and, the vancian system as proposed does implicitly incentivize investment in INT, WIS, CHA, because some very cool feats are locked behind a decent attribute in these scores, and 'vance' has access to all of them so long as he meets those pre-req's.
the question to me is whether that incentive system ought to be not only more explicitly written in, but also if reward differentiation between dumping (ex. 7 INT) and moderation (ex. 10 INT) ought to be (dis-)incentivized as well.
One of the things I did that helped in that area was to rewrite the combat expertise and fighting defensively as follows.
Change fighting defensively gives you a +1 AC, -2 to hit. You get an additional +1/-2 for each 4 BAB. You also gain a +1 AC for every 5 ranks of acrobatics
Change all out defense gives you +2 AC with and additional +2 AC for every 4 BAB you have. You get an additional +1 AC for every 3 ranks of acrobatics you have. You do not threaten while using all out defense.
New feat: Improved defense - prereq 13 dex, when fighting defensively, you only suffer half the normal to hit penalty. When you are using all out defense, double your AC bonus.
Overall, the effect is the same as the current combat expertise with a little better scaling out of the box.
Then, I change combat expertise.
Combat expertise - prereq int 13, add your intelligence bonus to your CMB
Since combat expertise is used to unlock a lot of combat manuvers, it makes sense that it should actually make your better at them.
As a side effect, these changes are an overall nerf to pure casters because they get less out of fighting defensively and all out defense until level 8 or so.
Honestly I think the retraining rules in Ultimate Campaign handle this quite nicely with a good sense of verisimilitude and it gives you something interesting and useful to do during your downtime. I do support Paladins and Fighters getting a two skill point bump and have that as a house rule at my table, but otherwise halfway competently built Fighters are already kings of combat and don't need much love.
I don't think the idea is to make them better at combat. I think the idea is just to make them more fun to play :)
I don't think the idea is to make them better at combat. I think the idea is just to make them more fun to play :)
A fighter is the ultimate in custom ass kicker building, you can build pretty much any type of hero with nearly any details you want. I fail to see how near absolute freedom to build the hero you want is not fun for people.
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one way is that a fighter can take less combat feats with his character level feats because the bonus feats allow him, with some prep time, to cover more bases with less resources.
this liberates him to spend his character level feats (at the player's discretion) on more concept-based things rather than on combat-based things without yielding any ground of his overall combat superiority.
further, for newer players, this allows them a fun mechanic to 'explore' the feats section of the rulebook in a more hands-on way.
remember the fighter already has ways to switch out feats at 4/8/12/16/20 upon attaining those levels. the vancian proposal essentially just pours some gear-oil over that already existing mechanic.
A fighter is the ultimate in custom ass kicker building, you can build pretty much any type of hero with nearly any details you want. I fail to see how near absolute freedom to build the hero you want is not fun for people.
Everyone finds different things fun. There are a lot of people who like the fighter because he has no X/day abilities. Those people would no doubt be baffled by this thread. Clearly, however, there is some demand for what is happening in this thread :)
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a way around using an X/day mechanic when designing an ability for the fighter is to crowd his swift/immediate action economy with cool things. examples could include:
(off-topic)
Invincible Bravery:
Prerequisites: Bravery +3, CON 19
Benefit: You may use your Fortitude bonus in place of another saving throw bonus when making a saving throw as an immediate action.
Improved Combat Expertise:
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, INT 15
Benefit: When an opponent hits you with a melee attack, you may apply your dodge bonus from your combat expertise feat as an immediate action. If this would cause your AC to exceed the attack roll, the attack is negated. The penalty to your attack rolls lasts until the end of your next turn.
Normal: You must decide to use combat expertise on your turn.
Improved Critical Focus:
Prerequisites: Critical Focus, CHA 15
Benefit: You may automatically confirm a critical hit as an immediate action.
Improved Strike Back:
Prerequisites: Strike Back
Benefit: After a foe attacks you from reach you may take an attack of opportunity upon him as an immediate action.
Normal: You must ready an action to use the strike back feat.
Two-Weapon Combat Reflexes:
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Two-Weapon Fighting, DX 17
Benefit: When making an attack of opportunity, you may instead attack with both your primary and secondary weapons, or both sides of your double weapon, as an immediate action. You take the standard -2 to both attacks when using this feat. This counts as two attacks of opportunity.
Normal: You may only make one attack of opportunity per opportunity.
...which gets me thinking about a way to make the fighter a better Ready Action holder... hmm...