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Ok, so... I was in the midst of putting together a character - in this case a Fighter [yep, Fighter :D] based on a 25 point build, when I started pondering abuot this one - How effective can one be at "tanking" with a Two Handed Weapon?
Some of the items that condition my build for this particular character:
- I have read many, many of the posts on the boards about fighters not being efficient classes, and about the fact that Pathfinder is not an MMO and tanking means a balance between being a threat that needs to be dealt with (usually causing damage or another harrassment), having defensive capabilities, and being able to assit also others at defending themselves;
- I am interested in creating a fighter that is able to do more than combat, so you will find what you may believe to be an abnormal investment in "non-combat" characteristics, like traits or feats - being a fighter I am hoping I will have enough feats to be combat effective, and still be able to spend some feats in other areas here and there;
- What I was looking then, is a balance between nasty offensive capabilities - being able to put out the hurt, but also a degree of versatility and defensive ability - this was a reason that took me to placing UMD as a class skill :D
- This time I want to go melee and not ranged.
That being said, I started looking at ways to obviate the Fighters' appalling lack of skills - I've been wandering left and right between multiclassing Ranger, chosing the Tactician Archetype, chosing the Lorewarden Archetype, or a combination thereof - however I am concerned at the fact that those arechetypes lose the access to the Heavy Armor Proficiency. Correct me if I am wrong, but if I add ranger character levels to a fighter, the only ability I end up not being able to use would be casting spells - is this assumption correct?
I'm posting 3 of the options below with some of my considerations.
Unnamed Hero
Male Human Fighter (Tactician) 4
CG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +9
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Defense
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AC 18, touch 13, flat-footed 15 (+5 armor, +2 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 37 (4d10+12)
Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +2
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee Greatsword +6 (2d6+12/19-20/x2)
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Statistics
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Str 19, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 11
Base Atk +4; CMB +8; CMD 21
Feats Cleave, Cosmopolitan (Knowledge [local], Knowledge [planes]), Dodge, Power Attack -2/+4, Toughness +4
Traits Dangerously Curious, Valashmai Veteran (Perception)
Skills Acrobatics -1 (-5 jump), Climb +1, Diplomacy +7, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (local) +8, Knowledge (planes) +8, Linguistics +5, Perception +9, Ride -1, Stealth -1, Survival +8, Swim +1, Use Magic Device +8
Languages Abyssal, Common, Daemonic, Goblin, Infernal
Other Gear Scale mail, Greatsword, 5900 GP
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Special Abilities
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Cleave If you hit a foe, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus but take -2 AC.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Valashmai Veteran (Perception) +1 trait bonus on Survival in the jungle.
Unnamed Hero
Male Human Fighter (Lore Warden) 4
CG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +9
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Defense
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AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 37 (4d10+12)
Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +3
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Greatsword +8 (2d6+6/19-20/x2)
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Statistics
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Str 19, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 11
Base Atk +4; CMB +10; CMD 23
Feats Cleave, Combat Expertise +/-2, Cosmopolitan (Diplomacy, Use Magic Device), Dodge, Great Cleave, Power Attack -2/+4, Toughness +4
Traits Indomitable Faith, Valashmai Veteran (Perception)
Skills Acrobatics +0, Climb +6, Diplomacy +7, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Knowledge (local) +8, Knowledge (planes) +8, Linguistics +7, Perception +9, Ride +0, Stealth +0, Survival +8, Swim +2, Use Magic Device +7
Languages Abyssal, Common, Daemonic, Draconic, Goblin, Infernal, Orc
Other Gear Lamellar (leather) armor, Greatsword, 40 GP
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Special Abilities
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Cleave If you hit a foe, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus but take -2 AC.
Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Valashmai Veteran (Perception) +1 trait bonus on Survival in the jungle.
