Perfect Preparation

[Flintas]

I just picked up the Mythic Adventures pdf and was looking through it when I came across an ability that made me question how it works.

The archmage path ability "Perfect Preparation" states that you no longer need to prepare spells from a spellbook or familiar and that you can keep or discard your spellbook or familiar. My question would be, how does this affect spells known? Do you still have the same limit on spells known or can you prepare any spell from your list like a cleric does?

[Umbral Reaver]

The ability doesn't say.

If I were to rule on the ability myself, I would say that the character is treated as being a spellbook (with unlimited pages), for the purposes of preparing and learning spells.

[Ravingdork]

Pretty sure you are supposed to track your spells known and your spells in your spellbook separately anyways; since losing your spellbook doesn't technically effect your spells known (just those you can readily cast).

Most people don't bother though, since 99% of the time, it means the same thing. As far as I know, until something happens to your spellbook, differentiating between the two is completely moot.

[Flintas]

I always understood that prepared casters don't have a "spells known" per say, more of a, you figured it out and have scribed it to your book, which you reference to memorize it for the day. In other words, your book is your spells known. Without your book, you can't prepare spells. If you loose your book, you loose the spells.

[Darkon Slayer]

spells known are for spontaneous casters only, this ability is for Prepared arcane caster (Wizard, Magus, Witch)

[Ninjaxenomorph]

So do they get a mental list of spells... Or do they become like Clerics, able to prepare any spell they wish?

[Darkon Slayer]

I am assuming they prepare spells like clerics.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

If that's true, then they might as well pick up Divine Source, because they're friggin GODS if they can do that.

[Ughbash]

No, they still have to learn a spell the same way they did previously.

Now it is relatively cheap to learn a spell from a scroll or a friends spell book and they would not need to write it into a spell book, but they can not just suddenly know ALL spells.

This is just Sepll Mastery to the Nth degree.

[Darkon Slayer]

Ninjaxenomorph wrote:

If that's true, then they might as well pick up Divine Source, because they're friggin GODS if they can do that.

Divine Source allows you to grant spells to followers, it is no the same as being able to memorize spells with out a book. Know what your comparing please.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I was using a hyperbole, using the Divine Source ability because it grants them an ability normally attributed to gods. I was implying that an Archmage might as well be a god if the Perfect Preparation ability was interpreted to give them unlimited access to their spell list, as opposed to having a mental spellbook.

[tsumechk]

I interpreted it as "prepares as a cleric" as well. Given that Wild Arcana allows a wizard to cast (at Tier 1) any spell from their spell list at +2 caster level without using a spell slot up to five times a day I personally don't see Perfect Preparation being prepare as a cleric as overpowered. If you can't break your GM's encounters in five spells, you're not playing your wizard very well (joking).

And even then it wouldn't be that hard to deal with a wizard who had access to their entire spell list. A lot of it is chaff anyway, and any wizard who's building/playing their character as a "I'm going to do everything in my power to be a god" type wizard will probably have all of the game breaking spells in their spellbook anyway. And those that don't want to play their wizard like that will probably just ignore most of the "I win" spells and go with ones that are fun. I know the one I'm playing (who has this ability) still uses most of his spell slots on flashy evocation spells rather than encounter ending spells.

Add to that the fact that Mythic Adventures is basically Pathfinder's own version of Epic Levels. Yes, a wizard having access to their entire spell list is powerful. But (assuming that's how it works) that's kinda the point of Mythic Adventures: turning characters up to eleven.

Lastly the "knows their entire spell list" isn't how I interpreted it. I kinda see it as a wizard going to prepare his spells and thinking "I want to use a spell that turns enemies into ashes (Disintegrate). How would I go about doing that...AH! Right just do this, and that, and there we go! One spell of ray-based 'tear enemies down to their base components' death." It's less of "Knowing all their spells" and more of "I have such a deep understanding of magic that I can figure out how to cast basically any arcane spell without needing to consult an instruction manual".

Of course if someone from Paizo comes in and says "It's a mental spellbook" then this is all me spouting useless information and I'll concede the point with no objections, but that's just my two GP on the subject.

