Cave Druids and wild shape query

[prototype00]

So at lvl 10 Cave Druids can transform into medium and small oozes as per beast shape III and at lvl 12 large and tiny oozes as per Beast Shape IV. Beast Shape IV also gives elemental resistances, so the question is if a 12th lvl Cave Druid Wildshapes into a medium ooze, do they get the elemental resistances too?

Prototype00

[Furious Kender]

prototype00 wrote:

So at lvl 10 Cave Druids can transform into medium and small oozes as per beast shape III and at lvl 12 large and tiny oozes as per Beast Shape IV. Beast Shape IV also gives elemental resistances, so the question is if a 12th lvl Cave Druid Wildshapes into a medium ooze, do they get the elemental resistances too?

Prototype00

Nope. Also they don't get blindsight so they're blind too. Cave druids are traps unless your DM works with you to make ooze shape playable.

[prototype00]

Cave Druids lose the ooze "blind" trait when Wildshapes by the rules. So Raw they can see.

Prototype00

So what you are saying with regards to the resistances is that the beast shape spell level does not function like the regular Wildshapes?

[ryric]

Beast shape IV function as beast shape III but it also allows you to assume Large and Tiny forms...so you can use the higher level effect to assume the medium forms and get the higher level version's special abilities.

Nothing in any of beast shape or cave druid says anything about becoming blind. Polymorph spells do exactly what they say and no more.

[prototype00]

So one for and one against, I should have expected that. :p

Prototype00

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

Reading over the RAW 30 or 33 times, I agree with you Prototype.

The Wildshape for Cave Druid states as if using Beast Shape IV. Wildshape for the regular druid and cave druid, with it's wording, says nothing about gaining or not gaining. Which leads me to rely purely on Beast Shape IV as that is the only thing with any sort of ruling in regards to Wildshaping and the whole "as if using" segment. Looking at Beast Shape IV, it states you gain resistances or immunities of the creature if it had any to begin with. So, I have to say Yes. You also gain it's weaknesses if those are available.

Blindness is a no also, btw. Even if you were blind, you gain blindsense.

It is all very clear to me.

[prototype00]

Well, you didn't have to read the RAW again, and certainly not 30+ times :P.

The blindness thing, I'm more or less satisfied by the RAW. The Beast Shape equivalencies though, I'm slightly less sure about, as it doesn't specifically link the medium ooze shapes with Beast Shape IV. Still, if people think that 12th level Cave Druids are using Beast Shape IV to wildshape, whatever ooze they wildshape into, I'm not one to argue.

prototype00

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

I forgot to specify; I was speaking of your level 12 Cave Druid Wildshape ability for the entirety of that paragraph I wrote.

I read things over and over to understand and find those niches. I suppose it was slightly excessive :P

[Furious Kender]

Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:

Reading over the RAW 30 or 33 times, I agree with you Prototype.

The Wildshape for Cave Druid states as if using Beast Shape IV. Wildshape for the regular druid and cave druid, with it's wording, says nothing about gaining or not gaining. Which leads me to rely purely on Beast Shape IV as that is the only thing with any sort of ruling in regards to Wildshaping and the whole "as if using" segment. Looking at Beast Shape IV, it states you gain resistances or immunities of the creature if it had any to begin with. So, I have to say Yes. You also gain it's weaknesses if those are available.

Blindness is a no also, btw. Even if you were blind, you gain blindsense.

It is all very clear to me.

Just wanted to point out that you get the form. Just the form. You lose any abilities that you have in your form. Any abilities that the real creature has you get only if those are listed in the Beast Shape spell. For example, if the ooze had blindsense, you would get it as blindsense is a listed ability. However, oozes don't have blindsense. They have blindsight, which is not among the granted abilities.

Thus, you cannot see. You have no eyes and no blindsight. Same for the acid attacks, engulf, split and all the rest of the ooze abilities. Literally, if it worked like elemental body, you'd get them. Elementals all can see. But this ability works like beast shape, so no blindsight and no acid, etc by RAW.

To make this workable, you simply need to talk to your DM because the RAW is a mess.

[mplindustries]

Furious Kender wrote:

Just wanted to point out that you get the form. Just the form. You lose any abilities that you have in your form. Any abilities that the real creature has you get only if those are listed in the Beast Shape spell.

I am fairly positive that the RAW allows you to see. Being blind is a function of the ooze type. You do not gain the ooze's type. Therefore, you do not become blind. You retain your normal senses, as "sight" is not an extraordinary ability and you only lose extraordinary and supernatural abilities tied to your normal form.

Interestingly, from the polymorph subschool:

"When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon."

Note that Ooze is not on that list. That means, by RAW, you become an ooze wearing armor, carrying all your gear, that can cast spells freely, and even speak normally. Bizarre.

Yes, I know it's just an obvious oversight, since there was no way to become an ooze when that line was written, but it is certainly interesting.

[Lucent Eye]

So:

“The cave druid gains this ability at 6th level, except that her effective druid level for this ability is equal to her druid level – 2. She cannot use wild shape to adopt a plant form. At 10th level, the cave druid can assume the form of a Small or Medium ooze as if using beast shape III, AND at 12th level that of a Tiny or Large ooze as if using beast shape IV (treating the ooze as if it were a magical beast without a natural armor bonus). When in ooze form, the cave druid has no discernible anatomy and is immune to poison, sneak attacks, and critical hits.”

Since the ability uses the inclusionary connector AND, and does not exclude the previous fragment by using exclusionary language such as NOR, BUT, HOWEVER, RATHER, INSTEAD, CAN ONLY or more of a mouthful like CONVERSELY, and the two fragments are not separated by a period or semi-colon, instead using just a comma, there are at least two primary syntactical arguments that support the following argument:

A level 10 Cave Druid has the ability to turn into a Small or Medium ooze as if using Beast Shape 3, AND a level 12 Cave Druid can turn into a Tiny, Small, Medium, or Large Ooze using Beast Shape 3 (although that would be a little silly) or Beast Shape 4.

That’s my interpretation of the rules as written. There are many examples across Paizo Publishing that suggest they are aware of exclusionary connectors, when describing the limitations of class abilities, spells, and special and extraordinary abilities. If they wanted to limit Level 12 Cave Druids from turning into a Carnivorous Crystal, or other medium oozes, using Beast Shape 4 with all of the niceties it grants, they easily could have used a more exclusionary connector or even a period within the ability’s text to show that they were indeed meant to be separate and distinct abilities.

The natural progression of more powerful beast shapes contained within the original Druid Wild Shape abilities also suggests they RAI wanted to allow Level 12 Cave Druids the ability to turn into Small and Medium Oozes using Beast Shape 4.

However, they surely were not thinking about a Conqueror Ooze Build when writing this. A GM, and also the player, should be careful with that power unless the players are getting completely trampled. So, as a GM, giving a player a go ahead to do 256 damage in one hit with an improved natural slam/strongjaw/true strike/reckless abandon/furious finish is one thing, ya you could one hit a boss with that, but that should be the go to for the player if he needs to save the day, not ruin the day. So ya grab those resistances with Beast Shape 4, but don’t come to my game and kill my boss in one hit and laugh that you’ve hacked the game. With great power comes great responsibility. ;)

[The Thread]

Six years, yo.

[Scavion]

Would this be considered Necromancy or Archaeology?

[Lucent Eye]

Haha ya this is actually the only thread I could see about it. Imagine that!