Reknar
Male Human Fighter 2 Ranger 2
CG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +8
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Defense
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AC 18, touch 13, flat-footed 15 (+5 armor, +2 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 37 (4d10+12)
Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +1 (+1 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +1
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee Greatsword +6 (2d6+12/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks favored enemy (evil outsiders +2)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 0):
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Statistics
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Str 19, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 11
Base Atk +4; CMB +8; CMD 21
Feats Cleave, Cosmopolitan (Knowledge [local], Knowledge [planes]), Dodge, Great Cleave, Power Attack -2/+4, Toughness +4
Traits Dangerously Curious, Ease of Faith
Skills Acrobatics -2 (-6 jump), Bluff +0 (+2 vs. evil outsiders), Climb +0, Diplomacy +8, Escape Artist -2, Fly -2, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (local) +8 (+10 vs. evil outsiders), Knowledge (planes) +8 (+10 vs. evil outsiders), Perception +8 (+10 vs. evil outsiders), Ride -2, Sense Motive +1 (+3 vs. evil outsiders), Stealth -2, Survival +8 (+10 vs. evil outsiders, +9 to track), Swim +0, Use Magic Device +8
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Infernal
SQ combat styles (two-handed weapon), track, wild empathy
Combat Gear Vermin repellent; Other Gear Scale mail, Greatsword, Chalk (9), Cold weather outfit, Crowbar, Flint and steel, Silk rope, Waterskin, 4022 GP, 9 SP, 7 CP
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +1 (Ex) +1 to Will save vs. Fear
Cleave If you hit a foe, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus but take -2 AC.
Cold weather outfit +5 Fort save vs. cold weather.
Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders).
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Track +1 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Wild Empathy +2 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Feats:
The tactician seems to lag a tad behind the Loremaster and the Multiclass FIghter/Ranger -> Namely he does not reach Great Cleave by level 4, with the added advantage for the Lore Warden that he gains Combat Expertise still
Skills:
In terms of juggling around class skills and whatnot, they all seem quite balanced, though the Tactician, with the added Diplomacy can pull off Indomitable Faith.
The Fighter/Ranger seems to be the winner in this case, in terms of sheer amount of skill points, though really not by much to be honest.
In general they all do seem quite balanced.
Armor:
Loremaster is the same as the others simply because I really did not upgrade the gear - he is bound to lag behind since he has only access to Light Armor -> Not good for a tank.
Overall, it is not easy to make such a comparison, since:
- Most of the more important abilities in each case come into fruition a tad later on each archetypes, and even for the ranger itself;
- They seem to be quite on par, with the added issue of the Loremaster having almost necessarily a worse AC;
- It is also hard to gauge he contribution of the ranger -> Stuff like Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain can make a difference, though I guess it would take at least 6 ranger levels to come into play;
- I have taken UMD with the purpose of being a more self sufficient melee combatant -> This can hopefully make a difference for the shortcomings of each of the lesser strengths in any of the above, like armor bonus for the Loremaster, etc;
- Again, all the others can simply drop the 2 handed weapon and grab a shield, but not the Loremaster -> I wonder if at this point Combat Expertise makes up for that somewhat?
Still, and bottom line, I would like to have your appreciation in regards a couple of things:
- The viability of a 2 handed weapon tank type of character;
- The feat progression for such character because... I am really choked on what to take after Great Cleave, and actually even thinking if Great Cleave comes up that often;
- Also, please disregard the fact that I missed Furious Focus - I am inexperienced at playing 2 handed weapon fighters;
- In terms of utility for such type of tank what, if any, of the options above you find more logic -> Basically I am going for a bruiser that cannot be ignored, to which I would want to add some defensive capabilities, though I am not sure which...
- Looking on the "tank" perspective, what do you think about these guys' survivability chances?
- Yes, I know, probably some levels of Barb should be thrown into that mix but... I didn't want to stretch the cheese too much;
- In the future I would envision this guy as taking the Leadership feat, and wading into it with his followers in suit -> hence I did not dump Charisma fully, and want to keep Diplomacy at a decent level;
- From your experience, since mine is not that overwhelming with this kind of characters, have you played any of the above at higher levels in any role similar to "tanking"? How was it?
So, apologies for the massive post and... Thoughts?
Two-handed weapons do much more damage than 1-handers, and will cause enemies to focus on you as more than a threat. If you have sky-high AC but can't do much damage, enemies will just go around you.
