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Ok, so I'm running Rise of the Runelords for some first-time Pathfinder characters and for the first time ever I've had to be that jerk-wad GM that nay-says something simply "just because." There's a wizard in the party that is focusing on item creation and at 5th level he took both Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms and Armor as his two feats. He says he plans to just keep making magic items so he can sell them for profit. I pointed out that he can only sell them for half the market value, which is exactly how much it costs to create one, resulting in a profit of nothing. He pointed out that he has a campaign trait that allows him to sell stuff at 10% higher the value it would normally sell for, meaning he'd earn 10% of his crafting in profit.
At this point I took him aside and revealed a bit "behind the curtain" so to speak, explaining what the Wealth By Level guidelines were. He didn't seem convinced. I'm trying to be a fair GM, but this guy plays this game like its a videogame, asking why when they have a day or two of downtime, why he can't go out in the wilderness to kill boars all day long to earn what he non-ironically calls "some phat XP-age."
Could I have handled this better? Has anybody run into this before? Any advice?
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Kill it kill it with fire?
I'd suggest new friends? Perhaps move?
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Have you started using the downtime rules in Ultimate Campaign yet? They might help pull things back into balance. He can choose to spend his downtime crafting, but then his misses out on other things. The rules also let him "boar hunt" for XP, but ensure that things don't get overbalanced.
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Imo a mere 10% of gp is a fair enough reward for the amount of in game time spent working on these items and the sacrifice of feats, but his behavior is problematic for other reasons clearly.
I would have explained that, REALISTICALLY going out and snuffing a bunch of animals wont equate to combat experience for a seasoned warrior, and you could very easilly offend local hunters by slaughtering the game they live off of, or anger a dryad by wantonly killing animals with no ntention of eating them, etc.
Point being, the game abstractions of tabletop are supposed to be a way of representing the real world in simpler terms, not the videogames based off of them, wich are further removed from reality.
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Ban crafting? Also explain to him that the net value of 10% of said items isn't going to be much. Those feats are in place to save the party money. Not make money off them. Further, explain to him that killing things below his CR doesn't net him any xp. Why does he want to go out and get the 'xp-age'? Is it to level faster? Just tell him you'll tell tye group when to level and actually stick to it.
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Well first and foremost, you get to decide if there is someone interested in buying these things. After he sells one or two items, there might not be a market for magic items in a town like sandpoint for a while. You are well within your rights to say you go to the market, and no one wants your item. You cant sell it. If he just sells a couple, no big deal, he invested a trait and 2 feats, its ok for him to gain SOME gold ahead of 'wealth by level' in exchange for those. But it shouldnt be continuous. You have control over that. (PS tell him after he sells a couple items in town there might not be market anymore). Roll some dice behind a screen if you think he needs additional convincing then look solemnly at him and let him know no one is interested today because they bought that stuff you made last week.
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@ The Diplomat
Yeah, I browsed over Ultimate Campaign but haven't really shoved my nose in it completely. Had thought about those rules and was going to make it a point to go back in.
@ Madclaw
I told him about how it won't be much. Also, killing boars would still be within the realm of him earning XP, as he's only level 5. The rules for awarding XP say PCs shouldn't earn experience for overcoming challenges with a CR less than 10 below the party's APL, so boars still qualify. He wants more XP because he's all about power-leveling in videogames, and wants to be as powerful as possible. It's the only reason why he chose wizard, after he spent a day on the forums and found out full-casters are the way to turn the game into easy mode (although it was a 3.5 forum, but yeah). We're on the fast xp track, as the AP suggests, and I'm good about handing out Xp at the end of sessions.
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@ Kolokotroni
Yeah I thought about that. I feared though he's "read between the lines" and just think I'm arbitrarily nerfing him. I could, though, have it cause problems for the other players, as he takes business away from other merchants in town, resulting in a black mark on the party whenever they attempt to deal with venders. This could extend to a general feeling of maliciousness from other citizens, as bad rumors spread
Have you tried telling him "This isn't the game I want to play" and offering a free rebuild? Rather than go through measures in game, sometimes its better to talk about things out of game. Offering a rebuild makes him feel like he didn't waste his time on a character.
Another thing is telling him he'd have to go out and solo the boars turn by turn and hunt them with skill checks, but that doesn't really hit the point so much as punish.
