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Mike,
Can we get a small line added to the chronicle sheets?
"Purchased items: __________ gp"
It would likely be neater than various scrawls, may address some of the comments/concerns raised in the various threads, and hopefully ensure that all the GMs and players know that they only need to enter the gp value on that line and not record every purchase in notes section.
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The one additional change I'd like to see is to remove any vestige of GMs having to sign off on purchases. *** and be a rule that most players and GMs don't follow potentially causing problems if a character eventually hits a GM who wants to see all those signatures. Codify the standard practice that it's OK for GMs to hand out pre-signed chronicle sheets that have the boons, gold, PP, and xp earned on them , and remove all player accounting from those chronicle sheets.Emphasis mine.
I compeletely agree with this because this is the standard practice at my FLGS and it is what I experienced at PaizoCon.
I think rknop nails it by bringing up the concern that some GMs will fail to do this and then you're going to have major problems if another GM flags you have not having everything signed off on.
I'm fine with encouraging players to track items. I do that myself. My chronicle sheets and character sheets are accurate to the copper. I track every arrow spent and every wand charge on all my characters. So this is more about making sure the policy and procedure are not an impediment.
That line does not require an initial or signature, it never did to the best of my understanding.
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Well, Mr Brock, it was not my intention to delve into the minutiae, and it is certainly not my intention to impose my book keeping system to anyone else's. I speak from my personal experience after completing the ITS for 3 of my PCs. For each PC I maintain:
1) Character Sheet
2) Expenses spreadsheet
3) Scenario GP reward and dayjob income (tracked in the same sheet as the Expenses)
4) Spellbook
5) Chronicle SheetI'll grant you that writing one sentence onto one ITS sheet may not seem to take more than a minute. However, I take some pride in being organized and I do make it a point to cross check that entry against the Expenses Spreadsheet, the Chronicle Sheet and possibly the Spellbook as well, just to be sure that if/when I am audited, records are consistent and in order. And that's for one item. I took an average of about 60-90 seconds to check all that for one item.
My PCs are at L8x2 and L9 and each has some 60-80 entries in the "above 25gp" range (yes, I love masterwork tools, scrolls and all manner of alchemical power components and consumables). Going through those 3 PCs took me 4 hours plus today, and I have quite a few more to go (granted that these are not as advanced, but there are a few in the level 3 to 5 range).
Based on past experience, I do occasionally spot calculation or recording errors in my records and I will spend some time to rectify these records. This can take anywhere between 15 minutes to about an hour to rectify and to check the records again for consistency.
Perhaps I'll grant you that the average player may not be as prone to OCD as myself, perhaps requiring half the time. That is still easily 2 hours or more per player. Multiplied against all the PFS players, current and future, I'd think that this amounts to a significant chunk of man hours.
I personally did not derive any pleasure from the time spent and I'd be curious to hear if anyone actually found the task enjoyable.
Personally I wondered why PFS would impose this unpleasant task on everyone just...
Well, I guess it is good that several days ago, I have already clarified in an FAQ, that no past purchases need to be transcribed over. Only those purchases starting on Aug 15 and moving forward.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Mike,
Can we get a small line added to the chronicle sheets?
"Purchased items: __________ gp"It would likely be neater than various scrawls, may address some of the comments/concerns raised in the various threads, and hopefully ensure that all the GMs and players know that they only need to enter the gp value on that line and not record every purchase in notes section.
As much as I would like to, we (Paizo) don't have the time to go back and add that to more than 130 Chronicle Sheets.
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Then, between scenarios, put the next items you wish to buy on your ITS sheet, before the session, show the GM you are purchasing the items, and at the end of the session, you or the GM can list those items from your ITS sheet directly onto the Chronicle. Since the GP value of the purchase is already listed on your ITS sheet, and you know what your next Chronicle number will be when you sit down, it should not take very long to transcribe the purchases on the ITS sheet directly to a Chronicle.
This link shows what Mike is expecting for transcribing your purchases to the chronicle
EDIT: cleaning up quotes, grammar, and links
When a local con/gathering rolls around, I always wonder if I should become a Pathfinder Society GM to participate and run some games at the con. I download the Guide, page through it with a confused look on my face, browse the forums trying to find answers and find threads like this.
Every year I decide that it's waaaay too much effort to even attempt it. I'm a seasoned GM who currently runs three simultaneous campaigns and the effort and paperwork required pales in comparison to this. To somebody like me it's a baffling pile of forms that seems like I'm taking a Microsoft Excel correspondence course. Pathfinder is complicated enough, all of this seems like a truckload of extra work.
