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I'm attempting a little tweak to the base fighter class to make it more, shall we say, attractive to my players, without completely overhauling the class itself.
To begin, these are the two additions I've made to the class itself:
Bonus Feats (Ex) At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as Combat Feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”
(1) By spending 5 minutes in complex exercises and martial drills for every bonus feat he wishes to change, a fighter can choose to learn new bonus feats in place of any number of fighter bonus feats he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feats in exchange for the new ones. The old feats cannot be ones that were used as prerequisites for another feat, prestige class, or other ability, and he must still meet the prerequisites of the new bonus feats. Though there is no limit as to how many times the fighter may change his bonus feats, he must wait at least 8 hours before doing so again.
(2) Martial Training (Ex) Starting at 1st level, a fighter is able to grasp the complexities of martial combat with more ease than most. He may treat his base attack bonus as his fighter level + 2 for the purpose of qualifying for feats with the Combat descriptor. For every five fighter levels he attains (5th, 10th, and 15th), he counts his level as 1 higher.
Now, martial training is simply designed to allow the fighter to pick up certain combat feats earlier than any other martial class by virtue of counting his base attack bonus as a few points higher. By making it 'fighter level + 2' as opposed to simply adding two to the character's base attack bonus, it makes it less attractive for dipping.
The change to the bonus feats section is where the "Vancian" part of this fighter comes from. Effectively, it gives the fighter a pool of bonus feats to change once in an 8 hour period. I know there is a more elegant way to do this however first drafts need to be plowed through. I was toying with an idea to have a 'floating' bonus feat that the fighter could change on the fly X/day, but it seemed needlessly complex.
I'd appreciate any comments, concerns and especially criticism with these changes!
This looks pretty sweet. The retraining effect lets the fighter be prepared for the situation like a wizard, tooling themselves out for what they expect to fight and stopping them from becoming obsolete due to a change in enemy type.
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Different...but to be honest, giving the fighter an extra few skill ranks and class skills, and a Good Will save would be more than enough to redeem the class more than fully.
This looks pretty sweet. The retraining effect lets the fighter be prepared for the situation like a wizard, tooling themselves out for what they expect to fight and stopping them from becoming obsolete due to a change in enemy type.
That was the basic idea, and really, inspiration. One of the wizard's greatest strengths, besides having some pretty awesome spells, is that, with a little foresight and knowledge, they can pretty much tailor their spells prepared to deal with nearly anything. While this change to the fighter won't give him that sort of versatility, it would go a long way to simulate a very martially skilled warrior and allow shifting tactics.
I was thinking of shifting the capstone ability to not only make them great with a single weapon but also allow them to do something interesting with that slew of bonus feats. Maybe change them as a full-round action, the ability to X/day switch a feat out as a immediate action, something or other like that.
Different...but to be honest, giving the fighter an extra few skill ranks and class skills, and a Good Will save would be more than enough to redeem the class more than fully.
Perhaps, though I don't know which class skills outside of the ones they now have really scream 'fighter' and I don't know why they should have Good Will saves outside of the fact that it sucks when you get dominated. I'd much rather see some circumstantial bonuses to their saving throws, such as specialized training against magic or something of the sort, then just giving them a blanket boost to one of their saving throws like that.
What I do is to improve bravery. Now bravery gives a +2 instead of a +1. And everytime the bonus increase (level 6,10,14,18) the fighter can choose a condition for the paladin mercies. He add his bbravery bonus in saves agaisnt that conition.
I did something similar, but I changed the name to Fight On(!) and made it full immunities to conditions from the mercies list. I also mad any numerical replacements for it through archetypes (like with the archer) double their numbers but only gave it every other bravery progression. So the archer would still end up with it's perception bonus as normal, but it would recieve half the immunities of the core fighter.
ThatEvilGuy - reminds me of the warblades martial ability which lets him reassign feats to other weapons - I love it.
What I do is to improve bravery. Now bravery gives a +2 instead of a +1. And everytime the bonus increase (level 6,10,14,18) the fighter can choose a condition for the paladin mercies. He add his bbravery bonus in saves agaisnt that conition.
That's a pretty elegant solution, Nicos.
What I do is to improve bravery. Now bravery gives a +2 instead of a +1. And everytime the bonus increase (level 6,10,14,18) the fighter can choose a condition for the paladin mercies. He add his bbravery bonus in saves agaisnt that conition.
This, I like.
Different...but to be honest, giving the fighter an extra few skill ranks and class skills, and a Good Will save would be more than enough to redeem the class more than fully.Perhaps, though I don't know which class skills outside of the ones they now have really scream 'fighter' and I don't know why they should have Good Will saves outside of the fact that it sucks when you get dominated. I'd much rather see some circumstantial bonuses to their saving throws, such as specialized training against magic or something of the sort, then just giving them a blanket boost to one of their saving throws like that.