Yup, this is a problem that the rules seem to have forseen. When you take into account crafting times and look at Settlement Statistics, you can limit how much money can be made from magic items without flat-out saying "no" to the character. I mean, time he's spent crafting for profit is time taken out of crafting for the party, so it actually might be more balanced from a WBL perspective than half-price Wondrous Items for everybody. To serve any kind of market, he'll have to churn out low-level, easily crafted items, like a Cloak of Resistance +1 or something. After all, there aren't THAT many high-level adventurers running around, and there's a good chance that many of them have access to their own crafting feats. You can probably work it out so that he won't make substantially more money with crafting then he would with just a Profession roll, if you'd like.
Heck, make a plot hook out of it! The fat-cat owners of Wal-Magic, Inc. aren't happy that this guy is heavily low-balling them and send some burly dudes to break his fingers.
And if he wants to go into the woods and fight things for XP he's welcome to. Like a videogame, PF has random encounter tables too. "And, while hunting for boars, you find... *rolls dice*... four shambling mounds! Roll initiative! Too bad you couldn't convince the others to come along!"
If he won't be reasonable, follow his approach to it's logical conclusion.
I suggest against responding to immaturity with immaturity.
I should point out that the reason for selecting "boar" as his go-to kill fodder is from that WoW episode of Southpark. This makes it all the more hilarious for me since the guy actually comes off as Eric Cartman
My gosh... My laughter... makes it hard to type. Remember, make love. Not Warcraft.
On a more serious note, you could do away with XP entirely. I'm in two separate groups that don't use em. After 5-6 sessions, the GM just tells us to level up for next time doesn't bother to award xp for every challenge surmounted. This would put the kibosh on "power levelling" schemes and take the focus away from combat as a means of character advancement.
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If he won't be reasonable, follow his approach to it's logical conclusion.I suggest against responding to immaturity with immaturity.
I should point out that the reason for selecting "boar" as his go-to kill fodder is from that WoW episode of Southpark. This makes it all the more hilarious for me since the guy actually comes off as Eric CartmanMy gosh... My laughter... makes it hard to type. Remember, make love. Not Warcraft.
Who says he is being immature. He is looking to play a solo game, the game has built in consequences for spliting the party.
It isn't being cruel or immature. It's letting actions have consequences.
That is how you learn.
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On a more serious note, you could do away with XP entirely. I'm in two separate groups that don't use em. After 5-6 sessions, the GM just tells us to level up for next time doesn't bother to award xp for every challenge surmounted. This would put the kibosh on "power levelling" schemes and take the focus away from combat as a means of character advancement.
Also especially for a adventure path, there are listed places where the character are 'supposed' to level up. I just level my party there without having to juggle xp totals when using published adventures.
That is how you learn.
I disagree. It could be taken as being a jerk and lose you a friend. Bad karma. I think its best to handle out of game problems out of game. Best not chase the discussion though.
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If I recall correctly, that trait with the 10% value is dependent upon Ameiko. Who lives in Sandpoint. Which has wealth limit as a small town of what- all the merchants in the entire town put together could scrape up 5000 gp?
Plus, market forces. "Well that's an amazing set of +1 plate mail. I'll never be able to sell it, though. Maybe you should try Magnimar?"
Well first and foremost, you get to decide if there is someone interested in buying these things. After he sells one or two items, there might not be a market for magic items in a town like sandpoint for a while. You are well within your rights to say you go to the market, and no one wants your item. You cant sell it. If he just sells a couple, no big deal, he invested a trait and 2 feats, its ok for him to gain SOME gold ahead of 'wealth by level' in exchange for those. But it shouldnt be continuous. You have control over that. (PS tell him after he sells a couple items in town there might not be market anymore). Roll some dice behind a screen if you think he needs additional convincing then look solemnly at him and let him know no one is interested today because they bought that stuff you made last week.
I agree with the advice above, and would expand on it a bit. The new rule in Ultimate Campaign re: crafting and WBL would seem to be relevant to this player's desires. It lacks an enforcement mechanism, so I came up with one for my game, but other GMs may have different approaches to that rule. But let's forget that rule for a minute. This guy wants his PC to make significant amounts of money in a very public way. That is to say, there isn't any way he can do this secretly. Has he put any thought into security measures? As he probably won't have or be able to afford the kind of security usually associated with wizard crafters for hire, at some point after he's gone public with this he's going to attract thieves. It is relatively difficult for a PC to design affordable security sufficient to keep out a rogue of equivalent level if all that rogue is after is portable wealth. Is this something he has even considered?
Out of curiosity, how much is he hoping to bend the wealth curve, anyway? And to what purpose? That is, what does he plan to DO with the extra wealth?
