In a recent game I was hosting one of my players and I had a disagreement about the classification of "bonus damage" such as precision damage from a rogue's sneak attack or a ranger's favored enemy.
My player thinks that the bonus damage is its own type, and is not susceptible to things like DR. I think that bonus damage is the same type as the base damage.
For example, a rogue sneak attacks an orc with a dagger. My friend says he does 1d4+Str piercing damage plus 3d6 sneak attack damage.
Whereas I would say that the rogue does 1d4+Str plus 3d6 piercing damage. If the rogue was an arcane trickster using scorching ray, then both the ray's damage and the sneak attack damage would all be fire damage, and would be summed up before applying resistances and the like.
Are there any rules or official statements to backup either stance?
I know that I have read it, but can't say where, may be as old as 3.5, but any additional untyped damage is of the same type as the original damage.
So, sneak attack damage would be piercing, in the case you provided.
If you did a sneak attack with a Scorching Ray it would be fire damage.
Precision Damage: Precision damage is a special type of damage, which might more appropriately be called a "category" of damage because any of the other damage types listed here might also be considered "precision" damage under the right circumstances. Precision damage is usually dealt by classes like the rogue when he is able to catch an opponent unable to fully protect itself. Precision damage assumes that the target has a somewhat normal anatomy or at least has a physical form which might have weak spots which could be detected or taken advantage of. Previous editions of the game (prior to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game) limited what sorts of creatures are vulnerable to precision damage more than the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game does. This was a deliberate change to make a key class feature of classes like the rogue more frequently usable. Attacks which affect areas (such as splash weapons) usually do not deal precision damage.
Sneak Attacks are NOT the same damage dice as the original attack. Sneak attacks are their own damage type different from all other types of damage, as stated above. By your ruling, if I were wielding a +3 keen, flaming, thundering, axiomatic Katana, my Sneak Attack would be considered to do fire, thunder, and lawful damage as part of it's damage base. Sneak attack is it's own damage type different from all others, so it's not doing the damage type of the weapon that it's being delivered through.
Come on guys, what happened to the good old tradition of using one's brain?
If I stab you in the eye with a rapier it's not going to be like stabbing you in the thigh and adding tons of mystical bonus damage.
And if a monster has fire immunity, you scorching ray will do exactly nothing, no matter where you hit it.
Let's have a look here.
In short from those myriad of threads, yes Sneak Attack damage is reduced by DR, but not separately. The damage is the total damage from weapon and Sneak Attack, that total would be reduced by the DR.
Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable.The numerical part of a creature's damage reduction (or DR) is the amount of damage the creature ignores from normal attacks. Usually, a certain type of weapon can overcome this reduction (see Overcoming DR). This information is separated from the damage reduction number by a slash. For example, DR 5/magic means that a creature takes 5 less points of damage from all weapons that are not magic. If a dash follows the slash, then the damage reduction is effective against any attack that does not ignore damage reduction.
Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk's stunning, and injury-based disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.
Attacks that deal no damage because of the target's damage reduction do not disrupt spells.
Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction.
Sometimes damage reduction represents instant healing. Sometimes it represents the creature's tough hide or body. In either case, other characters can see that conventional attacks won't work.
If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.
The bolded are things that ignore DR. Precision/sneak attack damage are not one of those things, even if precision damage isn't the same as type of damage as the weapon that delivers it. Its actually better for it to be the same type of damage because otherwise your dagger that deals piercing damage against a moster with DR 10 piercing will deal weapon damage fine, but your sneak attack would get reduced by 10.
I believe precision damage is its own type for things that specifically apply to precision damage, but the damage style has the base type of the weapon as well.
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Sneak Attacks are NOT the same damage dice as the original attack. Sneak attacks are their own damage type different from all other types of damage, as stated above. By your ruling, if I were wielding a +3 keen, flaming, thundering, axiomatic Katana, my Sneak Attack would be considered to do fire, thunder, and lawful damage as part of it's damage base. Sneak attack is it's own damage type different from all others, so it's not doing the damage type of the weapon that it's being delivered through.
No, sneak attacks aren't their own damage type. Let's put aside the over-enhanced weapon example for a second, and use the simplist possible example: A level 1 rogue stabbing someone with a rapier.
If the rogue doesn't have a sneak attack, then it's just 1d6 piercing damage. If they get a flank or catch the enemy flat footed, then "she can strike a vital spot for extra damage", to quote the description of the Sneak Attack class ability from the Core Rulebook. So they're doing an extra 1d6 damage, because they put the pointy end of the rapier between his ribs, instead of just a random spot, resulting in 2d6 damage instead of 1d6. It's still all piercing damage.