I'm sorta bummed to see yet more forms and stuff popping up because if things went the other way and stuff was more streamlined? Then I might consider it. But it seems like things are going in the other direction.
I don't mean to be overly critical. Perhaps this is necessary and a vast majority of people enjoy it as PF Society seems quite popular. I can't help but feel however, that there are a lot of people like me who enjoy the idea of it but are put off by the burdensome requirements.
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Question: We will be running on the new guide @ GenCon. Are we supposed to be enforcing the ITS @ GenCon?
My gut says that most people will either not have it or not even know what I am talking about. So my plan is to have a stack of them to hand out to my players and recommend that they start using it. I don't think we will have the time between slots to convert characters over but we can at least get them to start using it for character purchases beginning @ GenCon.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Question: We will be running on the new guide @ GenCon. Are we supposed to be enforcing the ITS @ GenCon?
My gut says that most people will either not have it or not even know what I am talking about. So my plan is to have a stack of them to hand out to my players and recommend that they start using it. I don't think we will have the time between slots to convert characters over but we can at least get them to start using it for character purchases beginning @ GenCon.
Yes and Yes
I will also have a stack of ITS at PFS HQ.
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I'm sorta bummed to see yet more forms and stuff popping up because if things went the other way and stuff was more streamlined? Then I might consider it.
*** I can't help but feel however, that there are a lot of people like me who enjoy the idea of it but are put off by the burdensome requirements.
When I look at this dispassionately, I believe it will streamline the game. I think the 25gp bar for items may cause some consternation, but an objective look at this seems like it's an improvement in the bookkeeping requirements that a lot of us were doing already.
Now, if a player wasn't keeping any records whatsoever, then yeah...
Maybe, I guess? I don't know, I'm speaking from an outsider's perspective, and what I see vs what an experienced person sees are vastly different. I see simply another sheet to fill out.
For instance to a pro, tax forms probably seem easy, and a new form might be a quicker way of collecting and submitting the proper information. But to an outsider it's yet another form or hurdle they have to have in order to get to the fun stuff.
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Honestly the Whole ITS thing is just silly to me. Lets just start enforcing the Chronicle sheet buy and sell and be done with it.... oh wait odds are 70% of people wont use the ITS or use it correctly anyway. I have very little filled out on my chronicle sheets due to a relaxed environment.
Mind you when I bought Major stuff like upgrading to a Magic weapon or the like I listed it. I did a fast and dirty audit just by adding up all the gold from my sheets, adding up the cost of all my items at 50 gp or more, it looked fine I moved on.
Ill use the new ITS, and start taking more care on my chronicle sheets since its now been brought up as what appears to be an issue, but honestly, cheaters will cheat. They WILL find a way around it. 90% of whats "caught" will be accounting errors, or slip ups and not intentional issues.
Cheaters just cheat themselves, and to any reasonable GM its pretty obvious without a hard Audit when a level 4 is walking around with 30K gp worth of stuff. Or has a Dozen wants and 50 level 2 scrolls.
I have never been audited and hope never to be, It kinda feels like being called a cheater in a way. I wont have anything to hide but *shrugs* I enjoy the current relaxed environment and honor system. After all I am there to play, not work.
Just My Very Humble Thoughts.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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I'm sorta bummed to see yet more forms and stuff popping up because if things went the other way and stuff was more streamlined? Then I might consider it.
*** I can't help but feel however, that there are a lot of people like me who enjoy the idea of it but are put off by the burdensome requirements.
When I look at this dispassionately, I believe it will streamline the game. I think the 25gp bar for items may cause some consternation, but an objective look at this seems like it's an improvement in the bookkeeping requirements that a lot of us were doing already.
Now, if a player wasn't keeping any records whatsoever, then yeah...
Maybe, I guess? I don't know, I'm speaking from an outsider's perspective, and what I see vs what an experienced person sees are vastly different. I see simply another sheet to fill out.
For instance to a pro, tax forms probably seem easy, and a new form might be a quicker way of collecting and submitting the proper information. But to an outsider it's yet another form or hurdle they have to have in order to get to the fun stuff.
Steve, with the old system, Chronicle sheets had six or seven very small lines for a character to list everything that was purchased. It simply wasn't enough, especially with people who use a lot of ammunition and alchemical items and potions. We removed those very small boxes to include more cool stuff on the Chronicle sheet, such as boons and custom items and spells.
What we included to replace those really small boxes at the bottom of a Chronicle sheet is a page very similar to what is found in the Player portfolio, and allows for all equipment to be listed on this one sheet instead of multiple different Chronicles.