[xebeche]

Quote:

Perfect Preparation (Ex): You have discovered the secret to preparing spells without having to refer to outside sources. You no longer need to prepare spells from a spellbook (if you’re a magus or wizard) or a familiar (if you’re a witch). You still must spend the normal amount of time preparing spells. You may keep or discard your spellbook or familiar. —Mythic Adventures 17

My initial read was literal in that the wizard (or witch or magus) does not need to refer to outside sources. This is also inline with the Arcane Surge and Wild Arcana Archmage Arcana abilities. As there is no mention for how one writes a spell into them self, or that it is necessary, it is reasonable to assume that the wizard would have access to all spells on the wizard spell list as a cleric would to their spell list. Divine casters have been doing this all along.

I can understand why someone would argue against this interpretation given that it isn't clear. I simply have yet to read or think of a reason why preparing arcane spells like a cleric would be out of balance with many other mythic abilities.

[AzureKnight]

I wanted to post to give this one a bump, our group is trying to answer this very question right now and opinions are divided.

One group says that the wizard is the spellbook, they still have to pay to learn and "scribe" the spell into their brain.

The other group says that this allows a wizard to function like a cleric.

I'd love some more opinions on which is right or even opinions on which is better. Official word for RAI would be really great!

[DonDuckie]

@AzureKnight and thread in general

I understand it as he is his own spellbook, he still needs to learn spells, but not pay for writing them into a spellbook.

He is still a wizard(witch, magus) and nobody gives him his spells - he learns them(witch is debatable, but I won't).

The wording: "You may keep or discard your spellbook or familiar."
to me, it means that you can have the spell-storing aspects of a spellbook(or familiar) without an actual book(or critter). (This goes somewhat against my "no payment"-policy from above, but I stand by it).

The path ability says nothing about granting knowledge of spells (cleric-like preparation), so I don't see a reason to assume this.

He can keep spellbooks as collectables, or as a "diversion" in case of capture - sorcerer style.

I believe the better solution is to NOT grant him automatic knowledge of all sorc/wiz-spells let him buy the scrolls.

[/scattered thoughts]

My reasoning for not paying to learn spells is that this payment is not a result of a class ability, but rather a result of the spellbook general rules - which the archmage is no longer subject to.

The wizard class ability says he must learn each new spell, and that there is no limit on spells known. This is not changed by perfect preparation IMO.

[Dukai]

@DonDuckie I don't see anything in the wizard class ability that says they must learn each new spell. In the spell section, I see "A wizard may know any number of spells." In the spellbook section, I see "[A Wizard] cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his spellbook" which Perfect Preparation specifically negates. Later in the spellbook section, I see "At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast for his spellbook" which is very different from being required to learn new spells.

After rereading these sections, I can see a strong argument for wizards to prepare spells like clerics. However, as a GM I would most likely require wizard players that select this path abiilty to have a list of spells they have in their "spellbook". I would also rule that upon exposure to the mechanics of a spell (either by reading another wizard's spellbook or finding a scroll...maybe even correctly identifying a spell as it's cast), a wizard need only make a successful spellcraft check to learn the spell without any need to scribe it (as spellbooks are no longer needed).

[Nissan pathfinder]

It's clearly stated that the perfect preparation path ability negate the need to reference to a spellbook when preparing spell, however there is absolutely nothing about learning spell you don't already know. As far as I'm concerned, this ability was intended to be an unlimited extension of the spell mastery feat, removing the need to have a spellbook, but not the need to learn spells.

[Gendif]

Having recently reached mythic archmage myself I find the question in need of answering and I'm inclined to go with the "prepare as cleric" school of thought.
Why? Because wizards don't have 'spells known' merely the physical limitation of their spellbook. If you remove any reference to a spellbook from the Wizards class then that's what you get.
As has been pointed out above its not exactly game breaking anyway.

[dragonhunterq]

FWIW put me in the camp that you are now (effectively) your own spell book. You still need to learn a spell before you can prepare it, but your memory is so good you don't need to refer to a spellbook to do so.

Nothing in the ability removes the need to learn a spell before you can prepare it. Nor is there any mention in the ability of suddenly learning potentially thousands of spells.