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There are very few sling-specific feats and a couple of the ranged attack feats specifically exclude them. There are also no archetypes for them, no PrCs for slingers and few builds I can find on the boards for them. Yet as a thought experiment I compared a 1st level Halfling using bows and slings and really there's no great advantage for the little fellow. As such, long term, wouldn't it make more sense for all martial Halflings to abandon their racial heritage weapon of Sling-Staff for composite bows if they're ranged attackers? Why is there NO love for slings in PF?
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You're using a jockstrap to throw rocks. I'm not sure how much support that needs.
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Free ammo and I'm pretty sure the sling is free too.
Magic bullet cleric?
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With the exception of David, I can think of no great and well known users of the sling. This is probably part of it. In real life, the sling was used for hunting small game and as a military weapon by the Greeks, Romans, and Aztecs. Pathfinder seems be be set in a world that has advanced beyond the sling, with the bow and crossbow. Having played with one a bit, I would say that beyond twenty feet or so (the range at one might startle a rabbit or a bird) it would be difficult to hit a target. As such, it is best suited toward volley style shooting.
That being said, a halfling can get quite a bit of use out of the sling if they take the right feats. They would not get multi shot, but crossbows and guns also do not.
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You're using a jockstrap to throw rocks. I'm not sure how much support that needs.
Slings are more sword and sandal (classical) than sword and sorcery (fantasy), but there is plenty of interesting design space for sling feats; they just don't fit into most people's fantasy worldviews.
Oh, and the only work of fiction that I can think of off the top of my head that uses slings is The Wheel of Time. And there, it is mainly used for killing rabbits, not trollocs.
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Oh, and the only work of fiction that I can think of off the top of my head that uses slings is The Wheel of Time. And there, it is mainly used for killing rabbits, not trollocs.
David and Goliath, Greek history, some Greek myths.
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Yeah, the ranged weapon of choice for murdering poor bastards is the Two Rivers Longbow in the Wheel of Time too.
The Longbow in fiction is usually the biggest, baddest non-magical ranged attack around, and PF is no exception.
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In real life, Slings are extremely deadly, highly accurate, and very long range.
However, just as Crossbows replaced bows because they were easier to use, bows replaced slings for the same reason.
Slings are extremely difficult to use correctly and effectively. Bows, which are not exactly easy themselves, feel like point and click by comparison.
D&D, however, from the beginning, has discounted them and romanticized the bow. It's odd to me that they were able to recognize that bows were better than crossbows but not that slings were better than bows.
I'm guessing it's because they misunderstood the story of David and Goliath.
Anyway, yeah, in Pathfinder, they are frustratingly not good weapons. I wish they were better. Oh well.
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I have always liked slings as the ranged option for my fighters, easy to conceal, alot easier to carry then a bow especially for someone who doesnt anticipate using ranged weaponry, Sling and a few bullets can all fit in a single pouch! decent ranged increment, decent damage type, just a good option for the melee specialist in my opinion.
If interested in slings this guy has a few videos on them that are pretty informative on there general effectiveness and use in the olden days.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=covH4voKukw
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Unrelated to the actual topic, did anyone else find themselves forced to hear the title of this thread in Jerry Seinfeld's voice?
My low level monks that aren't Zen Archers usually carry a sling, it seems to fit.
Unrelated to the actual topic, did anyone else find themselves forced to hear the title of this thread in Jerry Seinfeld's voice?
Yes.
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The sling is a really nice backup for all those two handed high strength melee types, at least until you can afford a mighty bow. I'd rather do 1d4+4 than 1d8 any day, and the sling is free.
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The game is designed so that bows are the only decent option for ranged combat. Every other ranged weapons sucks.
Well, almost... Firearms are pretty good if you're a Gunslinger or Trench Fighter (but they suck even more than crossbows for everyone else).
Crossbows? Sorry, they suck. Firearms... Are you a Gunslinger? No? Sorry, they suck. Slings... Sorry they suck. Thrown weapon... Hah! They make crossbows look good!
I'm beginning to realize how limited are the options for martial characters. It's either 2-Handed , Archery, TWF (with 2 light weapons) or Sword & Board. With great effort, you can push "Combat Maneuvers" here too, but only at low/mid levels and against humanoids.
All other options are either illegal or so ineffective that they might as well be illegal...
Why? I have no idea, but I'm guessing it's because otherwise, it'd not fit "standard" fantasy.