Good Will saves - because it takes rigorous self-discipline and determination (which basically means willpower) to get that well-trained with weapons. Fighters in 1st and 2nd Ed had very good saves against spells, the nearest equivelant, it's only 3.X that nerfed them.
Skills - Diplomacy (because actually professional soldiers are pretty good at finding ways to avoid having to fight), Heal (you have to tend to fallen comrades), Knowledge (geography) (you need to know how to use terrain in battle, and you've been around), Knowledge (nobility) (you have to know the hierarchy of command, and most social castes were based on military might), Perception (you stand guard a lot), Sense Motive (you need to identify what people are about, and watch his eyes in a fight to see what he's thinking).
What I do is to improve bravery. Now bravery gives a +2 instead of a +1. And everytime the bonus increase (level 6,10,14,18) the fighter can choose a condition for the paladin mercies. He add his bbravery bonus in saves agaisnt that conition.
I like this specific change very much.
Good Will saves - because it takes rigorous self-discipline and determination (which basically means willpower) to get that well-trained with weapons. Fighters in 1st and 2nd Ed had very good saves against spells, the nearest equivelant, it's only 3.X that nerfed them.
Skills - Diplomacy (because actually professional soldiers are pretty good at finding ways to avoid having to fight), Heal (you have to tend to fallen comrades), Knowledge (geography) (you need to know how to use terrain in battle, and you've been around), Knowledge (nobility) (you have to know the hierarchy of command, and most social castes were based on military might), Perception (you stand guard a lot), Sense Motive (you need to identify what people are about, and watch his eyes in a fight to see what he's thinking).
I agree with Sense Motive and Perception. As far as nobility goes, ranks in Profession (soldier) should cover things like military ranks and chain of command. Geography is arguably necessary. IMO, the basic way to avoid fighting as a fighter is Intimidate ("Stand down or I'll gut you!" style diplomacy) and Heal can be used untrained. With a healer's kit, a few ranks and an above average Wisdom, you can perform first aid (DC 15) by taking 10. Useful at low levels, certainly, but not essential to being a fighter.
Good Will saves for a fighter still doesn't feel right, but I see where you're coming from. If I was going to go back to the 1E/2E model, it would be a blanket boost on saving throws vs. spells and spell-like abilities instead of Bravery. It'd also be a neat synergy with the dwarven bonus as they tend to be the archetypal fighter.
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Alright, here is the first draft of the revision. Admittedly it is more powerful than the base fighter, but how much more?
Some take up arms for glory, wealth, or revenge. Others do battle to prove themselves, to protect others, or because they know nothing else. Still others learn the ways of weaponcraft to hone their bodies in battle and prove their mettle in the forge of war. Lords of the battlefield, fighters are a disparate lot, training with many weapons or just one, perfecting the uses of armor, learning the fighting techniques of exotic masters, and studying the art of combat, all to shape themselves into living weapons. Far more than mere thugs, these skilled warriors reveal the true deadliness of their weapons, turning hunks of metal into arms capable of taming kingdoms, slaughtering monsters, and rousing the hearts of armies. Soldiers, knights, hunters, and artists of war, fighters are unparalleled champions, and woe to those who dare stand against them.
Role: Fighters excel at combat—defeating their enemies, controlling the flow of battle, and surviving such sorties themselves. While their specific weapons and methods grant them a wide variety of tactics, few can match fighters for sheer battle prowess.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.
Starting Wealth: 5d6 x 10 gp (average 175gp.) In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less.
The fighter's class skills are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks Per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
The following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).
Bonus Feats
At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as Combat Feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”
By spending 5 minutes in complex exercises and martial drills for every bonus feat he wishes to change, a fighter can choose to learn new bonus feats in place of any number of fighter bonus feats he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feats in exchange for the new ones. The old feats cannot be ones that were used as prerequisites for another feat, prestige class, or other ability, and he must still meet the prerequisites of the new bonus feats. Though there is no limit as to how many times the fighter may change his bonus feats, he must wait at least 8 hours before doing so again.
Mettle (Ex)
Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on all saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.
Armor Training (Ex)
Same as Core fighter.
Weapon Training (Ex)
Same as Core fighter.
Armor Mastery (Ex)
Same as Core fighter.
War Master (Ex)
At 20th level, a fighter picks one weapon group that he chose for weapon training, such as the heavy blades, axes, or bows. Any attacks made with those weapons automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example) and he cannot be disarmed while wielding those weapons.
Feedback and criticism required!
I agree with Sense Motive and Perception. As far as nobility goes, ranks in Profession (soldier) should cover things like military ranks and chain of command.Good Will saves - because it takes rigorous self-discipline and determination (which basically means willpower) to get that well-trained with weapons. Fighters in 1st and 2nd Ed had very good saves against spells, the nearest equivelant, it's only 3.X that nerfed them.
