Most of my GM’ing experience was back in 2nd ed and 3.0 (dark ages I know).
Back then we pretty much were able to run most of the published stuff exactly as written. Deaths were not at all uncommon, everyone was challenged, and we had a blast.
I haven’t been the GM a whole lot for PF. But I’m finding I have to drastically scale things up just to be even a moderate challenge.
As written:
The random encounters are a complete waste of time. For example: one module has a special monster they introduced specifically to target the PC’s horses. However, the monsters might get a single surprise attack which will probably miss even the horse and certainly won’t kill it. Then a single attack by almost any PC or cohort and the monster is dead.
The early set encounters are no threat at all to an even halfway decent party. You can’t even usually say it is to use up some resources because it doesn’t. Unless the PC’s are so bored with the fight burn some spells/abilities just to get it over faster.
Many of the BBEG fights (which are almost all a single figure with no support) are over so fast they party doesn’t even realize it was the BBEG. One time the BBEG fight lasted almost 8 rounds simply because the it was such a wimp the PC’s refused to believe it was the BBEG so they were still saving their spells and abilities for when the real BBEG appeared. And even with 8 rounds it still didn’t really provide any significant threat to the PC’s.
I talked to one of the GM’s other guys that GM’s pretty often. I didn’t realize it but he re-writes basically every single encounter and at least doubles the number of opponents or really adds to their levels with templates and things. And we still haven’t been what I would call really stretched challenge wise. (That groups tactics fairly suck and we are still surviving.)
Everyone was bored when I ran ‘as written’ so I’m not doing that now. But most of the reason I use pre-packaged adventures is because I don’t have infinite time to re-write everything. If I did, I would just write my own adventures. So this is rather disappointing to me.
Does this match your experience and do you really re-write all the encounters every time?
One quick question - what build parameters are your players working under? ie - point buy, classes available, how are you determining wealth, etc.
We usually use 20 point buy.
They tend to run a bit under WBL with what is found in the advnetures, since they are selling most everything rather than using it.
CRB, APG, UM, UC, ISWG, chapters 1-2 or ARG.
One of the players is actually very good at build optimization, but terrible at tactics.
One is not very good at build optimization because he always wants to be a jack of all trades but picks classes that are not good at it. His tactics and ideas are pretty good.
The others are somewhere between the two.
But I gamed out several encounters with the sample PC's in 2 published modules and it was still stupidly easy.
If you are using older adventures that are not set up for pathfinder then you will have to modify. Pathfinder characters tend to be a bit stronger than old D&D characters. The pathfinder modules are pretty good and can be used as is if you are not concerned with building you own world setting.
If you don't want to have to do a much mods - drop it down to a 15-pt buy (recommended PB for the APs and modules), half hit points for the PCs.
And max the hp of anything you want to survive for more than a round.
But expect sometimes for the players to cakewalk through some parts. And then to get stymied by something that should be easy.
Well first of all, its important to note that the game is designed for 15 point buy in mind so a 20pt buy while not drastically more powerful, does make a difference especially at low levels. Take a look at the 'elite npc array' in the core rulebook. That is more or less that the game expects. How far you deviate from that will give you a good indication of where your party is on the power curve. If you wizard always has a 20 int, your barbarian a 20 str, you are going to succeed alot more then the game expects. Unfortunately 15 point buy really sucks for characters that need multiple abilities scores so I personally go with a 25pt buy in my game but dont allow anything higher then a 17 after racial modifiers.
Next is the number of pcs. Anything more then 4(it says 5, but the real expectation is 4) and your party has an advantage. How many people are there in your party? My group tends to be very large, (there are 6 players in my rise of the runelords game). I essentially just double whats in the encounter (add a copy of each npc unless there is a strong reason not to, then I add something of similar cr that fits). This essentially raises the CR by 2, which is appropriate for having 2 players over the 4 that are expected. So far stock encounters in rise of the runelords anniversary edition have been fine with this in mind. Though I have also customized a few encounters also.
If you are using older adventures that are not set up for pathfinder then you will have to modify. Pathfinder characters tend to be a bit stronger than old D&D characters. The pathfinder modules are pretty good and can be used as is if you are not concerned with building you own world setting.
The 3 I've used so far were written for pathfinder not DnD. Though they were written before some of the books came out.
If you don't want to have to do a much mods - drop it down to a 15-pt buy (recommended PB for the APs and modules), half hit points for the PCs. ...
But expect sometimes for the players to cakewalk through some parts. And then to get stymied by something that should be easy.
I tried 15 point buy, but the complaining was excessive from the people that wanted to play something other than a fighter.
They were occasionally stymied by investigative or RP elements. But EVERY combat was a cakewalk.
... If you wizard always has a 20 int, your barbarian a 20 str, you are going to succeed alot more then the game expects. ...
They do tend to max their primary attack stat.
Unfortunately 15 point buy really sucks for characters that need multiple abilities scores so I personally go with a 25pt buy in my game but dont allow anything higher then a 17 after racial modifiers.
... Next is the number of pcs. Anything more then 4(it says 5, but the real expectation is 4) and your party has an advantage. How many people are there in your party? ...
Technically their are 5 players. But about 2/3 of the time only 4 make it. Occasionally only 3 make it. At 3 they sometimes had to work a bit to make it through, but that was really more because so major role was completely absent. No one to melee, cast a spell, or scout, etc...
I tried 15 point buy, but the complaining was excessive from the people that wanted to play something other than a fighter.
They were occasionally stymied by investigative or RP elements. But EVERY combat was a cakewalk.