/rant
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You're using a jockstrap to throw rocks. I'm not sure how much support that needs.
Depends on how big your rocks are I guess!
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I have been asking a similar question myself about why swords tend to be the 'iconic' weapon weapon of our society, while spears are almost entirely ignored. I mean, in real life, reach is a huge advantage and a decent spear wielder can put a swordwielder down reliably.
But the key thing about them is this: Spears are common. One of the most common weapons in the world prior to the large scale introduction of effective guns. They are easy to produce, and you can train someone to work with them in a short period of time. In comparison, swords require a lot of skill (and thus money) to produce, and they take just as much training to use with any noticeable degree of effectiveness. Who are the only ones able to afford such a system?
So, you now get to the root of why slings and spears fall to the wayside. This largely has to deal with class issues. The more common and cost effective a device, the less the mystique surrounding it. The story of David and Goliath is played out as "poor weak farmer with his cheap sling overcoming the mighty warrior decked out in expensive gear" when it is more about "sound tactics of using effective ranged weapons against better armed opponents." It took a very long time before anyone ever began to support the nobility of the working class. Even then, the trappings of their rank are typically viewed with disdain despite highsounding ideals.
The range for a sling is comparable to a shortbow. Bullets are cheaper and you automatically add your Strength bonus to damage without having to pay additional gold. At low levels, sling is a decent backup weapon for a high strength character who is not really interested in ranged combat. That said, it quickly loses its appeal once you start factoring in multiple attacks (rapid shot, haste, BAB +6) given it requires a move action to reload.
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Swords are nice, but the only time Miyamoto Musashi was defeated was by a guy with a Jo (short staff).
One of the things I don't like about Pathfinder is that the game designers have absolutely NO interest in _the rule of cool_. They want bows to be the best ranged weapon, they want magic to trump martial, etc. and stamp a waxy seal of designer fiat on top of it.
And since they're the biggest d20 game in town, you take the bad with the good.
If you think throwing a rock from a leather cup is cooler than shooting an arrow at someone, and you think that swinging a sword at someone is cooler than altering the fabric of reality and calling magic down to smite them, then you have a way different definition of "cool" than I do.
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One thing to remember is slings are simple weapons, which means almost everyone can use them, while bows are martial weapons.And in pathfinder Simple weapon are supposed to be inferior to martial weapons which are inferior to exotic weapons( Not always true I know)
In reality as some people as said the sling was a difficult weapon to master and should be an exotic weapon and a boost in its power.
Might point out during WWII, the Finns, who still use the sling for hunting, used slings to toss hand grenades and Molotov cocktails.
And for those who want to add more variety , The Romans used slighstone of heated clay to start fires, while the Persian where known to coat their sling bullet in pitch and light them before they where tossed.
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It's a legacy thing- slings and bows have always been rated in D&D as far less effective than they were in real life.
And as far as fantasy use goes, maybe people forget their use in an obscure little fantasy series called Lord of the Rings?
Many have said Alchemy is the answer. This led me to 2 thoughts:
1. Besides a couple core devices, there's no RAW alchemy I can load a sling with
2. There's a PrC (Arcane Archer) where I can add magic to my shots, but one of the Requirements is Weapon Focus with a bow
Now I suppose I could go ranged Magus, but I'm still faced with the inferiority in damage and feat options to enhance my use of this weapon. I hear you all that some weapons are just made inferior by this game system, and that's fine. I'm just wondering one last thing: if there's a race (Halflings) who by RAW have made slings their signature weapon, why is there then no Racial PrC for the use of this weapon?
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In terms of actual tricks you can do with it, there was a nasty halfling rogue build floating around using a sling, the feat that doubles non-lethal sneak attack, and some archetype or another to be able to deal insane amounts of damage (at least insane for a rogue) in a single first-round attack. Of course after that it was pretty useless but it was a cool trick.
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I hit myself in the head using a sock-sling. Try shooting yourself in the head with a crossbow.
In real life, Slings are extremely deadly, highly accurate, and very long range.
However, just as Crossbows replaced bows because they were easier to use, bows replaced slings for the same reason.
Slings are extremely difficult to use correctly and effectively. Bows, which are not exactly easy themselves, feel like point and click by comparison.
D&D, however, from the beginning, has discounted them and romanticized the bow. It's odd to me that they were able to recognize that bows were better than crossbows but not that slings were better than bows.
