Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I get kind of annoyed when I get a faction mission that basically boils down to "go frame X by killing as many people as you can and then burn down the town." Even if I can do it with out a shift in alignment, it requires me to suspend my disbelief, because I can't understand why my character would ever follow that order. At the same time, I don't want to be penalized (by having to give up prestige points.) At the moment, I have one last chance (up till tuesday evening when the next game is) to change my faction at no cost. So I'm wondering which faction has the fewest evil faction missions.
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Silver Crusade!
Pah those pansies will have you befriending Goblins
All factions have their rare kill this guy moments. Some will have you believe the old Shadow Lodge missions consisted only of kill this one orders. Truth is very few such requests are made.
As I understand it Andorans are quick to resort if they are not for us kill them sugestions where as the 'Evil' Chelaxians are more wont to operate within the law and Thou shall do no Murder is a very common law
Of course just because your favoured faction asks you to do something does not mean you have to attempt it
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Yes, I know I don't have to do all the missions, but I'd rather not have to chose between losing prestige points and committing evil acts.
I think it is odd that the "consorts with devils" faction is the one that is not giving out evil faction missions.
I don't actually have a problem with "go steal this" missions, and I don't have a problem with "this guy is evil and needs to be removed" missions. But so far my missions have been:
Torture smugglers for profit (evil act)
Frame faction by planting documents, then cause as much death and destruction as possible (really evil act)
Bring back item X after you deal with mass murdering pirate who killed his own crew (fine with that one actually)
Sounds like silver crusade. Only reason I didn't go with them from the start is that I thought given the paladin founder they would object to a slightly chaotic gnome bard prankster. But it sounds like I should just shift to chaotic good and go with them. (Previously true nuetral, of the interpretation of "to lazy to do good without being paid, but draws the line at doing evil to get rich")
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Here's what I've learned in my time among you humans.
In general, punching people is bad. But punching your sibling is just a thing that happens. Stealing is bad, but stealing your sibling's diary and reading their deepest, darkest secret is just a thing that happens. Marriage is good, but marrying your sibling is bad?
Apparently, when you're dealing with family, it's like opposite day every day.
For the Sczarni, everyone is family.
Therefore, least evil family-- I mean, faction-- is the Sczarni. Hands down. It's LOGIC.
Venture-Captain, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia
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Silver Crusade is certainly supposed to be the least evil. Most of their missions end up serving the greater evil, though, and I'm convinced that faction will eventually be revealed to have been a ruse intended to fell all the Pathfinder Society's paladins.
They have been collecting an awful lot of evil artifacts for "safe keeping."
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None of the country based factions work for the greater good. Their primary concern is the nation they represent. That means you will be asked to do all sorts of ethically questionable things that support that nation.
The Silver Crusade is the top good guy faction. Followed by the (In my opinion) the Grand Lodge. The Grand Lodge has the goal of the Pathfinders in mind. They seek out knowledge and strive to keep the Pathfinders strong. So there you go.
Silver Crusade is certainly supposed to be the least evil. Most of their missions end up serving the greater evil, though, and I'm convinced that faction will eventually be revealed to have been a ruse intended to fell all the Pathfinder Society's paladins.
Well, from what I've seen they've most given me generic missions about doing good or making sure people live through the ordeals of the world(which actually matches up with their faction goal doesn't it?) I haven't had as much trouble with them as I have with doing the Andoran missions in older scenarios for them. I haven't played the most recently scenarios though. Was there a change in behavior that deserves a spoiler or did I somehow miss something obvious?
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The problem with picking Silver Crusade is that in the older scenarios, you will get Andoran missions, which means dirty dealings at times. I picked Andoran my first night at a table, knowing almost NOTHING of PFS. Some of the things that character has had to do have bothered me, since he is part of the faction because they freed him from slavery. I don't think I will ever play my Silver Crusade character in a scenario where I don't get to actually do a Silver Crusade mission, I just can't fathom it. Especially since he is an EXTREME LG character. Ironically, my Paladin is Taldan, and I'm sure that is going to cost me from time to time. Oh well.
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I think this is overstated a little, I played an Andoran through to Seeker level, and only had one murder mission, I may have doged a few, but I'm not sure there are that many.The trouble with the Silver Crusade is that in older scenarios you play Andoran, and they like to send you off to kill people with no explanation.
