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Another thing to consider is, that it may be only a problem for those players who can afford to play through all those APs. At the moment, I'm "only" reading the APs because I don't have a group, but when I think of my old group we probably would have needed at least 2 years to go through a single AP so this theme wouldn't happen at the game table as often as it is in the books. So assuming that I didn't read the AP I don't run I probably wasn't even aware of this coincidence.
Apart from that, I think that Lord Snow is right on the money. Most players aren't used to "lose" anymore and tend to consider it as unfair if it happens. So it would be a real stunt to involve them in events they can't (or arent't supposed to) win for story reasons. On the other hand most AP adventures are all about stopping threats so to have one or two bad things happening in their absence serve to remind them that they simply can't be everywhere.
I understand the criticism, though. It can be hard when such a catastrophe is the reward for you following the plotline aka doing what you are supposed to do by the author. Especially if you don't even have a choice or possibilty to do something against it. Personally, what I would like to see is to have the PC make the choice between different threats. And while they stop one threat letting the other events run their course. I'm not sure though that this is doable within the frame of an AP-format adventure because you would have to use space to describe events the PCs eventually won't have a part in. And it could be equally depressive for the players to know beforehand that there will happen bad things they can't stop (If we stop the assassination attempt on the king, noone will be there to stop the orc invasion).
Creative Director
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Well, except for the first two APs , where the covers featured the iconics, hasn't the "BBEG" (I hate that term) always been on the cover of AP part six (exception: Jade Regent)?Technically, the genie on part 6 of Legacy of Fire is intended to simply be generic, but it seems that most people treat it as an illustration of the BBEG (as do I). The genie on part 5's cover was likewise initially generic, but has since been retconned into a specific NPC--for the purposes of naming a Reaper mini, at any rate.
Actually... that image was ordered to be the specific big bad end guy... but there was a mixup among the artists and some timing problems that ended up with the BBEG of that AP looking differently than the cover. Which is nice for us, since we were then able to use that image for the generic efreeti illustration.
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Creative Director
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I'm guessing that's the Shattered Star BBEG on the cover? I HATE when they do that., hasn't the "BBEG" (I hate that term)Zaister, out of curiosity, what term would you use?
I understand that putting the 'Main Monster' on the cover pulls in eyeballs, but doesn't it seem like a major spoiler?!
That brings to mind the movie Skyrim which put in it's trailer the scene where a giant alien foot stomping a Ferrari. So when the time comes & some characters got into said Ferrari, you knew they were soon to be paste.
I'm just hoping Art Directors can find something else to pull people into products besides images which give away things from said products.
And the fact that putting a BBEG on a cover is something of a spoiler is not beyond me... but I have ALWAYS viewed that as a necessary evil for illustrating the final installment of an AP. In fact, I think that a lot of GMs get a bit too precious when they hide spoilers like this from the players. After all... movie trailers do this all the time—remember when the Phantom Menace trailers came out and they revealed Darth Maul? That reveal was HUGE in building the excitement and anticipation for the movie. And this goes for any movie—if you don't get at least a glimpse of what's coming, how do you know you're into it and want to see the movie?
Same goes for adventures.
We will continue to illustrate key scenes and "boss monsters" on our covers, because that is simply too valuable a tool for us to drive sales and entice folks into buying our products. Furthermore, it's a GREAT way to build the anticipation... even if the characters don't know who or what the BBEG is until the final fight at the end of the campaign, if the players know or suspect, that can be just as effective foreshadowing.
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The issue here seems to break down into multiple parts, for me.
1) The PCs are built into a location, sometimes even with traits that revolve around that location, and then, around book 4 (sometimes as early as book 2 or 3) spend increasing amounts of time away from that location. Second Darkness really horked me off on this account, as I, as a player, had gotten pretty darn invested in the Golden Goblin and Riddleport, only to leave it / see it wiped out in the beginning of book 2. It felt very bait-and-switch. And gosh, that Profession (gambler) trait sure turned out to be a winner in the remaining 85% of the AP... Curse of the Crimson Throne's visit to the Shoanti also felt entirely off-theme, and more like a traveling sideshow to learn about Shoanti, than anything to do with the actual plot. Thematically, it was as jarring as those little musical interludes in the middle of a Monty Python sketch, where giant feet come down and squish little paper cutout people.