I'm guessing it's because they misunderstood the story of David and Goliath.
Anyway, yeah, in Pathfinder, they are frustratingly not good weapons. I wish they were better. Oh well.
Slings were better than bows? Do slings really have effective ranges over 100 feet? I'm very surprised at that but as I have no knowledge of slings beyond 'David slew Goliath with one' I really don't know.
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The biggest limitation on the sling (or halfling sling staff) is the move action reload. Other than the Warslinger alternate halfling racial trait (and the Rapid Shot feat with an already loaded sling), I don't know of any other way to get additional attacks with a sling. The recent FAQ on the Warslinger trait prevents the halfling sling staff from getting additional attacks at all (other than Rapid Shot).
As it stands, the only decent sling user is a halfing cleric with the Warslinger alternate racial trait and magic stone. IMO, simply allowing the Rapid Reload feat to be taken with slings or sling staffs would be sufficient; it would at least put the sling on par with crossbows and javelins (or other thrown weapons using Quick Draw).
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@ D-Playah: but there's the rub eh? I suppose I could work with my GM and HOUSERULE the following:
1. Extra alchemical ammo
2. Crossbow or even Bow feats (if she's nice)
3. PrC: Arcane Archer to work with slings
But at the end of the day there's nothing RAW I can do reliably. I think that's how it's going to have to be.
Halflings have a racial bonus to Charisma; this seems to suggest a fair amount of Bards and Sorcerers among them. They also have a natural inclination with slings. This would lead me to believe that there's Arcane Snipers out there (re-flavored Arcane Archer).
These Halflings need the Warslinger trait for rapid loading of their weapons. They also require precision and focus (Precise Shot, Weapon Focus: Sling). They'll never do a ton of damage but they can add spells to their shots to deliver special effects with sometimes devastating effect.
But note that slings are quite good weapons at very low levels, especially for characters that do not have martial weapons but do have decent strength scores (combat clerics or druids for example); basically, they lose one damage to a javelin but have the benefit of weight compared to a pack of javelins and having by far superior range.
@ Ilja: I'm not arguing their potential at low level. Levels 1-4, and perhaps further if it's a high-intrigue game, the sling is a contender with crossbows at least. But once PrCs and advanced weapon specialization comes into play, slings start to lag and by double-digit levels they are little more than a backup, forgotten and rotting in your pocket.
My concerns all revolve around building a viable, sling-focused character for the long-haul. After 6th level a Halfling fighter is relegated to cute tricks, Vital Strike, or Rapid Shot and will rarely if ever do as much damage as a bow-wielder of the same race and level. The tricks they CAN do with the sling depend on enemies being larger, CMB/CMD, and low-save alchemical items.
Why would an 11th level Halfling fighter EVER pull and use a sling?
Agreed. :)
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Slings were better than bows? Do slings really have effective ranges over 100 feet? I'm very surprised at that but as I have no knowledge of slings beyond 'David slew Goliath with one' I really don't know.In real life, Slings are extremely deadly, highly accurate, and very long range.
However, just as Crossbows replaced bows because they were easier to use, bows replaced slings for the same reason.
Slings are extremely difficult to use correctly and effectively. Bows, which are not exactly easy themselves, feel like point and click by comparison.
D&D, however, from the beginning, has discounted them and romanticized the bow. It's odd to me that they were able to recognize that bows were better than crossbows but not that slings were better than bows.
I'm guessing it's because they misunderstood the story of David and Goliath.
Anyway, yeah, in Pathfinder, they are frustratingly not good weapons. I wish they were better. Oh well.
In Real life, you can be your life on it.
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Well yeah slings vs bows in real life depends on a lot of factors. They both have benefits and drawbacks, and it depends a whole lot on what type of bow. It also depends on how one fights, the amount of training etc.
- A bow is generally far easier to use than a sling. Take a peasant and give them a month of training with a bow vs a month of training with a sling and the bow will clearly win out. Of course, a crossbow would take like one day of training...
- Bows are better in tight formations, slings require lots of space to use.
- Slings are easy to make and carry; each slinger can carry a whole bunch if one breaks. They can also be used with all kinds of ammunition; while there were sling bullets in some circumstances, you could throw really anything.
- Slings are much less affected by weather; if it's a strong wind, arrows get sidetracked or lose too much velocity, sling bullets are not nearly as affected. So if it's a storm and one side has slings and the other has bows, the slingers will probably win out. Not to talk about the long-term effects of weather on bowstrings.