Actually that's the trouble with all the new factions.
I agree FB, there are maybe 3 or so missions that actually ask you to bring to justice or off slavers or enemies of Andoran.
Nathan Meyers
NYC PFS GM/Player
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Throw might vote to Silver Crusade, with Grand Lodge second. I think just about every faction has had a "kill someone" mission. I've seen one in Osirion (and it's some random guy, not one of the villains in the scenario). I've seen a Cheliax mission where you're not told to kill someone, exactly, but to help in the disposal of his body, which kind of implies a little murder.
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None of the country based factions work for the greater good. Their primary concern is the nation they represent. That means you will be asked to do all sorts of ethically questionable things that support that nation.
The Silver Crusade is the top good guy faction. Followed by the (In my opinion) the Grand Lodge. The Grand Lodge has the goal of the Pathfinders in mind. They seek out knowledge and strive to keep the Pathfinders strong. So there you go.
Actually, I was annoyed that the Shadow Lodge became one of the lost factions because the ethos of 'making sure you and your fellow pathfinders didn't get screwed by the man', the man being the Decenvirite.
Bluntly, after playing Eyes of the Ten where
Still, my Shadow Lodge character joined the Grand Lodge because, bluntly, we still need to watch those SOBs.
Basically, if I were come out with list in order of of the current 10, I'd rank them Silver Crusade, Andoran, Shadow Lodge, Lantern Lodge, Osirian, Taldor, Qadira, Scarni, Grand Lodge, Cheliax.
But the Grand Lodge is not the friend of your common pathfinder.
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Silver Crusade is only nominally good. I have seen one scenario where their faction mission (and my Andoran PC watched in wonder at this) was to try to sneak around and steal someone's ledger.
Silver Crusade? Sneak and steal?
And, yes, my Andoran PC did not have the same faction mission, this was a Season 3 or 4 scenario.
Thank you, but I will stay with Andoran fo rmost of my PCs. Oh, and the few "Kill this person" missions from Andoran all explained the person was evil, and research during the scenarios invariably showed that the Andoran mission briefing was correct about the target.
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Basically, if I were come out with list in order of of the current 10, I'd rank them Silver Crusade, Andoran, Shadow Lodge, Lantern Lodge, Osirian, Taldor, Qadira, Scarni, Grand Lodge, Cheliax.
I'm curious about this; what evil things have you had to do as Lantern Lodge that gets them listed below three other factions, including the Shadow Lodge? I like the Shadow Lodge, mind you, but I've seen some of their faction missions; a couple of them frankly creep me out. I've (thankfully) yet to have to do anything I find the least bit objectionable as a Lantern Lodge character.
That, by the way, is why I'm so utterly unhappy that they're going away in a couple of days. :(
- Cheers, Key
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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One mission was to free a boy from slavery. So what does the Andoran player do? He sneaks up on the guy and knifes him from behind...
I read that, and I thought you meant he snuck up behind the *slave* and knifed the slave in the back. Which, technically, would "free" him from slavery, but would also seem a bit extreme.
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Here's what I've learned in my time among you humans.
In general, punching people is bad. But punching your sibling is just a thing that happens. Stealing is bad, but stealing your sibling's diary and reading their deepest, darkest secret is just a thing that happens. Marriage is good, but marrying your sibling is bad?
Apparently, when you're dealing with family, it's like opposite day every day.
For the Sczarni, everyone is family.
Therefore, least evil family-- I mean, faction-- is the Sczarni. Hands down. It's LOGIC.
Yeah......
The faction that has a
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Actually it's not true that Andoran missons are all of the "kill this guy". It's just that Andoran Players tend to think of murder as a first and only option in quite a few missions that could have been acheived without violent means.
One mission was to free a boy from slavery. So what does the Andoran player do? He sneaks up on the guy and knifes him from behind... no interaction, just out and out murder. He could have negotiated.. he could have BOUGHT the slave. (and it wouldn't have been expensive), but no... Andoran players seem to have the mentality that they have a license and mandate to kill.
That's ... err... a bit of a generalisation, don't you think?
Stealing isn't evil, but it is chaotic.
Unless you steal it with paperwork. Piles and piles of bureaucratic paperwork.