2) Everything you care about will be destroyed. I've heard gamers in all seriousness advise new players not to write family or friends into their backstory, because it just gives the GM ammunition to use against them in some misery porn 'I will destroy everything your character cares about' sort of arms race. It that really the only weapon in a GM's arsenal, to target every NPC or community that your character is even remotely attached to for ruination? If the party decided to go shopping for expensive magic items in the regional capitol in the middle of an invasion on their home town because they wanted better magic items than they could buy in said hometown, then, yeah, logically, their hometown is likely to have taken some hits when they saunter back into town. But for the town to be ravaged while they were riding on the plot choo-choo, welded to the rails and unable to stay and defend the town, that's just cheap.
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I'm guessing that's the Shattered Star BBEG on the cover? I HATE when they do that., hasn't the "BBEG" (I hate that term)Zaister, out of curiosity, what term would you use?
I understand that putting the 'Main Monster' on the cover pulls in eyeballs, but doesn't it seem like a major spoiler?!
That brings to mind the movie Skyrim which put in it's trailer the scene where a giant alien foot stomping a Ferrari. So when the time comes & some characters got into said Ferrari, you knew they were soon to be paste.
I'm just hoping Art Directors can find something else to pull people into products besides images which give away things from said products.
And the fact that putting a BBEG on a cover is something of a spoiler is not beyond me... but I have ALWAYS viewed that as a necessary evil for illustrating the final installment of an AP. In fact, I think that a lot of GMs get a bit too precious when they hide spoilers like this from the players. After all... movie trailers do this all the time—remember when the Phantom Menace trailers came out and they revealed Darth Maul? That reveal was HUGE in building the excitement and anticipation for the movie. And this goes for any movie—if you don't get at least a glimpse of what's coming, how do you know you're into it and want to see the movie?
Same goes for adventures.
We will continue to illustrate key scenes and "boss monsters" on our covers, because that is simply too valuable a tool for us to drive sales and entice folks into buying our products. Furthermore, it's a GREAT way to build the anticipation... even if the characters don't know who or what the BBEG is until the final fight at the end of the campaign, if the players know or suspect, that can be just as effective foreshadowing.
and thats why you're the creative director of Paizo and your average GM is not:) i love having the awesome artwork of the BBEG for exactly these reasons:) keep at it almighty dinosaur, keep at it
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I think there are two related issues here.
It's hard on me as a player if I'm asked to attach to something and then forced to leave it. When we did CotCT we had to quit when the game left Korvosa, because I was invested in Korvosa and just had no interest in two whole modules set elsewhere, doing something entirely unrelated, while my city went to hell.
We dodged this bullet in Second Darkness by making the PCs agents of the Winter Council, but I have heard that it derailed many other groups' campaigns; you attach to the Goblin and then it's gone, and you don't re-attach.
We also had this problem with _Age of Worms_. My player got very invested in Diamond Lake and then the AP left it forever. Later it asked him to invest in Alhastor, and the response was "You have to be kidding, why would I want to go through that again?" (And with good reason, given what happens to Alhastor.)
Our best APs so far have been Kingmaker and Council of Thieves, both of which encourage the PCs to attach and then allow them to stay attached for the entire AP. Speaking for myself as a player, I don't find myself willing to do the "build up a place you care about a lot" thing more than once per AP: blow off the first one and I'm done, frankly. (We knew better than to even attempt Legacy of Fire after the failure of CotCT.)
A separate problem, though they sometimes travel together, is that while it's upsetting to have something you care about destroyed, and it's annoying to be railroaded, it's INFURIATING to be railroaded into having something you care about destroyed. Legacy does this, and then tells you it's your fault. I can't think of a better way for a GM to squander a group's willingness to cooperate! After that's happened once, why are you going to go along the next time? Shattered Star, in my opinion, does this too. For me as a player this is one of the few non-negotiables. You can refrain from railroading; you can railroad me into something fun; but you don't get to force me to do something and then beat on me for doing it.
I know there are groups which are okay with both of these--we're a very diverse lot. But they're recurrent problems for a lot of groups--you can see that in the messageboard threads. I would certainly jump at an AP that promised (a) to maintain the attachments it makes early on, and (b) to railroad the PCs only to do things that are reasonable and have at least a chance to work out, not to do things that end in disaster and humiliation.
Dot.
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I think there are two related issues here.
It's hard on me as a player if I'm asked to attach to something and then forced to leave it. When we did CotCT we had to quit when the game left Korvosa, because I was invested in Korvosa and just had no interest in two whole modules set elsewhere, doing something entirely unrelated, while my city went to hell.
I don't know if there was a problem of communication with the GM or if he hadn't read the adventure well, but the voyage away from Korvosa is hardly unrelated. It was needed to recover a gizmo that would be extremely valuable in the last part of the AP.
If you want to take a modern day example, is like going to another country to buy weapons for a resistance movement.