Skills - Diplomacy (because actually professional soldiers are pretty good at finding ways to avoid having to fight), Heal (you have to tend to fallen comrades), Knowledge (geography) (you need to know how to use terrain in battle, and you've been around), Knowledge (nobility) (you have to know the hierarchy of command, and most social castes were based on military might), Perception (you stand guard a lot), Sense Motive (you need to identify what people are about, and watch his eyes in a fight to see what he's thinking).
Heraldry, my friend - knowing WHO you are fighting can be important.
Geography is arguably necessary.
Gotta know terrain and where to march the army.
IMO, the basic way to avoid fighting as a fighter is Intimidate ("Stand down or I'll gut you!" style diplomacy)
Yeah, that works against NON-soldiers, against the real deal it's a good way of starting a fight, not avoiding one. No, Diplomacy, and here's why:
Back in the middle ages, mercenary armies were hired to fight one another regularly. Mercenaries are practical guys, they don't like bleeding if they don't have to. So if two mercenary armies were to face one another, the leaders would get together at the Tavern the night before the battle, and decide who was likely to win or lose there and then over a few pints of ale. They figure out the likely casualties, then have their men draw lots to decide who was "killed" and has to leave the army and not draw their pay. Then report back the outcome of the battle.
That's Diplomacy, when used between men of war and action.
and Heal can be used untrained. With a healer's kit, a few ranks and an above average Wisdom, you can perform first aid (DC 15) by taking 10.
After you did that a while, you'd learn the skill though.
Useful at low levels, certainly, but not essential to being a fighter.
I'm not talking about "essential" I am talking about "would be likely to know something about it."
Good Will saves for a fighter still doesn't feel right, but I see where you're coming from. If I was going to go back to the 1E/2E model, it would be a blanket boost on saving throws vs. spells and spell-like abilities instead of Bravery. It'd also be a neat synergy with the dwarven bonus as they tend to be the archetypal fighter.
How about just make the Bravery bonus a Will save bonus?
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ThatEvilGuy,
fighter is a great class. i like your ideas here. but i think being able to retrain every fighter bonus feat is a little much.
a similar system i am toying with (which i am tentatively calling Tactical Feats) instead allows one fighter feat per four fighter levels to be 'swappable' (like yours but faster and more limited) and rewards a higher intelligence fighter with a greater versatility:
Tactical Feats (new class feature)
A 4th level fighter may choose one of his fighter bonus feats to hereafter be considered a tactical feat. He may swap this feat out a number of times per day equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1/day). Swapping out one or more tactical feats is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, and he may not use this action to swap out more tactical feats than his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). A fighter may swap for any combat feat whose prerequisites he meets (or will meet as a result of the swap) provided the feat he is swapping out does not serve as a prerequisite for any other feat (that is not simultaneously being swapped out). At 8th level, and again every four fighter levels thereafter, another of the fighter's bonus feats is considered a tactical feat.
though now that i'm looking at it, i like that your 'vancian' proposal may be used in an unlimited fashion at the expense of taking longer to swap (your 5 minutes vs. my standard action). i might be willing to adopt your model if there could exist a way to reward a higher intelligence fighter in doing so. maybe, a fighter's number of 'vancian' feats may not exceed his intelligence bonus (minimum 1)?
that would mean a 4th/8th/12th/16th/20th level fighter would need an intelligence of (any)/14/16/18/20 (respectively) to get full use out of this proposed feature. hmm...
Lots of good stuff
Well said on the skills front, consider me convinced for everything but Heal. Doing it long enough will get you skilled, hence investing more skill points over the course of your career. ;)
ThatEvilGuy,
fighter is a great class. i like your ideas here. but i think being able to retrain every fighter bonus feat is a little much.
a similar system i am toying with (which i am tentatively calling Tactical Feats) instead allows one fighter feat per four fighter levels to be 'swappable' (like yours but faster and more limited) and rewards a higher intelligence fighter with a greater versatility:
Tactical Feats (new class feature)
** spoiler omitted **though now that i'm looking at it, i like that your 'vancian' proposal may be used in an unlimited fashion at the expense of taking longer to swap (your 5 minutes vs. my standard action). i might be willing to adopt your model if there could exist a way to reward a higher intelligence fighter in doing so. maybe, a fighter's number of 'vancian' feats may not exceed his intelligence bonus (minimum 1)?
that would mean a 4th/8th/12th/16th/20th level fighter would need an intelligence of (any)/14/16/18/20 (respectively) to get full use out of this proposed feature. hmm...
Another thing to keep in mind with my "Vancian" model is that while you can swap out a bunch of bonus feats with your montage of martial might, you can only do the switch out once every 8 hours.
