could go for Dervish Dancing with a Scimitar. It would certainly fit the middle-eastern flavor of Legacy of Fire.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Kukris are good weapons too.
The Scout archetype for the Rogue where you can sneak attack on a charge is fun.
Also, maybe check out the Archeologist Bard archetype. Basically a rogue w/ spells.
Archeologist Bard is very tempting, and I love the Indiana Jones flavor to it. It seems a little damage-starved in the long run (vs. a rogue), but it's high on my list of alternates.
|
Have you considered the Seeker archetype for Oracle or Sorcerer? If skills and sneak attack don't matter that much to you, you could be the groups trapfinder as well as the main divine/arcane caster. I'll second the Archaeologist bard archetype, as well; as I recall it's much better than Sandman. Don't worry too much about damage; with all the other roles you fill, pegging people with arrows or supporting from behind the front lines with a whip is fine.
You could also go the natural attack route if you pick Tengu, Catfolk, or Tiefling, or are willing to grab 2 levels of Ranger for Aspect of the Beast (perhaps with Half-Orc to get the Gore attack as well). There are some trade-offs involved, but having 2-3 attacks that each get Sneak Attack at low levels can be really nasty.
There are plenty of reasons to use another weapon instead of rapiers, but with all the restriction you have presented the rapier is just the best weapon.
Well, there are also Exotic weapons to consider, right? Khopesh and Spiked Chain both look pretty good.
I greatly appreciate a fencing-type rogue. But sometimes it may actually be necessary to sneak some weapons in behind enemy lines with Sleight of Hand.
Also, that sap proficiency might come in handy when you need to take 'em back alive.
Other than that, stay sharp and look fancy with the rapier
Not at first level if you only ave one feat and you are dex based. If youare at least level 3 then the scimitar for dervish dance is the best option for the combat style you want (or you can start with the bard archetype that get fervish dance for free).There are plenty of reasons to use another weapon instead of rapiers, but with all the restriction you have presented the rapier is just the best weapon.Well, there are also Exotic weapons to consider, right? Khopesh and Spiked Chain both look pretty good.
Even if you have, say, STR 14 and DEX 18, I'd think twice about going with Weapon Finesse. It's a pretty terrible investment.
You could play a half orc for falchion/greataxe proficiency and do massive sneak attack damage.
Even if you have, say, STR 14 and DEX 18, I'd think twice about going with Weapon Finesse. It's a pretty terrible investment.But a 13 Str and 18 Dex makes it look alright. +3 to hit, and adding your Dex to CMB rather than Str.
At that point, you have to ask yourself why you paid for a 13 STR when all it's giving you is +1 to melee damage.
I once saw one that basically didn't melee anything if he could help it. Was eventually going for arcane trickster. But it was rogue sorc. He was using sneakiness, vanish, and ray spells for his sneak attack dice damage.
He was mostly a scout and a trap finder. Almost all his combat was ranged touch attack from hiding.
Another possiblity is some of the races have interesting weapons as alternate racial traits. You might consider one of those.
What I am doing is fetchling summoner.
Serpentine eidolon with skill focus stealth and perception.
I like the longspear for a rogue. You can flank and sneak attack at reach while the fighter types go toe to toe. As long as you're out of reach, you're not being attacked. I also think the scout archetype is the way to go for an offensively minded rogue.
If you play a half orc, the skulking slayer is also a good archetype.
Of course there's something to be said about the sap master build, but that's a very feat intensive investment.
Archeologist Bard is very tempting, and I love the Indiana Jones flavor to it. It seems a little damage-starved in the long run (vs. a rogue), but it's high on my list of alternates.
Losing out on the sneak attack is unfortunate, but the spell casting is a fair tradeoff, in my opinion. It really depends on play style though.
Tengu with elven curve blade. agile and 18-20/2 crit.
An elf or half elf (alternate racial trait) works too. Sneak attacking w/ an Elven Curve Blade is just awesome.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
AScout with a bludgeoning Weapon and the Sap Master Feats f*@+ing rocks. Max out strength and consider taking proficiency with some big weapon and Power Attack.
The Knifemaster has already been mentioned. You'd lose trapfinding though. If you go for Knifemaster take the River Rat Trait for +1 damage with daggers.
Just remembered another I've seen.
A kobold ranger with the trapper archtype.
I don't remember what weapon he used.
|
Just go Urban Ranger. Martial weapons and Disable Device. Pick whichever martial weapon you want. Loss of some skill points and traits can make up for loosing out on Bluff or Diplomacy if you need them.
Just scanned the other posts and suprised no-one else said it first. ... They probably did and I missed it.
Sic
Yeah, but if you do use a quarterstaff you can pretend you're Robin. That's worth giving up the crits, I feel.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Make a turtlefolk rogue who calls himself a ninja and wields a quarterstaff. Dump Charisma and pump Int. Or make a turtlefolk ninja/rogue that power attacks with Sai's or that has a low Int and uses nunchaku, or one with a level of paladin of Shizuru and EWP katana, dual-wielding of course. TMNT.
Good Reasons for a Rogue to not use a rapier?
Because he likes actually contributing with damage?
