What is Secret Plan X and what does it mean for Pathfinder fans?


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LMPjr007 wrote:
OK I think I have decided hat we are going to do 2 pages per monster (a la Privateer Press' Monsternomicon). Is there any reason you think this would be a bad idea?

Because it would cut the number of monsters in half...

This would make me much less interested.

Most monsters don't need two pages. Look at the [Kobold] Midgard Bestiary, for example.


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ericthecleric wrote:
LMPjr007 wrote:
OK I think I have decided hat we are going to do 2 pages per monster (a la Privateer Press' Monsternomicon). Is there any reason you think this would be a bad idea?

Because it would cut the number of monsters in half...

This would make me much less interested.

Most monsters don't need two pages. Look at the [Kobold] Midgard Bestiary, for example.

Especially for high level monsters, who require larger stat-blocks to make them more interesting, I think two pages per monster is pretty much minimum. If you try to do a high level monster in one page, you either need to cut out all the fluff, or make all its abilities just low-level-like powers with higher numbers, or, most likely, both. If you make a book of CR 2-3 monsters, one per page is fine. But for epic monsters? Two pages per monster is barely enough to make a decent monster, let alone a great one.


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My main concept is that with two pages the first page will be the standard set up you are used to AKA crunch. While the second page will have more role playing information and various uses for this monster I'm various situations AKA fluff.

I am working on a sample image of what the two page set-up will look like that I will place her to let everyone see it and get your feedback. Does that sound reasonable to everyone?


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Sounds awesome to me! :D

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

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Well, I've always been of the opinion that a monster should fill exactly as many pages as needed to explain the concept, no more, no less.

If it's a CR 20+ creature with lots of abilities and a huge campaign footprint, give it a two- to four-page spread.

If it's a lower-level creature with a complex ecology or society, give it a two-page spread.

If it's a beastie whose mechanics are interesting but whose role is self-explanatory, don't waste space tacking on fluff just to meet a minimum page count. Add a second short monster, instead.

The classic example of a monster that doesn't need two pages is the displacer beast. It's one of the most iconic monsters in D&D, having inspired multiple spells and magic items. But at the end of the day, it's just a cat monster with displacement. A detailed, full-page write-up of the displacer beast's habitat and life cycle would add next to nothing to my enjoyment of the creature. It's a cat monster. With displacement. I can read about the ecology of cats online and I have the mechanics for displacement. Monster finished. Next monster.


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Each to their own. Personally I find fluff details about the monsters at least as interesting as the game stats, so more space for such is a selling point for me.


And this is the issue that game designers and gaming publishers constantly have. Two sides of the same coin, with both positions being valid.

I personally have the feeling of since monsters are basically stat blocks it is the fluff that makes them unique. SKR proved that with his File Off the Serial Numbers pdf he created. Most people know What a displacer beast, but if it was a squid shaped monster made out of light and shadows, you might have a different response. If you don't know what the stat block says you can only count on the fluff to give an idea of what you are dealing with.

Sovereign Court Contributor

You could go the route taken in the S&W version of Tome of Horrors and provide a lair/adventure seeds on the second page, if there's sufficient room.

You could also provide the "lore" info that 3.5 used to provide, based on different Knowledge checks.

A sufficiently interesting monster can spawn a whole fascinating adventure, particularly if it's unfamiliar... i.e., who's eating the people in the woods, moved into the ruins, etc.

Monsters that camouflage themselves as different types, to confuse adventurers (hey! why didn't my favored enemy bonus apply?) or have unexpected strengths and weaknesses might need the fluff to explain their fit in the whole imaginary ecosystem.

Any new, non-mythical/legendary monster needs distinctive, good, art to help describe it. That may take up a half-page at least.


Looks like we just signed another name to this upcoming Kickstarter Monster book; Dale McCoy, Jr of Jon Brazer Enterprises has just added his name as writer to this already very impressive list of writers. Who will be next?

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

LMPjr007 wrote:
Dale McCoy, Jr of Jon Brazer Enterprises has just added his name as writer to this already very impressive list of writers.

Wahoo!

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

LMPjr007 wrote:
I personally have the feeling of since monsters are basically stat blocks it is the fluff that makes them unique. SKR proved that with his File Off the Serial Numbers pdf he created. Most people know What a displacer beast, but if it was a squid shaped monster made out of light and shadows, you might have a different response. If you don't know what the stat block says you can only count on the fluff to give an idea of what you are dealing with.

The displacer beast can be easily described with only three paragraphs of fluff. If you transform it into a squid-shaped monster made of light and shadows, it can still be easily described with only three paragraphs of fluff. Adding an additional page of fluff to a solitary magical beast is overkill. (A full-page illustration of a battle against that solitary magical beast or a full-page map of its lair would each be more interesting than a page of filler text. But those are artwork and cartography, not fluff.)

Contributor

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Yay, Dale McCoy!


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BIG ANNOUNCEMENT!!!!!!!