It's the same way that a 12 strength doesn't mean that the rogue does 1 point of "strength damage" every hit. It's an extra point of damage, but it's still the same piercing damage as everything else done by the weapon. And Power Attack doesn't do "Power Attack Damage". It just adds higher numbers of piercing damage, or whatever type of damage the weapon in question does. If it's a rapier, it's piercing damage. If it's a club, it's bludgeoning damage. If it's a scorching ray, it's fire damage, and something with immunity to fire is still immune to all of it. As Hardwool said, if something's immune to fire, then hitting a crucial spot with fire won't hurt it any more. Sneak attacking with a Scorching Ray won't hurt a fire elemental.
And if it's a +3 keen, flaming, thundering, axiomatic katana, it's mostly slashing damage, with an additional 1d6 fire damage, 1d8 sonic damage on a crit, and all of the damage types are lawful aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction (but the extra 2d6 damage against a chaotic foe is still slashing, not "lawful damage", because of the wording of the axiomatic quality, which I just looked up).
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From the Ask James Jacobs thread
8) If your additional damage from sneak attack or bane doesn't add up with your base damage to a number high enough to overcome damage reduction, then yes, the damage reduction can block it. Stuff like bane and sneak attack just adds to the damage done; it doesn't grant any special penetration power.
Daniel, the original damage type of your weapon is piercing, not fire etc. Sneak attack damage would be of that original type, not the other additional types. Just like the base damage type of the wepon did not change when you added those abilities, either did the sneak attack damage.
To rule otherwise would be very detrimental to the rogue. Imagine attacking with a magic weapon. Based on your take, the sneak attack damage would not be magical, since it is only an in typed add on.
Daniel, the original damage type of your weapon is piercing, not fire etc. Sneak attack damage would be of that original type, not the other additional types. Just like the base damage type of the wepon did not change when you added those abilities, either did the sneak attack damage.
To rule otherwise would be very detrimental to the rogue. Imagine attacking with a magic weapon. Based on your take, the sneak attack damage would not be magical, since it is only an in typed add on.
FYI
Editor's Note: The following information was compiled form various places in the Pathfinder rules for ease of reference. The text (as shown below) is not available in the Core Rulebook or in the PRD and is only meant as an aid to understanding various aspects of the different damage types. If you see or believe you see an error, please let us know.
Damage Types: There are many "types" of damage in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. Here are some of the more common forms:
Weapon/Natural Attacks
Weapon/natural attacks typically deal hit point (hp) damage and as such can be reduced by damage reduction.
Bludgeoning: Bludgeoning damage is typically caused by blunt objects such as clubs, hammers, boulders, or natural attacks that are blunt in nature. Some spells that summon or conjure solid objects may also say the damage the spell deals is bludgeoning damage. A monsters slam attacks usually deal bludgeoning damage.
Piercing: Piercing damage is typically dealt by physical attacks that stab or thrust. A monster's gore or sting attacks usually deal piercing damage.
Slashing: Slashing damage is typically caused by sharp-edged weapons or natural physical attacks that cut. A monsters claws and talons usually deal slashing damage.Energy Damage
Energy damage is typically dealt by spells (usually evocation spells such as fireball or cone of cold) and typically deals hit point (hp) damage, but unlike damage dealt by weapons or natural attacks, damage reduction usually is not effective against it. Instead, a creature typically must have energy resistance to reduce the amount of damage it takes from one of these sources.
Spells or effects with any of the descriptors [acid], [cold], [electricity], [fire], or [sonic] typically deal energy damage. Energy resistance is usually effective against these types of energy damage.
Special Damage Types
Ability Damage: Ability damage is a special type of damage that applies to a creatures ability scores, not to its hit points as most other damage types do. When a creature takes ability damage it applies a penalty to all skills and other checks which are normally affected or modified by that ability score. Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal ability damage. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability. Damage reduction is not effective against ability damage because damage reduction reduces the number of hit points of damage an attack deals whereas ability damage is not hp (hit point) damage.
Nonlethal: Nonlethal damage is typically dealt by blunt natural attacks such as fists. Unlike weapon or natural attacks, nonlethal damage does not reduce a creatures current hit points (hp) but instead is tracked separately. When the amount of nonlethal damage a creature has taken equals its current hit points it gains the staggered condition. When the amount of nonlethal damage a creature has taken exceeds its current hit points it gains the unconscious condition. Nonlethal damage is healed (recovered) much more quickly than hit point (hp) damage.