Then I recommend you go with my method, 25 point buy, nothing over a 17 after racial modifiers, nothing under a 10 before racial modifiers (no dumping stats for more points). That will keep their over all bonuses closer to what the adventures expect, while not pushing everyone towards single ability score classes.
Oh one more thing. The game assumes something close to the classic party (fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard). What this means is that it expects:
1 character to be good at fighting (fighter)
1 character to be sort of good at fighting and cast divine spells (cleric)
1 character to be sort of good at fighting and have lots of skills (rogue)
1 character who doesnt really fight, but supports, buffs and controls the fight (wizard).
When you say they struggled with investigative or rp elements, that makes me thing you have combat heavy parties. This is another deviation from the expection of the basic CR system. If the whole party is good at fighting, you will do more damage and be more effective in combat then the game expects. Obviously most parties will deviate from the above formula somehow. Especially if there is significant optimization involved, but you have to keep that forumula in mind when using published material, or just stock monsters/npcs in general.
... Then I recommend you go with my method, 25 point buy, nothing over a 17 after racial modifiers, nothing under a 10 before racial modifiers (no dumping stats for more points). That will keep their over all bonuses closer to what the adventures expect, while not pushing everyone towards single ability score classes.
I will look at doing that next time we build PC's. (Right now we will continue with the ones they have.)
That is definitely easier that re-writing every encounter.But that still is having to modify the rules to make it work. Just seems odd to this old player that as written they seem so easy. I guess I was mostly wondering if everyone else had found it to be the same.
... When you say they struggled with investigative or rp elements, that makes me thing you have combat heavy parties. ...
Not too terribly much. Everyone of them tries to have something effective they can do in combat. But they did build them with social/knowledge skills as part of the build.
They started at 5th and have played through 9th so far.
The RP problems were more along the line of not catching or remembering a whole bunch of the foreshadowing and clues provided in the storyline. So they just didn't know what to do next.
Putting them on a slower advancement track is worth exploring if you have very experienced players.
Upping intelligent opponent responses is another thing to easily increase difficulty without changing anything to the written adventure, e.g., don't have foes sitting in their encounter areas to wait for the slaughter to begin while there is a fight going on in front of their door.
My players are unwilling to use the slow advancement track. They are always eager for the new abilites. Which I can understand, it is fun.
I have been trying to have the opposition behave more intelligently when appropriate. But again, part of that is why were the BBEG tactics written so stupid in the first place. Why would a wizard send all his army and golems to attack the players. Just sit back and wait for them to all be killed. And then wait for the players to heal and buff so they can all gang-up on him at once.
I specifically remember some of the old module write-ups would have the wizard send in his retainers to start fighting. Then he would spend the next 4 rounds buffing. At round 5 he would join the fight and start blasting the crap out of the PC's.
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... Then I recommend you go with my method, 25 point buy, nothing over a 17 after racial modifiers, nothing under a 10 before racial modifiers (no dumping stats for more points). That will keep their over all bonuses closer to what the adventures expect, while not pushing everyone towards single ability score classes.I will look at doing that next time we build PC's. (Right now we will continue with the ones they have.)
That is definitely easier that re-writing every encounter.But that still is having to modify the rules to make it work. Just seems odd to this old player that as written they seem so easy. I guess I was mostly wondering if everyone else had found it to be the same.
Its not modifying the rules. The game is pretty clear that 15 points is standard (its called standard fantasy after all). The whole reason your players were complaining was they struggled to have high stats with 15 points. They are supposed to have lower stats then they appear to want. The elit array is a 15 point buy array and it represents what the game expects.
... Then I recommend you go with my method, 25 point buy, nothing over a 17 after racial modifiers, nothing under a 10 before racial modifiers (no dumping stats for more points). That will keep their over all bonuses closer to what the adventures expect, while not pushing everyone towards single ability score classes.I will look at doing that next time we build PC's. (Right now we will continue with the ones they have.)
That is definitely easier that re-writing every encounter.But that still is having to modify the rules to make it work. Just seems odd to this old player that as written they seem so easy. I guess I was mostly wondering if everyone else had found it to be the same.
Its not modifying the rules. The game is pretty clear that 15 points is standard (its called standard fantasy after all). The whole reason your players were complaining was they struggled to have high stats with 15 points. They are supposed to have lower stats then they appear to want. The elit array is a 15 point buy array and it represents what the game expects.
I suppose that's is true. I hadn't really thought about it quite like that.
I would bet that just 5 less on the point buy does not really make all those easy encounters a challenge. But it might make them a bit less of a cakewalk. I'll see what I can do with that next time we build PC's.
It's always better to power up baddies than power down NPC's. I must admit that modern d20 players are a bit spoiled when it comes to stats, and it's always painful to stat a cleric or monk when you want to not be mentally disabled.
I recommend 25 point buy with no stat allowed to be below 10 before racial adjustment and no stat above 18 after racial adjustment for characters.
For baddies I recommend increasing the number of opponents and taking judicious use of flanking and making sure they block the "Boss" character.
Boss encounters never work like paizo thinks they do in AP's since it's often two martials flanking the one megabeast who can't get a full round attack off before it's dead. Caster bosses who have fly tend to do well against parties that are bad at tactics, but bosses should either be far, far above the strength of the party(ie a 16 HH mutated bear with double HP) if they don't have magic, or be heavily supported by allied mooks.
A single boss, no matter what it is, gets one action to the PC's four.
It's REALLY hard to overcome that without curbstomping the players.
Always throw a few guards into any boss fight, results will improve.
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I run published adventures as 'best case'. Assuming that the players don't get spotted, and are able to take each encounter one at a time, they get the adventure as written.
But if you sound the alarm, bets are off. They're all coming for you.