Or like Franklin going to France in 1776 to get their support to the American revolution.
It is not abandoning your duty, it is doing your duty.
Since we're talking about recurring trends in APs, this is the one I've noticed which is starting to be a bit repetitive: slumbering/disabled/imprisoned evil overlords waiting to return to the world/become unstoppably powerful, with PCs stopping them in the final moment.
Shackled City
Age of Worms
Savage Tide
Rise of the Runelords
Curse of the Crimson Throne
Serpent's Skull
Shattered Star
Legacy of Fire
Kingmaker
Carrion Crown
Mummy's Mask seems like it will be similar.
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Since we're talking about recurring trends in APs, this is the one I've noticed which is starting to be a bit repetitive: slumbering/disabled/imprisoned evil overlords waiting to return to the world/become unstoppably powerful, with PCs stopping them in the final moment.
Neat observation!
Since the beginning, it seems like D&D borrowed a bit from Vance, in that it was often 'more magical' back in the day, and so many of the big epic threats have to be stuff that developed centuries, or even millennia, ago, since the watered down people or lesser magics of the modern day couldn't generate similar threats.
There's always the odd exception, 'though. Iuz was pretty in your face and newly fledged evil, by comparison to ancient Netherese this or Thassilonian that.
An AP dealing with an emergent threat, one involving mere mortal contemporary folk gaining power right in the present day of the AP, and not the return of an ancient buried evil, could be something of a twist. Instead of digging up a lost source of power or awakening a slumbering evil, a new and exciting (and perhaps the slightest bit ill-advised...) line of research at the Arcanamirium (or wherever) could lead to something entirely new and dangerous, that doesn't tie into some ancient prophecy or sleeping prehistoric threat.
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Wait, you mean... like Queen Elvanna of Irrisen who after 100 years has managed to start opening winter portals across Golarion to threaten all of the world unless a plucky band of heroes manage to find Baba Yaga, free her, and undo Elvanna's dire plans? ;)
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Since we're talking about recurring trends in APs, this is the one I've noticed which is starting to be a bit repetitive: slumbering/disabled/imprisoned evil overlords waiting to return to the world/become unstoppably powerful, with PCs stopping them in the final moment.
** spoiler omitted **
Mummy's Mask seems like it will be similar.
I disagree with at least some of your examples.
From the adventures that I have GMed/played:Young queen found a way to use an ancient power and and try to become immortal.
The only appearance of the "slumbering/disabled/imprisoned evil overlord" is after you have defeated her, and honestly sound a bit tackled on at the end of the adventure.
Nyrissa has been active for centuries, in the AP the adventurers are simply involved in her latest plot.
from what I have read about them at least a couple of the other adventures you cited have the adventurers battling the latest plot or the plot set in their territory of ancient foes that have been active for thousand of years and across multiple universes.
Demogorgon isn't "slumbering" at all.
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Since we're talking about recurring trends in APs, this is the one I've noticed which is starting to be a bit repetitive: slumbering/disabled/imprisoned evil overlords waiting to return to the world/become unstoppably powerful, with PCs stopping them in the final moment.
** spoiler omitted **
Mummy's Mask seems like it will be similar.
If I'm not mistaken, this is on purpose, and Golarion was designed with that idea in mind.
In the timeline of Golarion, the "present", which is the time when all the APs are assumed to happen, is known as "that time when all the super powered evil stuff we thought was buried a long time ago is starting to come back, all at once, from all directions". If I figured things correctly, the Paizo folk (and Jacobs chief among them) have some sort of meta plot, probably involving Arodan somehow, that explains WHY so many slumbering ancient evils began to stir at the same time...
Maybe this is all just derived from my imagination though... :P
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An AP dealing with an emergent threat, one involving mere mortal contemporary folk gaining power right in the present day of the AP, and not the return of an ancient buried evil, could be something of a twist. Instead of digging up a lost source of power or awakening a slumbering evil, a new and exciting (and perhaps the slightest bit ill-advised...) line of research at the Arcanamirium (or wherever) could lead to something entirely new and dangerous, that doesn't tie into some ancient prophecy or sleeping prehistoric threat.
From my point of view Curse of the Crimson Throne do exactly that.
It use theThe ancient evil has one advantage: you don't have to justify why the enemy is more powerful than the single PC.
We return to the "BEEG destroy the city" problem. If the rising BEEG in the nearby city has in mind to expand his border (that remember you someone in Kingmaker?) what would you do? Fight back immediately.
Most players wouldn't like to have the enemy commander evading them for 5 AP while they and him increase in power to have a final showdown in the last module.