Precision Damage: Precision damage is a special type of damage, which might more appropriately be called a "category" of damage because any of the other damage types listed here might also be considered "precision" damage under the right circumstances. Precision damage is usually dealt by classes like the rogue when he is able to catch an opponent unable to fully protect itself. Precision damage assumes that the target has a somewhat normal anatomy or at least has a physical form which might have weak spots which could be detected or taken advantage of. Previous editions of the game (prior to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game) limited what sorts of creatures are vulnerable to precision damage more than the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game does. This was a deliberate change to make a key class feature of classes like the rogue more frequently usable. Attacks which affect areas (such as splash weapons) usually do not deal precision damage.
Positive and Negative Energy: Negative energy attacks a creatures life force and is typically dealt by undead or necromantic effects. Positive energy instills a surge of life energy which typically heals living creatures but damages undead creatures. While it is referred to as "energy" energy resistance typically isn't effective against either of these types of energy.
The above quote is taken directly from the 'common terms' section of this site within this link under 'damage'. The link will lead you to this above posted quote stating the different types of special damage, of which precision damage is part of. Note that in the Sneak Attack sidebar of the Rogue class on this site that the precision damage done by the sneak attack is listed as a special damage type. Since Sneak Attacks are their own damage type, they wouldn't be added to your weapon damage dice, nor would the SA be modified by any feats that modify weapon damage dice unless that feat specifically stated that it did so.
Now you can harp on me for simply posting these things as you like, and I personally don't care if you do, because I see no problem with anyone house-ruling Sneak Attacks to work differently then they actually do. By RAW, sneak attacks are their own damage type, but you could rule the SA to be part of weapon damage dice if you want to, and I'll be just as happy with that ruling. I personally rule that Sneak Attacks bypass Magic, cold iron, and silver DR anyway.
I've always played that sneak attacks are of the same damage type as the attack that caused them. Regardless of the RAW, it makes more sense to me <shrug>.
On another note... In the OP's example the attack was made with scorching ray. Both the initial attack and (if you use the same damage type i.e. magic fire) the sneak attack bypass DR.
Just a note, when citing rules I generally try to use the PRD. The d20 site, while very helpful, is not official; it's not maintained by the Paizo folks, and in several cases the 'unofficial FAQs' they have there have been contradicted by actual FAQs from Paizo.
That all said, the fact is that the passage about precision damage actually clarifies that it is not its own damage type. It states that while it's listed with the rest of the damage types, it is more precisely a 'category' of damage. If it was intended to be considered a damage type identical to, say, bashing or piercing, then that line would be completely unnecessary.
A good comparison would be the monster type to monster subtype.
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Maybe this link will help; you can't go too far wrong when Jason Bulmahn explains a rule...
Daniel, I think Akerlof pointed out the most important part of your quote and how it actually hurt your argument.
But I totally see how you got there. If you do rule it that way, I am curious about my question about using a magic weapon. Would you make the sneak attack magical, even though sneak attack by itself is not magical?
I think DM Blake's link really clears up the argument and ends debate. If you want to make precision damage, and thus sneak attack damage, something separate than the weapon or spell that delivers the damage, that becomes a houserule.
Daniel, I think Akerlof pointed out the most important part of your quote and how it actually hurt your argument.
But I totally see how you got there. If you do rule it that way, I am curious about my question about using a magic weapon. Would you make the sneak attack magical, even though sneak attack by itself is not magical?
In and of itself, I don't treat sneak attack as magical even with a particular weapon, I treat the SA as a class damage bonus granted by the class that grants it, and I simply house-rule that the sneak attack bypasses the DR of a creature that is SA'd by the attack unless said creature has DR/-.
In and of itself, I don't treat sneak attack as magical even with a particular weapon, I treat the SA as a class damage bonus granted by the class that grants it, and I simply house-rule that the sneak attack bypasses the DR of a creature that is SA'd by the attack unless said creature has DR/-.Daniel, I think Akerlof pointed out the most important part of your quote and how it actually hurt your argument.
But I totally see how you got there. If you do rule it that way, I am curious about my question about using a magic weapon. Would you make the sneak attack magical, even though sneak attack by itself is not magical?
Well you're firmly in house rule territory.
If you rule sneak attack is separate from weapon damage, then explain logically how you can justify allowing any sneak attack damage to occur if DR would reduce weapon damage to 0? Sneak attack is precision damage, made by placing the blade in just the right spot to cause extra damage. If the damage the weapon would do is completely negated and you treat sneak attack as separate but still precision damage, then how could sneak attack cause any damage? The answer is you don't, you total up damage from strength, power attack, weapon, and precision damage (and probably some other stuff) all as one total.
Now, you can house rule differently but to me it doesn't make any logical sense and deflates the power of DR when the DR would negate more damage than that caused by the weapon and strength and power attack, but don't allow it to roll over and apply to Sneak Attack damage as well.