If you wanted to tether Intelligence to that model, instead of flagging a certain number of feats as "Vancian", thus having a pool of bonus feats that can, and can't be switched out, just limit the amount of feats you can switch out at once. So a fighter with 14 Intelligence would be able to spend a maximum of 10 minutes retraining his bonus feats (and thus only changing 2), while a fighter with a 20 Intelligence could put in 25 minutes and switch out 5.
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so like:
Bonus Feats (alternate):
At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”
Upon reaching 4th level, every four levels he , a fighter can choose to learn new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned . the old feats cannot used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability . .
I love the principle of whats going on here. I'd do it a little differently though. I might devise a non-tangible "spellbook" of feats known. This number would be level dependent, with a finite number known, with a maximum number that can be prepared for the day.
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I love the principle of whats going on here. I'd do it a little differently though. I might devise a non-tangible "spellbook" of feats known. This number would be level dependent, with a finite number known, with a maximum number that can be prepared for the day.
the elegance of this proposal is it's simplicity, especially in terms of bookkeeping and system mastery. under this system, which keeps feats as-written intact, a vancian fighter's 'spellbook' is a function of his ability scores. since, for example, he cannot bypass prerequisites, he would need a 13 intelligence to train any of the 'improved' feats that are based on combat expertise. further, it allows a fighter character a chance to 'try out' feats that he may later take permanently (or semi-permanently) without necessitating a high degree of premeditation.
that said, i think the original proposal, that all fighter bonus feats are re-trainable, is too generous. i would rather see this flexibility kick in at a slightly later level (like spellcasting for a full-BAB class), not only to encourage class loyalty (and discourage 'dipping'), but more importantly to offset the power increase this proposal grants to a class that is already a top-of-the-line melee class.
i think the coolest side-effect is that as 'bonus feats' will be able to stretch farther, this could in effect 'free up' the character-level feat slots (at 1st, 3rd, 5th, etc) for more interesting selections, thus indirectly assisting the fighter's out-of-combat utility.
that said, i think the original proposal, that all fighter bonus feats are re-trainable, is too generous. i would rather see this flexibility kick in at a slightly later level (like spellcasting for a full-BAB class), not only to encourage class loyalty (and discourage 'dipping'), but more importantly to offset the power increase this proposal grants to a class that is already a top-of-the-line melee class.i think the coolest side-effect is that as 'bonus feats' will be able to stretch farther, this could in effect 'free up' the character-level feat slots (at 1st, 3rd, 5th, etc) for more interesting selections, thus indirectly assisting the fighter's out-of-combat utility.
In retrospect, I agree that having ALL bonus feats being retrainable daily is too great as a basic part of the class, but it would be an interesting feat/ability to add in Mythic play.
I do like the idea of limiting it to the fighter's Intelligence modifier in some way and perhaps hard-wiring it into a higher level, such as 4th like you proposed above. 4th level is where a fighter gains access to his first fighter specific feat so it would make sense that it is the level where he starts being able to be more flexible.
Another idea is to set up bonus feats, that act like the basic fighter bonus feats, and feat slots that are more like a "pool" which the fighter can change on a daily basis, like a wizard and his spell slots. Perhaps 1st, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th bonus feats are "modular" feats and 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th are locked in regular bonus feats. Call it "Tactical Training" instead. That would leave the fighter with 5 actual bonus feats and 6 feats that can be changed around once every 8 hours.
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though i prefer to somehow roll in the vancian concept into the already existing class feature "Bonus Feats," specifically under the section where it lets you permanently retrain one feat at 4th/8th/12th/16th/20th, in which this proposal essentially greatly liberates that aspect of it, one could conceive a re-ordered class table, explicitly stating at which levels this privilege (with a new fancy title!) unlocks, as follows:
The Tactical Training Fighter
1 - Bonus Feat
2 - Bonus Feat, Bravery +1
3 - Armor Training I
4 -
5 - Weapon Training I
6 - Bonus Feat, Bravery +2
7 - Armor Training II
8 -
9 - Weapon Training II
10- Bonus Feat, Bravery +3
11- Armor Training III
12-
13- Weapon Training III
14- Bonus Feat, Bravery +4
15- Armor Training IV
16-
17- Weapon Training IV
18- Bonus Feat, Bravery +5
19- Armor Mastery
20- , Weapon Mastery
that said, i would caution strongly against handing out this 'modular' feature to a 1st level fighter. here is why: once you have a modular feat, you can re-train it to be current to the highest-prereq feat you have access to at any point in your career. for example, the above fighter, at 12th level (with 16 INT*), will have a total of 3 modular feats which he may use to re-train into 3 high-powered high-prereq (think BAB 11+) feats if he so chooses, even though the feat slots were originally acquired at levels 4 and 8. this is a significant power boost!