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If I recall correctly, that trait with the 10% value is dependent upon Ameiko. Who lives in Sandpoint. Which has wealth limit as a small town of what- all the merchants in the entire town put together could scrape up 5000 gp?
It's actually a different one, found in the RotRL:AE player's guide. The one about being part of a merchant family.
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Well first and foremost, you get to decide if there is someone interested in buying these things. After he sells one or two items, there might not be a market for magic items in a town like sandpoint for a while. You are well within your rights to say you go to the market, and no one wants your item. You cant sell it. If he just sells a couple, no big deal, he invested a trait and 2 feats, its ok for him to gain SOME gold ahead of 'wealth by level' in exchange for those. But it shouldnt be continuous. You have control over that. (PS tell him after he sells a couple items in town there might not be market anymore). Roll some dice behind a screen if you think he needs additional convincing then look solemnly at him and let him know no one is interested today because they bought that stuff you made last week.I agree with the advice above, and would expand on it a bit. The new rule in Ultimate Campaign re: crafting and WBL would seem to be relevant to this player's desires. It lacks an enforcement mechanism, so I came up with one for my game, but other GMs may have different approaches to that rule. But let's forget that rule for a minute. This guy wants his PC to make significant amounts of money in a very public way. That is to say, there isn't any way he can do this secretly. Has he put any thought into security measures? As he probably won't have or be able to afford the kind of security usually associated with wizard crafters for hire, at some point after he's gone public with this he's going to attract thieves. It is relatively difficult for a PC to design affordable security sufficient to keep out a rogue of equivalent level if all that rogue is after is portable wealth. Is this something he has even considered?
Out of curiosity, how much is he hoping to bend the wealth curve, anyway? And to what purpose? That is, what does he plan to DO with the extra wealth?
You know I have no idea what he plans to purchase. I think all he's concerned with is "money money money money money..." and until recently he didn't even know there was WBL guidelines.
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Well first and foremost, you get to decide if there is someone interested in buying these things. After he sells one or two items, there might not be a market for magic items in a town like sandpoint for a while. You are well within your rights to say you go to the market, and no one wants your item. You cant sell it. If he just sells a couple, no big deal, he invested a trait and 2 feats, its ok for him to gain SOME gold ahead of 'wealth by level' in exchange for those. But it shouldnt be continuous. You have control over that. (PS tell him after he sells a couple items in town there might not be market anymore). Roll some dice behind a screen if you think he needs additional convincing then look solemnly at him and let him know no one is interested today because they bought that stuff you made last week.I agree with the advice above, and would expand on it a bit. The new rule in Ultimate Campaign re: crafting and WBL would seem to be relevant to this player's desires. It lacks an enforcement mechanism, so I came up with one for my game, but other GMs may have different approaches to that rule. But let's forget that rule for a minute. This guy wants his PC to make significant amounts of money in a very public way. That is to say, there isn't any way he can do this secretly. Has he put any thought into security measures? As he probably won't have or be able to afford the kind of security usually associated with wizard crafters for hire, at some point after he's gone public with this he's going to attract thieves. It is relatively difficult for a PC to design affordable security sufficient to keep out a rogue of equivalent level if all that rogue is after is portable wealth. Is this something he has even considered?
Out of curiosity, how much is he hoping to bend the wealth curve, anyway? And to what purpose? That is, what does he plan to DO with the extra wealth?
Funny enough there's a Sczarni thieves guild located right in Sandpoint that would love to take this opportunity. Further after a couple break-ins they can offer security service, for the nomial fee equal to the 10% he plans on making.
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That is how you learn.I disagree. It could be taken as being a jerk and lose you a friend. Bad karma. I think its best to handle out of game problems out of game. Best not chase the discussion though.
If you do something dumb in the game, like wander off in the woods alone when you are a class that needs support, and nothing bad happens to you, that is how misconceptions about how the game works in general happen...
If you do something dumb in the game, like wander off in the woods alone when you are a class that needs support, and nothing bad happens to you, that is how misconceptions about how the game works in general happen...That is how you learn.I disagree. It could be taken as being a jerk and lose you a friend. Bad karma. I think its best to handle out of game problems out of game. Best not chase the discussion though.
My advice had nothing to do with 'misconceptions'. Its about fun and friendship.
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The player definately seems to be all about fun and friendship...
Unimportant. If someone's being a jerk you don't have a right to be a jerk back. It isn't likely to help the situation.
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The player definately seems to be all about fun and friendship...Unimportant. If someone's being a jerk you don't have a right to be a jerk back. It isn't likely to help the situation.