From what I have read there was people complaining about that when speaking of CoTC. Who was the main villain was evident from the second instalment of the AP so people wanted to battle her at that point of the adventure.
Players don't think of doing that when the main enemy is Demogorgon or Pazuzu. They are happy to defeat their minions.
In the timeline of Golarion, the "present", which is the time when all the APs are assumed to happen, is known as "that time when all the super powered evil stuff we thought was buried a long time ago is starting to come back, all at once, from all directions". If I figured things correctly, the Paizo folk (and Jacobs chief among them) have some sort of meta plot, probably involving Arodan somehow, that explains WHY so many slumbering ancient evils began to stir at the same time...
Maybe this is all just derived from my imagination though... :P
My players have long learned to try and avoid saying something like this around me as I'll smile, nod, say "I'm pleased you saw through my plot twist!" and then when their backs are turned, write down the idea, and incorporate it.
Sometimes the most innocuous things have been little errors on my part that the players caught and then start gnawing at, trying to figure out WHY that was so. Which ironically resulted in one player being an aasimar before they were created as PC races in AD&D (if they ever were) just because I described the character's parents standing side-by-side in the line to reach judgment - a line that was single file.
Or to put it another way, Mr. Snow, while they may not have intended originally for all this to be because of Arodan's death and a meta-plot, NOW they very well may! ;)
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Or to put it another way, Mr. Snow, while they may not have intended originally for all this to be because of Arodan's death and a meta-plot, NOW they very well may! ;)
Yay!
seriously though, I think Jacobs is exactly the kind of person who will hold his 10 (real life) years meta plot secret while slowly integrating evidence to it into his campaign world.
By the way, he did mention he had plans for the Sihedron to be integral to the plot of another AP down the line, so there IS some kind of meta plot, though maybe it's not quite as world engulfing as I make it out to be.
If you've never read the Hobbit is it spoiled by having SMAUG on the cover?
No, but in a Pathfinder game, it would give the PCs metagame knowledge. "OK, we've dragon-bane arrows, potions of Resist Energy: Fire, and I'm going to specialize in Cone of Cold..."
Not quite. Thorin and crew KNOWS they're going up against a Dragon. Bilbo finds out fairly quickly into the story. And they weren't going to kill it. They were going to steal treasure. Which really was a stupid idea and Smaug points that out. ^^;;
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If you've never read the Hobbit is it spoiled by having SMAUG on the cover?No, but in a Pathfinder game, it would give the PCs metagame knowledge. "OK, we've dragon-bane arrows, potions of Resist Energy: Fire, and I'm going to specialize in Cone of Cold..."
If your players have a problem with meta gaming (grabbing such items and spells before learning in game there's a dragon to be faced), then there are bigger issues at play.
But lets say it is true. Lets say you run The Dragon's Demand, it has a dragon on the cover, and the title. It's dragons all the way down. Your players make a party that's all about dragonslaying. Sweet. Players have an in built motivation to join the adventure and then you as a GM have the opportunity to tailor the adventure to the players strengths. They might have an easier time of the boss battle but that won't be much help against the many other encounters throughout the module.
2) Everything you care about will be destroyed. I've heard gamers in all seriousness advise new players not to write family or friends into their backstory, because it just gives the GM ammunition to use against them in some misery porn 'I will destroy everything your character cares about' sort of arms race. It that really the only weapon in a GM's arsenal, to target every NPC or community that your character is even remotely attached to for ruination? If the party decided to go shopping for expensive magic items in the regional capitol in the middle of an invasion on their home town because they wanted better magic items than they could buy in said hometown, then, yeah, logically, their hometown is likely to have taken some hits when they saunter back into town. But for the town to be ravaged while they were riding on the plot choo-choo, welded to the rails and unable to stay and defend the town, that's just cheap.
I think you're looking at it the wrong way. It's not about the players' failure to fight the End-game Boss at Mid-game levels. It's about: "Crap, we're stuck here and that *CENSORED* could be out doing who-knows-what to our town! We gotta get outta here, fast!"
It may seem like simple railroading, but in cases like this, the lack of agency is the entire point. Sometimes you can't stop this or that from happening, you can't save everyone. And sometimes, the question is not "can we do this?", but rather "What are we gonna do about it?"
This is Aeris' Death (Or Nei/Alys, if you're a Sega fan). This is having to choose between saving Kaidan or Ashley. This is watching Phil Coulson bleed out on the Helicarrier (I know he really isn't dead, but you get the point!). It's about something bad happening, you being helpless to stop it, and now it's time to get some revenge or make it right.