*i therefore recommend incentivized investment in a mental stat (INT) to counterbalance this power boost.
final note: i am not completely sold on the "tactical training" name...
Just as a reference, Trailblazer (Bad Axe Games) for d20 had some great additions to the base fighter.
Also, Mike Mearl's Iron Heroes has a nice starting point for powering up the fighter. The Man-at-Arms class(basically a fighter) has the "Wild Feat" much like the OP's.
Mmm, yes. The dreaded multipurpose dip.
To deal with a few of those problems, but not all, in regards to combat feat dippage, forcing the fighter to treat his base attack bonus to qualify for said feats as his fighter level would at least lock off the higher level abilities.
Tactical Training is sort of generic I admit.
Just as a reference, Trailblazer (Bad Axe Games) for d20 had some great additions to the base fighter.
Also, Mike Mearl's Iron Heroes has a nice starting point for powering up the fighter. The Man-at-Arms class(basically a fighter) has the "Wild Feat" much like the OP's.
I've heard that Iron Heroes is pretty solid for the martial crowd, but I've never gone over it before.
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actually, the way Bonus Feats is written in Core, with the permanent retrain at 4/8/12/16/20, there is no mechanism that enforces that the exchanges be made retroactively-level-appropriate. interesting, no? and so i see a fighter who uses all his tactical feats to, say, pick up several Critical Feats (or whatever) as not too great an abuse.
what raises my concern is another character who splashes a level of fighter, then uses the 1st-level tactical feat gained there as open-door-access to all sorts of high-prereq feats, with the only caveat being only being able to use one at a time. to me, this privilege belongs to the dedicated fighter - and by that i mean one who is at least 4th level.
this is tantamount to allowing somebody to splash monk and granting full Ki Pool privileges as if their effective monk level was at all times equal to their character level. fighter is already an awesome dip for weapon and armor proficiencies, BAB and fortitude boost, and a bonus feat. it needn't also open the door to every high-prereq combat feat in the book!
final thought:
it is unclear how liberal the intent is in the parameter of retraining. if i am an 8th level fighter, am i allowed to retrain 2 bonus feats every day? can i eventually, 2-per-day, retrain my entire list of bonus feats? or, (as at 8th level fighter has accumulated a total of 5 bonus feats through normal advancement), must three of my feats be 'set in stone' leaving free-play for only two feat slots?
i assume the latter, but the proposed language, upon re-reading, is unclear as to answering this question.
Thank you for the compliment rainzax. I whipped this up in about a half hour.
Bonus Feats
At 1st level a fighter selects two feats from those listed as Combat Feats. These comprise his list of bonus feats know. Once a feat is selected it cannot be changed. Once per day when he has had 8 hours of sleep, the fighter can practice for one hour to prepare one feat from his list of bonus feats known. He counts as having this prepared feat until he practices again, in addition to those gained from normal advancement.
Each time a fighter gains a level he selects one feat from those listed as Combat Feats and adds it to his list of bonus feats known. When he practices, he may prepare one additional feat for every two fighter levels he posesses.
(At this time I do not have the mental focus to include language to leave feat "slots" open for the purpose of filling them later in the day.)
Knack (this replaces Bravery)
Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on one items selected from the following list: Fortitude, Reflex, Will, Bonus feats known, or one skill of the fighter's choice (the skill is also added to his list of class skills). Once a selection is made it cannot be changed. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.
(This language used isn't perfect, but I wanted it to be short and simple. Suggestions welcome.)
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Ciaran Barnes,
maybe instead of restricting access to bonus feats via 'spellbooking' you could just, as a DM, restrict the access a player has to cherrypicking feats by saying "core only" or "core and advanced only", and take two different tacks to expansion beyond that (into the 'ultimates'):
1) outside of "core", the fighter must see the feat in action used by somebody else and must succeed a Spellcraft (Martialcraft?) to 'understand' it.
2) the fighter must seek out a master to teach him a feat from 'advanced' or 'ultimate', which could be a one-day thing or a protracted affair, with or without a skill check, as you like.
i think the whole "feats in your repertoire" as differentiated from "feats you have currently trained" gets a little to bookkeepy for what most people want from the fighter class. also, suddenly we are talking about multiple feats from a single level dip, which is problematic imho. this does solve the prereq-bypass issue of retraining, however. if you go this route, i would grant 1 'extra' bonus feat per INT modifier (minimum 1), again to split the difference over opportunity cost in stat investment. is this too good for an INT-caster dip now?...
ps. maybe check out my proposal for an alternate Bravery?
Lots of good stuffWell said on the skills front, consider me convinced for everything but Heal. Doing it long enough will get you skilled, hence investing more skill points over the course of your career. ;)
Fair comment. I guess I just like to stick to "Keep It Simple" and make minimal changes rather than do complete rewrites.