After first seeing and loving this writer's work over twenty years ago, I always wanted to and dreamed about working with them and now my dream has come true. Mike Shel of The Mud Sorcerer's Tomb and Tomb of the Iron Medusa fame has signed on to work on this kickstarter! NOW it just got real! I am SO excited!!!!!


OK for all those who are "debating" and still thinking it over, here is some sample layout I put together to examine both sides of the argument of 1-page or 2-page monster write ups. These pages are rough drafts and have placement text in certain places just to test the layout.

Page 1 is the Single page monster write-up that is standard for Paizo

Pages 2 & 3 are the double page set up with of course more information on the monster.

So tell us what you think?

Sovereign Court Contributor

I like the creator notes. Knowing their inspirations and intentions would be kinda appropriate for this project.


Go with the two-page layout.

Also, see if you can talk Mike Shel into writing a Mud Bloodline for sorcerers. :)


LMPjr007 wrote:

OK for all those who are "debating" and still thinking it over, here is some sample layout I put together to examine both sides of the argument of 1-page or 2-page monster write ups. These pages are rough drafts and have placement text in certain places just to test the layout.

Page 1 is the Single page monster write-up that is standard for Paizo

Pages 2 & 3 are the double page set up with of course more information on the monster.

So tell us what you think?

My opinion is that it is a good layout, if a bit 'Pathfinder' generic --but that might be the look you're going for. The colors are very pleasing to the eye; suitably contrasting with the artwork.

I'd consider the changing the capsules. My opinion is that the capsules are a bit 'busy', especially the 'Creator Notes' heading. Use an eyedropper tool in your favorite publishing program and pick a color from the page background; something a few shades darker than the center area of the page. Make your capsule out of that color and don't use a gradient, maybe drop a soft-ish shadow instead. Boom!

Also, I attempted tuned out most of the off-topic stuff, so I may have missed...
Did an alternate title for the book get decided?

In any case, what about Ultimate Bestiary?


Dot.


And I probably should have added in my last post I like the two page layout.

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I'm a fan of the one-page layout, but there are definitely some monsters that benefit greatly from two-page write-ups. For example, you ever notice that creatures like constructs or familiar-compatible critters never get any real background or flavor text in Paizo's Bestiaries, because the "Construction" or "Improved Familiar" text eats up so much space? Same goes for monsters with inordinately long statblocks or a lot of "effective sorcerer levels."

Would implementing one- or two-page formats on a case-by-case basis be feasible - allowing the author to allocate either one or two "pages" of his or her word count to any given creature entry? You'd no doubt want to avoid having to actually turn a page to see the rest of any given monster's statblock, but I might have some thoughts on a way around that particular presentation issue.


I was wondering something similar Abandoned Arts. Although the idea behind this books seems to be creations from the writers' heads...so I'm sure each monster could have 2 pages :)

Sovereign Court

so, WHEN ?


Stereofm wrote:
so, WHEN ?
LMPjr007 wrote:
We are hoping for January 2014, so you can have money saved up to support this. Since we keep adding names to this everyday to work on this project, I have a feeling this is going to be a BIG BOOK!

THEN!


Looks like we just signed another name to this upcoming Kickstarter Monster book; Wendall Roy of LPJ Design's NeoExodus Chronicles: Cutting Edge Machinesmith and Rite Publishing's #30 Alchemical Gadgets has just added his name as writer to this already very impressive list of writers. Who will be next?


By the way, if you were interested:

Here is the list of 3PP companies working on this Monster kickstarter for Pathfinder Roleplaying Game.

1. Abandoned Arts
2. Black Star Studios
3. Fat Goblin Games
4. Legendary Games
5. Zombie Sky Press
6. Dreamscarred Press
7. Little Red Goblin Games (Scott Gladstien)
8. Raging Swan
9. Rite Publishing
10. Storm Bunny Press
11. TPK Games

Here is the list of 3PP writers working on this Monster kickstarter
1. Amanda Hamon
2. Christina Stiles
3. Clinton Boomer
4. Dale McCoy
5. Epic Meppo
6. John Wick
7. Justin Sluder
8. Larry Wilhem
9. Mike Shel
10. Owen KC Stephens
11. Sean K Reynolds
12. Stephen Radney-MacFarland
13. Wendall Roy

And this list is going to get MUCH bigger!


I like both layouts. Creator notes are useful...since sometimes the inspiration for a creature flies over my head.

I think Eric Meepo already said this, but having a mix of one page versus 2-3 pages would be good. Some creatures, especially lower CR guys, animals, vermin, etc might not need as much text.

Also, I actually prefer either 2 page spreads or 4 page spreads. If I am flipping through a book, it reduces the chance I am going to think the illustration/flavor of X actually goes with creature Y, instead of creature X


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We forgot Tricky Owlbear Publishing, Inc.! Sorry about that!


So... basically everyone but PurpleDuckGames? (j/k)


Lyingbastard wrote:
So... basically everyone but PurpleDuckGames? (j/k)

And Monte Cook and Wolfgang Baur. But hey, you never know...