- Slings are easy to hide and would therefore be very useful if you do not want to appear as though you have a weapon.
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why does only one answer to the question 'what is cool?' have to be right?
If you think throwing a rock from a leather cup is cooler than shooting an arrow at someone, and you think that swinging a sword at someone is cooler than altering the fabric of reality and calling magic down to smite them, then you have a way different definition of "cool" than I do.
Why does the only answer to "what is cool" have to be the PC that wins at DPR? CB are a perfectly OK weapon in D&D, I have run a CB expert and since he doesn't require a high str he works very well. Yes, a LB would beat him out in DPR but he's cool, and fun to play.
I don't get this idea that is someones theorycrafted PC can beat my fun to play PC by 5% DPR @ 20% level, suddenly the rules are "teh BROKEN "and there's only one way to play everything else is badwrongfun. Esp as almost no PF games are ever played at that level.
Heck, the CB vs LB disparity not only is there for game balance, it's solidly grounded in medieval realism.
Same with the sling, which dropped out of warfare use before the medieval period.
Oh, and a halfing can still be fairly dangerous with a sling.
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Slings were better than bows? Do slings really have effective ranges over 100 feet? I'm very surprised at that but as I have no knowledge of slings beyond 'David slew Goliath with one' I really don't know.
There are good things and bad things about both.
We have reports from the Romans and other cultures that slings regularly outdistanced bows. Sling stones are significantly less affected by weather and wind, too, so their effective range is even that much farther.
The ammunition is much smaller, too, so you absolutely can't see the projectile in flight from any distance, so you can't dodge it. There's also no obvious "tell" as far as where the slinger is aiming is concerned--he's not pointing the tip of the weapon at you, for example, so it's harder to "dodge his aim," too.
Slings and bows are both dangerous on a hit, but slings actually don't care a whole lot about the armor you're wearing, where as a bow needs to hit dead on to penetrate chain or plate. A sling will kill you and break bones right through plate. And on the topic of mortality, a slinger is a lot more protected, too, because they can load and wield a sling while wearing a shield.
It's up in the air as to which kind of weapon is more accurate. I've heard people argue that modern archery competitions have smaller targets than modern sling competitions, but the fact is, modern archers spent tremendous amounts of money on their bows and arrows and training and spend very long times (in battlefield terms at least) aiming and lining up their shots through special scopes and crap like that. Even in serious sling competitions, there's no slings worth thousands of dollars, no stones that cost more than my phone, and no way to add a scope. Ultimately, I'd wager they're probably about equally accurate.
The one advantage (other than ease of use) a bow has over a sling (and it's the same advantage it has over a crossbow) is rate of fire. Now, even with the foolish, modern method that most archers use to load and fire their bow (reach and pull, one at a time, from a quiver or the ground, load, aim, and fire), just about any archer can put more arrows in the air in the same time frame than the best slinger can put stones in the air.
When you actually use the numbers we have from the ancient world on rates of fire, though, and see this guy, who may have figured out how they did it, in action, it's not even close. Archers like that could fire so witheringly fast, it boggles the mind.
I have no doubt ancient slingers could load stones faster than we can, but there's no possible method to compete with that.
So, in my opinion, single sling stone > single arrow. All the stones you could sling in a minute < all the arrows you could shoot in a minute.
The problem is that, because of the way Hit Points and damage bonuses work in Pathfinder, deadly, one shot kill weapons don't really work, so rate of fire is vastly more important than almost any other consideration.
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As far as alchemical bullets go. Allowing a gunslingers musket ball to be hurled from a sling should be a fairly easy house rule as Musket balls are in fact a little lighter then sling stones. A cartridge for later guns might be a problem though.
Another house rule , and one that is historically accurate, would be to allow slingers to use larger size ammo at a reduced range( say -10 per size difference), instead of the usual -2 to hit . Many slinger would start off by using smaller sling bullets at long range and then switch to larger ones as the target got closer.. Some sling stones found in Spain weigh over a pound and I dont think I would want to get hit by one that size. The Balearic slingers, consider the best in the Ancient world, carried three different size sling, which they wore like headbands when not in use, and used sling stones from 2 oz, to the up to one pound.
It was said Rome did not pay the Balearic slings in silver but in wine and women.