Tactician is a crappy archetype in comparison to Lore Warden. Also, Cleave is useful at lower levels when you don't have any Iterative attacks -- however, make sure you use a fighter bonus feat to get it so you can retrain it. Great Cleave is probably not worth it.
I also wouldn't get dodge unless you want the feats that have it as a prereq. +1 AC for a martial who can just get more armor is not worth a feat.
The Lore Warden lack of armor proficiency seems like a detriment, but you can add it back in by either taking a level or two of Ranger, or a feat in Medium armor proficiency.
You could just get a Large Heavy Shield and go at it, taking all of the Shield feats. You'd make a great Tank AND a great DPR character.
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Two handed weapons are like gold. Think Conan and Elric. Can't go wrong. High strength and power attack, that's pretty much it.
You're not so much the armored guy as you are the damage dealer. Go attack and destroy things.
Buy a shield, and strap it to your back. It'll be useful here and there.
If you really like cleave, I'd move eventually to a reach weapon.
Why not ranger 2/ lore warden 2? Still get medium armor from ranger, and average five skill points a level, with quite a nice list of class skills.
You might also like inquisitor. They do very well when built for melee, I'm having great fun with mine.
Might also want to look at invulnerable barbarian. Easily get a +6 to con and half your level in DR? Add in dazing assault and come and get me later on. Scaling natural armor and super saves from Rage Powers. I believe we call him... Am Barbarian.
Anyways, AC isn't always the best. Crane wing outright removes an attack, DR reduces damage if your hit, and having a large amount of HP is another way to tank(but not always the best way to get luv from the heala'.)
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Here's something to look at for mid to higher levels. I think its a great combo for those times you cant full attack.
Power attack+Improve/Greater Trip+Felling Smash+Vital Strike/Improved.
Calling out the combo: Power attack, Vital Strike standard action, if you hit, Felling Smash.
Damage:With a great sword by 11th level you do: 6d6+power attack 9+str 6+weapon training 2+weapon enhancement 3. Followed by a greater trip. AoO from trip 2d6+power attack 9+str 6+weapon training 2+weapon enhancement 3.
And thats a standard attack action. Both attacks are at max attack minus power attack.
UMD is not such an important skill for fighters tbh. Access to a wand and the occasional plot device is nice, but usually someone else on the team gets the job done cheaper and better than you. That said, taking Lore Warden and picking up the trait Pragmatic Activator from Ultimate Campaign not only gets it on you class skill list, but lets you use your INT instead of CHA allowing you more points in your point buy. I like Lore Wardens as a means of going into Duelist myself, who despite having only light armor, are incredibly good at not getting hit by things.
If you want something to do out of combat, you need to figure out what that is. I am sick of seeing people who want fighters to do something out of combat and then not have any idea what they want from their fighter once they get there. Have a plan dude.
The Lore Master is fantastic, maxing Spellcraft, and having Knowledges to identify enemies makes you hella useful in combat. The lack of armor just means you can spend those extra skills on Acrobatics and tumble around the battlefield. Being able to identify things in combat and deriving strategies to beat them make the lore master an amazing variant, though the uses out of combat are less useful beyond maybe making a neat History check or something.
Rangers make the best scouts, Perception, Stealth, Survival, and a couple Knowledges make rangers extremely useful out of combat, and being able to use wands of cure light through cure serious without needing any ranks into UMD make them pretty much the best martial class and skill monkey combination in the game. Certain archetypes even get you access to Trapfinding and you can pick up Disable Device making the character not only ridiculously useful out of combat, but you are still a full BAB class with a free combat style feeding your combat prowess with feats leaving your feats open to characterization if you need.
Paladins are also extremely good out of combat. If your paladin doesn't have the 13 INT for access to Unsanctioned Knowledge, then I cannot help you. Most paladin builds do not need to invest their favored class point into HP, nor do they need to buy as high of a CON as everyone else due to having access to Lay on Hands and the ability to use cure light through serious wands also. Out of combat, the paladin makes the perfect party face with access to spells like zone of truth, and high CHA and Diplomacy as a class skill.