Half Orc Strength Rogue offers the Falchion which is half a point per swing below the Nodachi, but with a higher minimum
a Half Elf Strength Rogue can pick up any melee or ranged martial or exotic weapon you please. even a Fauchard or Falcata
a Tengu Strength rogue can use any weapon you please from the light or heavy blades weapon groups despite being 2 points of strength behind a strong race. the CON penalty is an issue here
outside of PFS, in some home games, the native outsider races (Planetouched and the like) cheat the requirements for arcane strike, and are proficient with all martial weapons, which is a commonly ignored ability
Elven strength rogues can 2hand a longsword or with multiclassing, an elven curve blade. the CON penalty is a pain to deal with
Dwarven strength rogues can 2hand a warhammer or battle axe, or with multiclassing, a dwarven waraxe. the CON bonus, and saving throw bonuses work wonders for keeping you alive
Orcs offer the same Weapons as half orcs, trading 2 points of int, wis, and cha, for 2 extra str, free diehard, and light sensitivity
Hobgoblins have an alternate racial that offers a few mediocre 2handers, that fit the Zon-Kuthon theme. they are also one of the only 2 races to boost 2 physical stats, the other, being the merfolk. but merfolk have +6 worth of stat bonuses and +2 natural armor with the downside of a 15 foot base land speed.
Giving up trap-finding is not a big deal, LoF doesn't have any old school traps (well there is one that is sort of nasty, but its pretty late and pretty easy to bypass).
As for playing LoF with a sneak attack class, keep in mind there is plenty of elemental creatures in this AP. Which means no sneak attacks, flanking, or crit damage.
Also: any bard>any rogue. Play the Bard,the first 5 levels go by quickly since this AP was 3.5 its XP uses the fast track. Playing a rogue, particularly one in LoF, is already crippling yourself. So many monsters have stealth busting sense and/or are immune to your main damage its not even funny.
My suggestion is to play a bard, or possibly a magus. They are more likely to be useful and their tricks work the whole campaign.
I like the longspear for a rogue. You can flank and sneak attack at reach while the fighter types go toe to toe. As long as you're out of reach, you're not being attacked. I also think the scout archetype is the way to go for an offensively minded rogue
I second this wholeheartedly. I am always a bit sad to see how little respect the spear and long spear receive, despite the fact that they are some of the most commonly used melee weapons in history. The fact that it will always receive 150% power attack bonus makes it attractive, even if your DEX outranks your strength. Heck, with combat reflexes, that is almost a bonus since it lets you do some battlefield control.
If you do choose a more exotic race, you might want to consider whether it has any SLAs. I bring this up due to the recent FAQ aboutSpell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites. Basically, if you have an SLA, and it is based on the something from the list for an arcane caster, you count as a caster with spells upto its spell level. Since racial SLA's tend to use your character level as your caster level, you can take advantage of a few tricks. For example, Arcane Strike seems like an interesting option for a feat at first level when you can't use power attack. It adds a +1 to your damage rolls initially (maximum of +5), and you never have to worry about DR/magic, all for the price of your swift action.
Admittedly, you could also qualify for arcane strike with a rogue talent (this FAQ made that talent go from useless fluff to decent build material), but that would take long to pull off well if you do not want to mess with power attack or piranha attack at third level.
Because now that all of the barbarians are using them, rogues are SO past them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Let me show you something about trapfinding.
Ways to get trapfinding:
1) 1st level rogue (a bunch of archetypes give that up)
2) 3rd level urban ranger
3) 1st level trapper ranger
4) 1st level seeker oracle*
5) 1st level seeker sorcerer*
6) 1st level crypt breaker alchemist
7) 2nd level detective bard*
8) The 2nd level bard/alchemist/wizard spell Aram Zey's focus (too bad the duration is only 1 minute per level)
9) 2nd level archevist bard*
10) 6th level archeologist bard*
11) 1st level sandman bard*
*those 6 get trapfinding in everything but the name
Also remember that all trapfinding does is to give you the ability to disable magical traps (in PF anyone can find any kind of traps) and gives you a bonus to find and disable traps. It certainly doesn't let you to roll perception for traps when you aren't actively looking for them (the trap spotter rogue talent tries to do that).
So my suggestion is to make a rogue who can really contribute in combat and not worry about trapfinding and if you really want it simply use the list above to get it.
I've just built a Rogue 2 / Zen Archer Monk 3 at 5th level. Sneaky trap finding and disabling but with combat skills too. I've taken the Trap Spotter Rogue talent and with a high Wisdom Perception is good. It's fun to play.
I used to think the difference between the rapier and the short sword was, beyond price, the short sword could deal either piercing or slashing damage. This doesn't seem to be the case though. Must be a nerf since 3.x, or I am misremembering. Also as noted, you can conceal a short sword with Sleight of Hand (because it is a light weapon); you cannot a rapier.
I do agree with the knife master suggestion if you are wanting to go for something a little different, and you are focusing on sneak attack.
Another "something different" would be to specialize in sap, and take feats like Sap Adept and Sap Master, and bludgeon all your foes into unconsciousness. Make a great bounty hunter (not the archetype, the concept) that way, someone who is known for capturing his foes alive. Now if you want to use the ifrit's Scorching Weapons tree, this isn't a good one, but it's certainly different and can be a flavorful way to play.
If you aren't married to the idea of ifrit (since you mentioned other non traditional races), I'd suggest going half-orc and being a falchion fighter or take the chain fighter alternate and use flails or spiked chain (the latter if you really want a finesse build, but I'd go with a Strength build on this one and not worry about weapon finesse). Falchion gives you all those lovely crit options that you seem to like.
Half-orc also goes well with Thug because of the Intimidate bonus, and combining orc ferocity with the rogue resiliency talent makes your character a hard one to keep down.