Ciaran Barnes,
maybe instead of restricting access to bonus feats via 'spellbooking' you could just, as a DM, restrict the access a player has to cherrypicking feats by saying "core only" or "core and advanced only", and take two different tacks to expansion beyond that (into the 'ultimates'):1) outside of "core", the fighter must see the feat in action used by somebody else and must succeed a Spellcraft (Martialcraft?) to 'understand' it.
2) the fighter must seek out a master to teach him a feat from 'advanced' or 'ultimate', which could be a one-day thing or a protracted affair, with or without a skill check, as you like.
i think the whole "feats in your repertoire" as differentiated from "feats you have currently trained" gets a little to bookkeepy for what most people want from the fighter class. also, suddenly we are talking about multiple feats from a single level dip, which is problematic imho. this does solve the prereq-bypass issue of retraining, however. if you go this route, i would grant 1 'extra' bonus feat per INT modifier (minimum 1), again to split the difference over opportunity cost in stat investment. is this too good for an INT-caster dip now?...
ps. maybe check out my proposal for an alternate Bravery?
A reasonable approach, especially considering the wizard can learn new spells from a spallbook. I'm sure there's a way to work out learning new tricks from other warriors (perhaps using the downtime system from Ult Campaign?), but I do have some concerns. Thematically it fits, but there would have to be limits of some kind. Perhaps the limit is one extra feat per level, or there is a GP cost, or heavy GM moderation. The other thing is that feats and spells are quite different. Feat - as a general rule - are active 24 hours a day, regardless of level. Spells have durations and ranges. The equivalent I can imagine is the fighter being able to X times per day use a feat for X number of rounds. Just some thoughts. My version was a first draft, and I think the fighter needs a little love (not too much).
As far as your version of bravery, I like the prospect of applying the bonus to multiple effects. Bravery as it stands is quite underwhelming. I dont like your later level uses so much.
If you wanted to retain a certain "spellbook", "tactics manual", "secret tomes of martial badassery" vibe for the feats you can switch around, just pull a tweak out of the wizard's class:
Yes, the language is horrible and needs to be spiffied up some, but the spirit is there at least.
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Ciaran Barnes,
how about:
Training Repertoire (new class feature):
Upon advancing to 4th level, and again every even fighter level thereafter (at 6th, 8th, 10th, etc), a fighter selects two bonus fighter feats (instead of one) for which he qualifies from the list of combat feats, and adds these to his training repertoire. Bonus feats acquired from earlier fighter levels are hereafter considered to be added to this same repertoire. A fighter does not automatically gain use of feats that are added to his training repertoire. Instead, he must spend 5 minutes per feat in complex exercises and martial drills to prepare each feat he wishes to have trained for that day, up to his total allotment of bonus feat slots. A feat from his training repertoire that is prepared this way may be used as normal until he replaces it with another feat prepared from his repertoire. Though there is no limit as to how many times the fighter may change his bonus feats, he must wait at least 8 hours before doing so again.
also:
Combat Feat Mastery (new feat):
Prerequisites: Training Repertoire
Benefit: Select a number of combat feats equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) for which you qualify to add to your training repertoire. You may prepare these feats as normal using that ability. This feat may be selected multiple times, each time selecting new combat feats to add to your training repertoire.
so, for example:
Vance, a 6th-level 14-INT fighter who has taken Combat Feat Mastery once, has a 8-feat repertoire out of which he may daily prepare 4 combat feats from.
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For a second I thought the title was "The Vatican Fighter"
If someone wants to write that up I will work it into my next campaign. Make sure they are proficient with silly hats.
And halberds.
rainzax, that seems to accomplish a similar purpose. Yours is two feats per two levels, and mine is usable at first level. It looks usable.
Some take up arms for glory, wealth, or revenge. Others do battle to prove themselves, to protect others, or because they know nothing else. Still others learn the ways of weaponcraft to hone their bodies in battle and prove their mettle in the forge of war. Lords of the battlefield, fighters are a disparate lot, training with many weapons or just one, perfecting the uses of armor, learning the fighting techniques of exotic masters, and studying the art of combat, all to shape themselves into living weapons. Far more than mere thugs, these skilled warriors reveal the true deadliness of their weapons, turning hunks of metal into arms capable of taming kingdoms, slaughtering monsters, and rousing the hearts of armies. Soldiers, knights, hunters, and artists of war, fighters are unparalleled champions, and woe to those who dare stand against them.
Role: Fighters excel at combat—defeating their enemies, controlling the flow of battle, and surviving such sorties themselves. While their specific weapons and methods grant them a wide variety of tactics, few can match fighters for sheer battle prowess.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.
Starting Wealth: 5d6 x 10 gp (average 175gp.) In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less.
