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Can you attack with a Buckler Gun outside of two weapon fighting, such as an attack as a standard action?
I would say yes, you'd just have to use it as an off-hand attack as per the weapon description.
Yes, you apply the applicable penalties for it being an off hand weapon.
-8 or -2 if you have the TWF Feat.
Normally I'd agree BBT, but this item isn't a normal item. Since it says its always an off-hand item I'd say that anything to modify an off-hand weapon can be used. Otherwise they'd have just said "this weapon is always fired at a -X penalty." (which they probably should have just done, imo.)
from TWF:
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6.
Emphasis mine.
If the weapon is always treated as off hand then you should be able to benefit in reductions to off hand attacks- such as the 6 point reduction through the feat.
-S
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The alternative makes more sense. Since 'off hand' only exists in TWF, 'always considered an off hand weapon' means that every single time you are TWFing and must designate an off hand weapon, you must always choose the buckler gun if you use it at all in that full attack.
That makes a lot more sense, and seems in line with the intent.
Outside of two weapon fighting, being an off-hand has no meaning. I think you can use a buckler gun as your primary weapon without penalty(guns are not affected by the attack penalty from bucklers).
using only the buckler gun: buckler gun +0
(OR -2/-2 with rapid shot OR +0/-5 with iterative attacks)
TWF with buckler gun and <other>: <other> -6, buckler gun -10
and with TWF feat: <other> -4, buckler gun -4
So there is no benefit from using a buckler gun and a light weapon when two weaopn fighting.
I guess if you make the false assumption that off hand only exists in TWF that would be correct.
I'm not going to base my points on that false assumption though.
But it no effect outside of TWF. Wielding a warhammer and a battleaxe and using each once with iteratives carries no penalty.
it'd be:
warhammer +6, warhammer +1, or
battleaxe +6, battleaxe +1, or
warhammer +6, battleaxe +1, or
battleaxe +6, warhammer +1
So there's no penalty whether it's an off-hand or not, so there's (at the least in effect) no off-hand outside of TWF
I don't agree on the half damage on iteratives, but I see your point.
(EDIT: even with the sentence added)
The "lose AC from buckler" assumes you're using it(got it strapped) on your off-hand. (Like shield bash used to, but was clarified.)
The correct interpretation(mine field, I know) is when you're attacking with the hand to which the buckler is strapped(whether primary, off-hand or 2H). Not as a magical transfer of uselessness to another arm.
But your RAW-fu seems good.
If this is actually how it's supposed to be done (not casting my vote just yet, mind you), it'd be -10 or -4 if you have the TWF feat because a Buckler Gun isn't a light melee weapon; it's a 1-h firearm.Yes, you apply the applicable penalties for it being an off hand weapon.
-8 or -2 if you have the TWF Feat.
Since a Light Shield is a light weapon, I am going with a Buckler also qualifying as a light weapon for those penalties.
For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon.
The alternative makes more sense. Since 'off hand' only exists in TWF, 'always considered an off hand weapon' means that every single time you are TWFing and must designate an off hand weapon, you must always choose the buckler gun if you use it at all in that full attack.
When did the word ALWAYS change its definition to be sometimes?
The Two Weapon Fighting feat note that it reduces the penalties for two weapon fighting, and has no caveat for reducing anything else.
Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)
You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting in Combat.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.
The bolded sentence states the penalty reductions, since the Buckler Gun uses the "off hand" penalties, it would reduce them whether you are TWF or using a weapon in your "off hand" otherwise.
The Tekko-Kagi is also used on the "off hand."
Tekko-Kagi
Price 2 gp
Type exotic
Also known as an iron claw, this device consists of a fanlike structure of three or more 10-inch blades secured to a sturdy handle strapped to the forearm of the off hand. It can be used as an offensive weapon or defensively like a buckler, or used to disarm an opponent without provoking an attack of opportunity. It provides its owner with a +2 circumstance bonus on attempts to disarm or sunder swords or other slender-bladed weapons.
I get the logical intent of the buckler's rules, but as you can see the rules written don't actually say what one would assume the intent was. Personally, I think it should only lose the bonus if you use the arm it is on, and that's the way we play in my games, I'm just pointing out the RAW.
Fair enough, that should really be clarified in the CRB like shield bash was.
I guess if you make the false assumption that off hand only exists in TWF that would be correct.
I'm not going to base my points on that false assumption though.
But it no effect outside of TWF. Wielding a warhammer and a battleaxe and using each once with iteratives carries no penalty.
it'd be:
warhammer +6, warhammer +1, or
battleaxe +6, battleaxe +1, or
warhammer +6, battleaxe +1, or
battleaxe +6, warhammer +1So there's no penalty whether it's an off-hand or not, so there's (at the least in effect) no off-hand outside of TWF
If you read my post above you'll see that I agree there is no penalty to attack. The effects caused by being an off hand weapon are A) half strength and B) loss of buckler bonus to AC.
Only the second would apply to the buckler gun.
Let's use your example for clarification. Assume for a moment that your Warhammer had a sentence at the end stating to the effect of, "this weapon is always treated as an off hand weapon." Let's also assume that you have a Str of 18 for this purpose.
If you aren't TWF, your choices would be, in the order you posted them:
warhammer +6, warhammer +1, (both half strength damage) or
battleaxe +6, battleaxe +1, (both full strength damage) or
warhammer +6, battleaxe +1, (Warhammer at half strength damage) or
battleaxe +6, warhammer +1 (Warhammer at half strength damage)In addition, if you were wearing a buckler, you would always lose the buckler AC bonus when you attacked with the Warhammer because you lose the bonus when you attack with a weapon in the off hand (and the warhammer would always be an off hand weapon).
The point is that Off Hand has properties of it's own that are independent of TWF. We usually only see them when people are TWF, but they are there at all times.
Booksy, for that reading to be valid it would have to say: Because of its awkward construction, a buckler gun is always considered an off-handed weapon when two weapon fighting.
The italics are the bit that I added. As it stands, it is always an off hand weapon, not just in the case of using a specific full attack action.
Pathfinder got rid of "handedness" whichever weapon you make your primary attack with is your primary hand and receives full strength bonus, even if you switch between iterative attacks.
The correct listing for those attacks are:
warhammer +6, warhammer +1, or
battleaxe +6, battleaxe +1, or
warhammer +6, battleaxe +1, or
battleaxe +6, warhammer +1
All at full strength damage.
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Let's look at the other part:
Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)
You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting in Combat.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.
Also, most weapons that refer to the off-hand, are simply under the assumption that is how you will be using them.
Remember, the shield bash entry noted "off hand", and we know that from this FAQ, that it is an occurrence prevalent throughout the rules.
Let's look at the other part:
Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)
You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting in Combat.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.
Also, most weapons that refer to the off-hand, are simply under the assumption that is how you will be using them.
Remember, the shield bash entry noted "off hand", and we know that from this FAQ, that it is an occurrence prevalent throughout the rules.
Remember also that the TWF rules and such, were written before the Buckler Gun. I am trying to apply the rules in the most sensible way.