He isn't being a jerk. He wants to try and get gold and xp. Let him try. The woods are dark and dangerous, and adventurers are delicious.
Having the actual consequences of the risks the player is taking actually happen isn't being a jerk. It's the game.
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the wandering monster chart lists 1d6 boars, with a base 6% chance of encountering those specifically. six cr2 boars would be a bit much for one lv5 wizard, especially if they get surprise. plus they dont drop at 0hp, and keep attacking until -con. thats 35 damage to one-shot a boar, which is more than a fireball can dish out at 5d6.
so, if everything goes right? wizard gets initiative, drops a 5d6 AOE on the boars for an average of 17 damage(save for half). then the six boars rip him apart.
Yup. Which is fine. Let the players decide what they want to do and let the dice fall where they fall.
Beyond a sly smile and an "Are you sure" the GM shouldn't stop the players from being dumb if they want to be dumb. Hell, he might win and actually earn the XP.
The player definately seems to be all about fun and friendship...Unimportant. If someone's being a jerk you don't have a right to be a jerk back. It isn't likely to help the situation.He isn't being a jerk. He wants to try and get gold and xp. Let him try. The woods are dark and dangerous, and adventurers are delicious.
Having the actual consequences of the risks the player is taking actually happen isn't being a jerk. It's the game.
Well that just went in a circle. I didn't say anything about consequences or say consequences are bad. I made a statement about doing something that would help keep a friend. Edit: your statement also changed subject.
Huh...I thought it was gaming. My friends must all be jerks...
I didn't say not to play the game as written. I just said to talk about things out of game instead of resolving them ingame. You just want to argue with me I think.
Just ask him if he really wants to be the most boring person in the group.
When I first read the thread title I thought it was going to be about an actual old-school munchkin who loves to play in the loopholes and grey areas of the game, but this is in no way a munchkin to me.
This is just a guy who doesn't understand the rules, he's new to the game and is used to the video games out there ala WoW.
You need to sit down and explain things to him a bit better and show him exactly how much time he has to craft between adventuring, resting, and studying his spellbook. Are there ways to craft more quickly and do so while adventuring? Sure, but a mastery of the rules is what it takes to get that figured out or asking the theory-crafters around here.
He really won't make that much gold if he is trying to craft all the time and he won't be able to craft if he can't gain enough experience to learn the new spells. I also like the idea that he'd run into random monsters if he is out trying to kill boars all day long. This campaign isn't just about him (unless it is a solo campaign I guess), so he needs to craft in his own downtime and focus on the adventure rather than the wealth. Wealth will come to him as he adventures.
On a more serious note, you could do away with XP entirely. I'm in two separate groups that don't use em. After 5-6 sessions, the GM just tells us to level up for next time doesn't bother to award xp for every challenge surmounted. This would put the kibosh on "power levelling" schemes and take the focus away from combat as a means of character advancement.
Yes, this is a great idea. It's what we do.
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He isn't being a jerk. He wants to try and get gold and xp. Let him try. The woods are dark and dangerous, and adventurers are delicious.
No, that's absolutely the wrong way to handle this sort of guy. The right way is "You encounter nothing." meanwhile have a cool encounter for the rest of the party. Wash, rinse, repeat.
As satisfying as death by boar would be, its a lose lose plan. Either he dies, and you ruin a friend's fun, or he wins and now everyone wants to grind.
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I agree with Kolokotroni and ciretose. Bring a bit of realism into the campaign by showing that (1) it takes a lot of in-game time to carefully craft these magic items and (2) there isn't a huge market for these items. I mean, besides perhaps some minor potions, very few people can afford to purchase these items. Being able to create your own rod of rulership is great, but who besides a monarch or the wealthiest merchant could possibly afford one? That thing is going to spend a long, long time gathering dust in a display case waiting to be purchased...or stolen by the local Sczarni.
Or, here's an idea: you could let him be the crafter he wants to be and let him sell magic items for profit, be he must be commissioned to do so. For example, as the party gets more powerful, word spreads along the Lost Coast that there is a powerful wizard who can create magical items. After he becomes more known, the PC starts getting requests from powerful magic merchants in Magnimar, Korvosa and Riddleport (and perhaps even Kaer Maga) for magic item creation.
However, these requests don't happen continuously...only occasionally, and at the GMs discretion. However, he cannot craft just anything and hope that the merchants will buy it. After all, the merchants know their clients and their needs, and will let the wizard PC know what they specifically want. Therefore, you would be allowing him to create magic items for money, but also keep him in the Wealth By Level parameters. Just a thought.