Class Skills
The fighter's class skills are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (nobility), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks Per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
The following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).
Martial Training (Ex)
A fighter is able to grasp the complexities of martial combat with ease. Starting at 1st level he may treat his base attack bonus as his fighter level + 2 for the purpose of qualifying for feats with the Combat descriptor. For every five level he attains, he counts his level as 1 higher.
Bonus Feats (Ex)
Starting at 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter (6th, 10th, and so on), a fighter gains a bonus feat. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as Combat Feats, sometimes also called "fighter bonus feats".
Mettle (Ex)
Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on saving throws against spells, spell-like and supernatural abilities. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.
Armor Training (Ex)
Same as Core fighter.
Tactical Feats (Ex)
Starting at 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter gains a bonus feat known as a "tactical feat". These feats must be selected from those listed as Combat Feats.
By spending 5 minutes in complex exercises and martial drills for every tactical feat he wishes to change, a fighter can choose to learn new tactical feats in place of any number of tactical feats he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the tactical feats in exchange for the new ones. The old feats cannot be ones that were used as prerequisites for another feat, prestige class, or other ability, and he must still meet the prerequisites of the new tactical feats. Though there is no limit as to how many times the fighter may change his tactical feats, he must wait at least 8 hours before doing so again.
Weapon Training (Ex)
Same as Core fighter.
Armor Mastery (Ex)
At 19th level, a fighter gains Damage Reduction 5/— whenever he is wearing armor or using a shield. This stacks with the Damage Reduction gained from wearing adamantine armor.
Weapons Master (Ex)
At 20th level, a fighter picks one weapon group that he chose for weapon training, such as the heavy blades, axes, or bows. Any attacks made with those weapons automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example) and he cannot be disarmed while wielding those weapons.
I just let my fighters swap around their Weapon Focus/Specialization etc. feats within their Weapon Training class like what Warblades did/do and then buff up Bravery a little bit. Though, I do like the idea of having Bonus Feats be a sort of feat spellbook. Makes a fighter feel more like the "master of feats" that they seem to be pushing. I also really like the
Starting at 4th level a fighter chooses 3 bonus Combat feats that he qualifies for. At each level after 4th (every 2 levels/3 levels) he gains two new Combat feats and adds it to this list. The fighter may only choose Combat feats from this list when retraining.
idea, because it restricts choice so the fighter has to actually be selective at what he's good at, in a broad sense, but it allows him to pick a few feats that are more meta-gamey. Having all of these bonus feats interchangeable also makes it so the fighter COULD use his normal advancement feats on things that'll protect him or help him out in other ways, like Fortified Armor Training, Iron Will, etc. and not feel like he's wasted a level that could've been used for pre-reqs. I also like Figher level +2 for BAB when applied to feat requirements, though I'm not sure if these would just leave other martial classes too far behind.
On the other hand, Fighters ONLY get feats as their class abilities, really, outside of static bonuses to some other things. This system would mean that feats are the fighter's class ability, and instead of Rage Powers or Rogue Talents, he gets to be a master grappler today and a power attacking brute the next, just because he's the most trained martial character out there.
Shameless bump!
I would pay money for something like this fully fleshed out and balanced.
I miss Tome of Battle so much.. at least the ideas behind it
I would pay money for something like this fully fleshed out and balanced.
I miss Tome of Battle so much.. at least the ideas behind it
Speaking of "money", "paying" and "Tome of Battle", check this out.
maybe add?:
Finally, a number of times per day equal to 3 plus the fighter's Intelligence modifier (minimum once/day), a fighter may instead swap a feat as standard action.
I'd rather do something that was based on fighter level with a maximum number of times per day equal to the fighter's Intelligence mod than 3+. With the tactical feat option and a 14 Int with your suggestion, a fighter could swap out all his tactical feats in less than a minute giving him huge advantages for fights.
I'd rather do something that was based on fighter level with a maximum number of times per day equal to the fighter's Intelligence mod than 3+. With the tactical feat option and a 14 Int with your suggestion, a fighter could swap out all his tactical feats in less than a minute giving him huge advantages for fights.maybe add?:
Finally, a number of times per day equal to 3 plus the fighter's Intelligence modifier (minimum once/day), a fighter may instead swap a feat as standard action.
Isn't that the point?
Isn't that the point?I'd rather do something that was based on fighter level with a maximum number of times per day equal to the fighter's Intelligence mod than 3+. With the tactical feat option and a 14 Int with your suggestion, a fighter could swap out all his tactical feats in less than a minute giving him huge advantages for fights.maybe add?:
Finally, a number of times per day equal to 3 plus the fighter's Intelligence modifier (minimum once/day), a fighter may instead swap a feat as standard action.
Yes and no.