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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Question: We will be running on the new guide @ GenCon. Are we supposed to be enforcing the ITS @ GenCon?
My gut says that most people will either not have it or not even know what I am talking about. So my plan is to have a stack of them to hand out to my players and recommend that they start using it. I don't think we will have the time between slots to convert characters over but we can at least get them to start using it for character purchases beginning @ GenCon.
Yeah, I'm already thinking about my spiel and what all to include, since probably 70%+ won't have read the new guidelines or seen the messageboards.
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When a local con/gathering rolls around, I always wonder if I should become a Pathfinder Society GM to participate and run some games at the con. I download the Guide, page through it with a confused look on my face, browse the forums trying to find answers and find threads like this.
Every year I decide that it's waaaay too much effort to even attempt it. I'm a seasoned GM who currently runs three simultaneous campaigns and the effort and paperwork required pales in comparison to this. To somebody like me it's a baffling pile of forms that seems like I'm taking a Microsoft Excel correspondence course. Pathfinder is complicated enough, all of this seems like a truckload of extra work.
I'm sorta bummed to see yet more forms and stuff popping up because if things went the other way and stuff was more streamlined? Then I might consider it. But it seems like things are going in the other direction.
I don't mean to be overly critical. Perhaps this is necessary and a vast majority of people enjoy it as PF Society seems quite popular. I can't help but feel however, that there are a lot of people like me who enjoy the idea of it but are put off by the burdensome requirements.
The paperwork's really not as bad as it sounds. Next time there's a con, try going to play a session or two of PFS, just to see what it's like. You'll have your character sheet, your new Inventory Tracking Sheet to keep track of your purchases, and you'll get a chronicle sheet after every adventure. Yes, it's more than in a home game, but it replaces the need for stuff like keeping track of your treasure manually and deciding how to divide it among the group.
Like I said, try playing a session or two next time you get the chance. Like most things, it's a lot easier to learn by doing it than reading about it. And if you mess up some details as a newbie, it's really not that big a deal.
Also, don't judge from the posts here on the forums. It always amazes me how we have threads with hundreds of posts to debate how to handle a situation that comes up once every 10,000 tables.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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That's what I'm still wondering about. Why is the GM involved in equipment-tracking in the first place? What problem is this supposed to be solving, that couldn't be better handled by simply doing away with GM signoffs for inventory entirely?
If the player simply keeps their character sheet up to date, including current gold and equipment, we could dispense with clutter on chronicle sheets AND the nuisance of separate inventory sheets.
So, if I sit at your table, you are the GM and we have never met, and I advise you I have 16 potions, 14 scrolls and 3 wands at 3rd level, you are ok with that? When you ask how I was able to purchase them all, I say, I just did but don't worry about when or how I purchased them. It's all good.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I can't speak for Calybos1, Mike, but the 16 potions and 14 scrolls don't strike me as odd at all (for spellcasters). I'd ask about the 3rd-leel wands.
Presumption: If a player is using the actual sheets in the Character Folio to track these things, that's good enough? She doesn't have to *also* use the ITS.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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I can't speak for Calybos1, Mike, but the 16 potions and 14 scrolls don't strike me as odd at all (for spellcasters). I'd ask about the 3rd-leel wands.
Presumption: If a player is using the actual sheets in the Character Folio to track these things, that's good enough? She doesn't have to *also* use the ITS.
And if they are 16 different potions, just so I can make sure I have the exact right answer for every problem, including in this scenario we are about to play. No need to check and make sure I actually purchased them, correct?
Also, I believe the Character Folio has inventory sheets in it, correct? If so, then those are good to go.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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So, if I sit at your table, you are the GM and we have never met, and I advise you I have 16 potions, 14 scrolls and 3 wands at 3rd level, you are ok with that? When you ask how I was able to purchase them all, I say, I just did but don't worry about when or how I purchased them. It's all good.That depends. If your Falcons beat my Colts, I may have to subject every one of your characters to the full body-cavity search. And I do mean all of them.
That's only going to happen if your Colts can make the Super Bowl.
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I can see your point on that Brock. I hope a simple section is added to explain exactly what is to be on the ITS,Do we need a new one every single game? or do we make adjustments. That sort of thing.
Being that I am starting to GM again soon I of course want to make sure i'm following the rules. Besides It will at the very least let me see items I bought i never end up using, so I don't repeat the mistake on another char.
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So, here's my ammo tracking sheet: (PDF)
Since it appears that custom stuff is kosher, I will be using this for my archer.
EDIT: well, in the Firefox Acrobat renderer it renders poorly, but in Adobe it renders fine. Guess I'll have to tweak it some more...