Two handed weapons are great for 2 reasons:
1) They can deal about 1.5x the amount of damage per hit that a one handed weapon can, and 2x the amount of damage that an off hand weapon can. For builds with low attack bonuses, or less attacks due to the requirement to actually move on the battlefield, you won't find better damage output, and-
2) It is not feat intensive, really only requires Power Attack, and maybe Weapon Focus or Furious Focus at later levels. Leaving feats open is a very good thing.
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Tanking is weird in pathfinder because there is no threat system. You have to make yourself a presence in the field of battle. In the cause of two-handed fighters, this is in my opinion reach reasons. Make it so your enemies can't go past you and can't ignore you. Trip them and the like.
If you want a heavily armored "tank" wielding a two-handed sword, may I suggest paladin? With the right feat(fey foundling) and possibly favorable class/trait (Tiefling and blessed touch, respectively) you can do a lot of damage, making yourself difficult to ignore, and instead of stopping all incoming damage you simply heal it off with Lay on Hands.
There is a threat system, it's called the GM's best judgement about what this particular creature would consider to be the greatest threat.
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What I meant is there isn't any taunts, and specifically tank characters, even though they do less damage, generate more threat in MMOs like wow through enhanced threat abilities that force enemies to attack the more insignificant tanks.
The only thing close that we have is antagonize, and that is poor action economy.
What I meant is there isn't any taunts, and specifically tank characters, even though they do less damage, generate more threat in MMOs like wow through enhanced threat abilities that force enemies to attack the more insignificant tanks.
The only thing close that we have is antagonize, and that is poor action economy.
I agree, more feats like Cornugon Smash need to work like Antagonize.
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I agree, more feats like Cornugon Smash need to work like Antagonize.What I meant is there isn't any taunts, and specifically tank characters, even though they do less damage, generate more threat in MMOs like wow through enhanced threat abilities that force enemies to attack the more insignificant tanks.
The only thing close that we have is antagonize, and that is poor action economy.
Really I liked how 4E did their tanking...or at least how I think they did their tanking(I didn't look too long). It wasn't so much a taunt you HAVE to attack me, but there were tangible penalties to ignoring, be it AOOs or numerical penalties. I think some PrCs have this, and Bodyguard is similar.
Hence why I said how pathfinder "tanking" worked as compared to MMO tanking. And if you say Pathfinder needs no tanks, most RPGs have thematically had the Front-liner who takes the hits.Well, we don't need too much MMO influence in the game.
That's what you play MMOs for, not Pathfinder.
They have "Guy who can take hits" in most fantasy RPGs. The only real tanky tanks I know in tabletops are the kinds with treads and mounted cannons. The agro mechanic is whatever you make of it, which may be for the best. Ideally positioning and AoOs can create a tactical tanking, but most of the good ways to do that were lost in the transition from 3.5. We find other ways to do it anyway. The best way is to remain a threat and be survivable. Super high AC monks get walked around, but a pouncecharging barbarian with CAGM might be a little harder to ignore.
Dot.
I think the closest I can see to what you are looking for is an honor guard cavalier, order of the shield. Get a big damage boost to challenged foe and lowered ac against only them to entice them. Intercept attacks, aid another ac boosts (if you can't intervene directly). Semi DR with converting damage to nonleathal. Bonus to hit if challenged foe attacks someone else. That seems like plenty of incentive to have the big bads try to knock the snot out of you. Plus plenty of social skill opportunities.
Fighter: Unbreakable Archtype, Stalwart line of feats, Crane Style to decrease the penalty to hit (just the first feat), Racial Heritage halfling to get Cautious Fighter.
Barbarian/Fighter: Unarmed Fighter Archtype, Invulnerable Rager Archtype. Take endurance and diehard, racial heritage halfling to get cautious fighter, the stalwart line. Crane style of course. This will get you better DR and skills than the straight fighter. If you want some different skills, the Urban Barbarian archtype stacks here.
All you really need for both is Power Attack. Tribal Scars is a fun little feat to add for Max HP, but you need to be kellid or part of a kellid tribe.
While not super effective, shield of swings can net you 4 ac if needed.
In answer to one of your questions: Rangers lose their style feat whilst in heavy armour.