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It's like Celebrity Jeopardy, only even nerdier!

Thanks for the inclusion; I've got so many monster designs; staying under word count going to be a real test of willpower. ; )

Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts


Abandoned Arts wrote:

It's like Celebrity Jeopardy, only even nerdier!

Thanks for the inclusion; I've got so many monster designs; staying under word count going to be a real test of willpower. ; )

Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts

The good thing about going over word count on a project like this is that you'll likely end up with leftover monsters for use in other projects.


LMPjr007 wrote:
Lyingbastard wrote:
So... basically everyone but PurpleDuckGames? (j/k)
And Monte Cook and Wolfgang Baur. But hey, you never know...

Wait...it getting Monte on board with this actually a possibility?!?!?!?!?


Lyingbastard wrote:
So... basically everyone but PurpleDuckGames? (j/k)

Ask and you shall receive, Mark Gedak has signed up to write for this upcoming Kickstarter. Who Will Be Next?

Dark Archive

THE Adam Daigle should be a part of this.

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

Justin Sluder wrote:
THE Adam Daigle should be a part of this.

As opposed to an Adam Daigle?


Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
Justin Sluder wrote:
THE Adam Daigle should be a part of this.
As opposed to an Adam Daigle?

Yeah...after doing an Adam Daigle Google search, I can tell you that you don't want just an Adam Daigle. I'd post links but...no.


Looks like we just signed another name to this upcoming Kickstarter Monster book for Pathfinder RPG by Paizo; Gary McBride of Fire Mountain Games’ Way of the Wicked Adventure Path has just added his name as writer to this already very impressive list of writers. Who will be next?


Wooo!
Monte Cook?
Lich Gary Gygax?
Wraith Dave Arneson?


Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
THE Adam Daigle should be a part of this.

Funny you should say that....

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

So many monsters.

This book is going to be huge!


Epic Meepo wrote:

So many monsters.

This book is going to be huge!

When building the budget for this kickstarter, I went with the concept that the book would be 400 pages. I think this book will be huge since we are also including feats, spells, templates, traps, poisons, disease and any and all other monster related material. I built the idea for this KS to let everyone who works on this to be as creative as they would like. I mean can you imagine what John Wick and Clinton Boomer are going to make as monsters? How crazy is this going to be?


So I am working on the design for our upcoming Pathfinder monster kickstarter and of course I have been working on the graphic design side of things, so I wanted to show you the chapter opener pages that I created and wanted to get everyones opinion on which color they thought would look better: Blue or Red? Please let me know!


Blue is easier on the eyes in my opinion.


I prefer red. The blue strikes me as cool/cold/pleasant and less "warning - monsters". Red is much more enticing - I dislike the brightness of the blue.


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Both. Red for the monsters and blue for the other info.

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The blue, most definitely. The red doesn't contrast with with the parchment enough. The blue is more readily readable and adds a little something to the color scheme.


OK I "think" I have finally decided on the reward tiers for this still unnamed upcoming Monster Kickstarter. Tell us what you think of these rewards:

$1: Thank You

$20: PDF

$40: PDF & B&W POD book

$45 (Limit 35): PDF, B&W POD book & Submit 2 Traps

$50 (Limit 30): PDF, B&W POD book, Submit 2 Traps & Submit 2 Poison / Diseases

$55 (Limit 30): PDF, B&W POD book, Submit 2 Traps, Submit 2 Poison / Diseases & Submit 2 Feats

$60 (Limit 25): PDF, B&W POD book, Submit 2 Traps, Submit 2 Poison / Diseases, Submit 2 Feats & Submit 2 Spells

$65 (Limit 25): PDF, B&W POD book, Submit 2 Traps, Submit 2 Poison / Diseases, Submit 2 Feats, Submit 2 Spells & Submit 2 Templates

$70 (Limit 25): PDF, B&W POD book, Submit 2 Traps, Submit 2 Poison / Diseases, Submit 2 Feats, Submit 2 Spells, Submit 2 Templates & Submit 2 Monsters

$75 (Limit 20): PDF, B&W POD book, Submit 2 Traps, Submit 2 Poison / Diseases, Submit 2 Feats, Submit 2 Spells, Submit 2 Templates, Submit 2 Monsters & Submit 2 Monsters

$100: PDF, B&W POD book, Color PDF Book, Submit 2 Traps, Submit 2 Poison / Diseases, Submit 2 Feats, Submit 2 Spells, Submit 2 Templates, Submit 2 Monsters & Submit 2 Monsters

Dark Archive

i like it, but i feel there should be something for $5 and $10, maybe a sample pdf at one of those levels


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Hmm...color POD is no option or too expensive, I gather? Just saying since I really love LPJr Design-level quality layout and artwork in color...

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Is "Color PDF book" supposed to be "Color POD book" on the above list?

I would have assumed the PDF was already in color.

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