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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For instance to a pro, tax forms probably seem easy, and a new form might be a quicker way of collecting and submitting the proper information. But to an outsider it's yet another form or hurdle they have to have in order to get to the fun stuff.
To use your tax form analogy (seeing as I've done tax work in an accounting firm in the past), it's like the 1040EZ form. Normally, your income taxes require the bulky and complicated 1040 form. But if you're one of the many people who have a simple, single-income situation where it's basically "I get a paycheck, I get taxed; just like last year and the year before and the year before...", then you can use the much shorter 1040EZ (get it? "EZ"? Taxes can be fun!) instead of the normal 1040 form.
If a person mistakenly thinks they have to fill out BOTH forms, then yeah, it looks like "yet another form", when in reality they have to do LESS work.
Same thing's happening here: people see the inventory track sheet and think "A second piece of paper? Clearly this must mean more work!" When in reality you're just taking existing information and moving it to where it's got some breathing room instead of cramming it into a little box on the chronicle sheet. Same stuff, but roomier and easier to read! All-upside! :D
...then you can use the much shorter 1040EZ (get it? "EZ"? Taxes can be fun!) instead of the normal 1040 form.
I'll stifle the groan at that line as I prepare to go to the IRS office for the second time in less than a month to wait in line for five hours to get a piece of paper that takes two minutes for them to get.
On a more related note, Perhaps you are right. It's just...eh. It's a time investing thing where I just don't feel like I have the time to be doing this sheet and that sheet and perusing what everybody has and trying to figure out of it's all legal or not.
When the trade off is between filling out forms/questioning the truthfulness of the people I am going to play with...or working on the thing that is going to make the next session awesome, that bit of custom terrain or that bit of polish to an encounter or this or that prop that the players will love and hang onto or aging a piece of paper into an old scroll that shows the location of the ancient tomb...
To me it's no contest where to put that extra time and effort and it's not into forms and audits. Maybe I'm just one of those stodgy luddite people who is screaming at the tide rolling in even as they drown and is too stubborn to move. I'll just do what I usually do and breeze into the Con and just see if there is an overload at the tables and volunteer to run something non-PFS if nobody minds. Usually have my mobile gm kit in my backpack at all times anyways. Maybe I'll check out a PFS game or two and see what I think like some people have suggested if it isn't too full.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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...then you can use the much shorter 1040EZ (get it? "EZ"? Taxes can be fun!) instead of the normal 1040 form.I'll stifle the groan at that line as I prepare to go to the IRS office for the second time in less than a month to wait in line for five hours to get a piece of paper that takes two minutes for them to get.
On a more related note, Perhaps you are right. It's just...eh. It's a time investing thing where I just don't feel like I have the time to be doing this sheet and that sheet and perusing what everybody has and trying to figure out of it's all legal or not.
When the trade off is between filling out forms/questioning the truthfulness of the people I am going to play with...or working on the thing that is going to make the next session awesome, that bit of custom terrain or that bit of polish to an encounter or this or that prop that the players will love and hang onto or aging a piece of paper into an old scroll that shows the location of the ancient tomb...
To me it's no contest where to put that extra time and effort and it's not into forms and audits. Maybe I'm just one of those stodgy luddite people who is screaming at the tide rolling in even as they drown and is too stubborn to move. I'll just do what I usually do and breeze into the Con and just see if there is an overload at the tables and volunteer to run something non-PFS if nobody minds. Usually have my mobile gm kit in my backpack at all times anyways. Maybe I'll check out a PFS game or two and see what I think like some people have suggested if it isn't too full.
And that is why the onus was placed on the player and not the GM. The GM can still make terrain or polish an encounter because the player is responsible for maintaining his own equipment list.
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Step 1: Player shows up with ITS Sheet
Step 2: GM Glances at it to ensure no red flags jump out
Step 3: GM says, "ok, when I hand out the chronicles, make sure you put the note indicating how much was spent on this ITS sheet"
Step 4: Play
Step 5: GM fills out and signs chronicle sheets like normal.
Step 6: Player writes note on chronicle sheet for purchases on ITS sheet.
As much as I would like to, we (Paizo) don't have the time to go back and add that to more than 130 Chronicle Sheets.Mike,
Can we get a small line added to the chronicle sheets?
"Purchased items: __________ gp"It would likely be neater than various scrawls, may address some of the comments/concerns raised in the various threads, and hopefully ensure that all the GMs and players know that they only need to enter the gp value on that line and not record every purchase in notes section.
Could we get it on the chronicle sheets going forward?