There's a difference between the advantage that, say, 25 minutes of prep time gives you and the advantage that a minute does. Also, it begs the question does it circumvent the restriction on the 8 hours between retraining a tactical feat slot? If it doesn't, what is the point of the main ability if the fighter can just swap out as a standard action anyways?
I played around with a similar mechanic with my first idea but feel that, ultimately, it just gives the character way too much freedom unless there's some sort of limit on what feats can be chosen and that starts to add extra paperwork. It already does in the sense that it gives the fighter the same advantage that the wizard has, without a need to pay for it in any way: every splatbook that comes out and new Combat feat that's released, there are more free options.
I'm wondering if a limit should be placed on the tactical feats ability, and how to implement it without going too meta.
I don't see the large picture benefit of making this intelligence based.
It's moreso to represent that smarter fighters are more capable when it comes to having a variety of tactics in their martial repertoire and to give a bonus to all those fighters who have to snag Combat Expertise to be able to use maneuvers. Gives them more of a reason to have an Int higher than 10. That's kind of weak, I know.
If anything, a mechanic like that wouldn't make much sense tied into another stat. I could see Wisdom (the cunning of a warrior and being able to switch tactics on the fly) maybe but Intelligence works from that angle.
Wisdom makes just as much sense as intelligence IMO. For that matter, I think the int requirement for combat expertise, and other "improved" feats, makes little sense. All it does keep many characters from even attempting certain combat maneuvers (same goes for the strength series of improved feats). If anything, the feat should lose the ability score requirement, and instead give a benefit of some kind to characters with a higher number in that ability score. I feel the game would be better for encouraging use actions aside from cast a spell or full-attack. PF has improved combat maneuvers, but further progress needs to be made.
If your going to give them an intelligence requirement, I would suggest some kind of synergy in the mid range levels. Even a bonus to initiative based off your intelligence modifier or something. The fighter doesn't really need to be made more MAD, so you really have to figure out how to repay Peter, so to speak.
At the moment my current changes are as follows:
Anything that relies on Intelligence is more or less just ideas being thrown around. I'm still not sure if I should, just so that there isn't a default "this is the way to do it" fighter.
I do agree there should be more incentive for the fighter to go different routes than the Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization chains along with Power Attack, though I do feel that being able to swap out feats gives them that edge, where they can choose more situational tactical feat chains on a given day and not be penalized for not taking the optimal path.
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and, the vancian system as proposed does implicitly incentivize investment in INT, WIS, CHA, because some very cool feats are locked behind a decent attribute in these scores, and 'vance' has access to all of them so long as he meets those pre-req's.
the question to me is whether that incentive system ought to be not only more explicitly written in, but also if reward differentiation between dumping (ex. 7 INT) and moderation (ex. 10 INT) ought to be (dis-)incentivized as well.
I like this, ThatEvilGuy. It's cool.
I do think I like Nicos's bravery change more than mettle, somehow it feels righter to me.
And I agree with rainzax, not sure you need a bunch of mental score requirement abilities, when the vancian feat selection sort of automatically incentivizes being slightly more moderate in ability score distribution.
Looking forward to a final version!
This looks pretty sweet. The retraining effect lets the fighter be prepared for the situation like a wizard, tooling themselves out for what they expect to fight and stopping them from becoming obsolete due to a change in enemy type.That was the basic idea, and really, inspiration. One of the wizard's greatest strengths, besides having some pretty awesome spells, is that, with a little foresight and knowledge, they can pretty much tailor their spells prepared to deal with nearly anything. While this change to the fighter won't give him that sort of versatility, it would go a long way to simulate a very martially skilled warrior and allow shifting tactics.
I was thinking of shifting the capstone ability to not only make them great with a single weapon but also allow them to do something interesting with that slew of bonus feats. Maybe change them as a full-round action, the ability to X/day switch a feat out as a immediate action, something or other like that.
Different...but to be honest, giving the fighter an extra few skill ranks and class skills, and a Good Will save would be more than enough to redeem the class more than fully.Perhaps, though I don't know which class skills outside of the ones they now have really scream 'fighter' and I don't know why they should have Good Will saves outside of the fact that it sucks when you get dominated. I'd much rather see some circumstantial bonuses to their saving throws, such as specialized training against magic or something of the sort, then just giving them a blanket boost to one of their saving throws like that.
You may want to think about letting the fighter change their weapon training group as well.
I actually think that is is more versatile than you may think when you start thinking about combat styles and manuvers.
For your base feats, pick a balance between archery and melee, say falchion and longbow.
If you are in tight quarters, go with improving your melee, and maybe get some useful manuver feats.
If you are dealing with ranged or flying enemies, go archery with some melee backup.
If you are using a high crit weapon, like a falchion, take some critical feats.
At high levels, you actually do have quite a bit of flexibility.