What I meant is there isn't any taunts, and specifically tank characters, even though they do less damage, generate more threat in MMOs like wow through enhanced threat abilities that force enemies to attack the more insignificant tanks.
The only thing close that we have is antagonize, and that is poor action economy.
Of course there are taunts. "You ugly dwarven son of a goblin! You smell like a warthog's backside!" A clever GM will find something you can roll against (Bluff, maybe, or intimidate) to try to get the NPC you're shouting at to focus on you in response to such a taunt, although of course there aren't any specific rules for it. (I would favor Bluff, opposed by Sense Motive -- success by the opponent allows hir to realize you're trying to draw hir attention away from your teammates.)
Now if by taunts you mean an artificial game mechanic to force NPCs to attack you even if it's not in their best interest regardless of roleplay, then no.
I don't think there needs to be any such thing.
Ok, I am still here, and after reading through all of your comments (thank you for all the feedback guys) - I've got a sketch of what seems to be a start for the 2-handed weapon tank :D
Male Human Fighter (Lore Warden) 1
Init +2;
Perception +2
AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 15 (1d10+5)
Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +2
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Greatsword +4 (2d6+9/19-20/x2) with Power Attack
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 10
Base Atk +1; CMB +5; CMD 17
Feats
Additional Traits,
Power Attack -1/+2,
Toughness +3
Traits
Indomitable Faith,
Pragmatic Activator,
Threatening Defender,
World Traveler (Diplomacy)
Skills
Acrobatics +0,
Climb +2,
Diplomacy +5,
Escape Artist +0,
Fly +0,
Knowledge (local) +6,
Knowledge (planes) +6,
Linguistics +6,
Perception +2,
Ride +0,
Stealth +0,
Survival +5,
Swim +2,
Use Magic Device +8
Languages Abyssal, Common, Goblin, Infernal
Some considerations:
- I know many of the trait and stats options are sub-optimal, like not having dump stats, and CON13, but as I said from the start I am hoping this guy will be able to do more than combat;
- For that same reason, you will notice that some of the traits follow the same line;
- As far as skills go, these can be modified if I am given a chance to do so before I fully join a group -> Knowledges can be shifted towards ones that the group does not cover for some reason, and even UMD can be removed;
- I was on the fence with the feats, and would like to hear your opinion on them -> Thought Dodge, but in fact that +1 seems... short. Since the AC is kinda low, Toughness seemed like a logical choice, 15hp at level 1 is not bad at all, right?
So lets say that the Lore Warden above is the basis, I have been thinking on how to make him "tanky" in that "I will hurt you if you ignore me" sense + being tough enough to take a couple of hits and hit the ground running + piling some defensive capabilities that will assist him in protecting others (either by offering direct protection somehow or being able to quickly traverse the battlefield to bisect the guy that thought he could cross the front line, and attack the archer or the caster in the back).
I was thinking something like:
Lvl 1: Lore Warden
Lvl 2: Ranger
Adding Ranger seems decent enough
- Allows me to continue having a high amount of skill points;
- Gives me a favored enemy (+2 will probably not amount to much in the long run but still...);
- Allows me to track;
- Allows me to freely use wands that emulate Ranger Spells;
- Adds Perception to the class skill list
- AND adds Medium armor Proficiency.
Lvl 3: Fighter
- Skills are still high
- Combat Expertise as a Bonus (To complement some more the absence of a shield)
- Feat chosen: Iron Will
Lvl 4: Ranger
I'm on the fence about several things here:
- Is it worth it to push another ranger level?
I believe so for the added skills, combat style feat (am on the fence between cleave - seems like a bad option since if it was chosen as a fighter bonus feat I would be able to swap it out later on, or Pushing Assault. Shield of Swings..? Meh)
Feat chosen: (Am in doubt where to go from here)
Dodge -> Mobility -> Stuff like Spring Attack and/or Combat Patrol?
Improved Trip -> Felling Smash and the likes?
Step Up -> Following Step > Step Up and Strike?
Cleave-> Great Cleave?
Any other? I need your input here :D
Thank you for any input on this one - I have still some comments to add regarding your feedback above, I will add it as I have more available time.