Anyways, the factions tend to act out of character now and then don't they?
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So I'm wondering which faction has the fewest evil faction missions.
Grand Lodge tend to have missions that are basically the main scenario mission plus - and occasionally they have as mission help other people make their faction mission.
Though what happens with those type of mission for an all Grand Lodge party, I have no idea.
Silver Crusade sometimes gets contrary missions - I can think of one that told you to avoid doing something, but to succeed at the mod it required you to do the same thing (and you could succeed at both - in different encounters, but the players didn't know it was encounter specific).
Sczarni may be self-serving criminals, but at least they're up front about it so you don't join with some different intention and then wind up blindsided and disillusioned.
So, what factions aren't honest? From a meta standpoint not being honest about what faction missions you'll end up with is pretty awful.
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I think the majority of people's definition of “good” and “evil” is typically amazingly Christian in their foundation. If you read enough of the pathfinder material and Pathfinder tales the lines of "good/evil" are pretty blurry with only definitive evil or good things really standing out. Even if you look at some of the definitions of alignments and read some of the NPC backgrounds it gives you the impression that there are tons of ways to role play each alignment.
A lot of table top, especially D&D/Pathfinder is dungeon crawl orientated. This is IMO cause by two things. First, there are more rules for dungeon crawling/combat/whatever because those are the rule heavy area. Second, because people are amazingly uncreative and unimaginative when it comes to things outside of combat or going down a corridor to the next monster/trap/treasure.
Want a perfect example watch the way a lot of people handle Charisma/social based checks. "I roll a gather information check in the tavern. What do I learn?" or "I roll diplomacy to try to convince him to give me a discount on this magic item, I get a 18". Instead of I tell him that "I need the flaming sword in order to defeat the troll that has been attacking the town. Unfortunately I am unable to pay full price for the sword but being a living merchant allows you to make up the loss of profit with future sales while a troll attack could lead to either a lack of life or a lack of customer base to sell to because other people will be dying and hence unable to buy the product” then “do you need me to roll diplomacy to see if that worked?"
Faction missions are great. The premise is that you are a pathfinder which stands for certain things (with all pathfinders stand for, or else you wouldn’t be a pathfinder), however, the factions allow you to get some extra perks at the risk of doing some things that would be unsavory or against a character's own personal code. I look at it in some ways as a more mature and real life component to the game as a normal person probably isn't going to live up to their own standards 100% of the time. They may be underhanded or compromise what they want or think in order to accomplish a task or "keep the peace". They might not feel all warm and fuzzy about it but later they will justify it because of the outcome.
The main area in which D&D and several other tabletop RPGs diverge from Pathfinder is that in Pathfinder, they tackle significantly harder and more mature theme/topics. Some of the stuff they present for our consumption is pretty dark or tense. Approaching these things as if they are an inconvenience is more indicative that Pathfinder may not be the RPG for you as opposed to there actually being something unsavory or wrong within the structure/concept of the system.
People are quick to say “My character wouldn’t do that” or “That doesn’t go with my characters back story” followed by getting angry at their options. Like any game Pathfinder should be fun and enjoyable but I would argue that these contradicting missions to one’s moral code are the perfect opportunities to actually role play with in a “role playing game”. People want to “beat” the entire game. There have been several faction quests I simply refused to do because they were not in line with my character’s ideology…but I role played that and made it fun for me because I was going to miss out on the PP. Other times I have accomplished faction missions just to the letter of the law and not to the “spirit of the law”. If a GM wants to give me a hard time I am prepared to argue it but it has yet to come to that yet.
The bottom line is that it should be fun but that also an alignment is more fluid than people like to think. If you are playing a NG character and don’t want to “kill this one guy because what information I have on him doesn’t make him seem like that bad of a guy” then you should consider role playing within the game to find the information because 9 out or 10 times it is somewhere in the adventure to be had, or it may not be and you decide that you can’t kill them (then feel good because you played to your character rather than playing to just get PP). But also consider that your character is a Pathfinder and not some random adventurer. An aspect of his back story or character concept should include as to why he/she decided to join the Pathfinder Society in the first place and more importantly, why they decided to join their faction.
The best real world example I can think of is that we often think of soldiers as “good guy” but then justify away incidents when they are doing something bad with any number of things from “they deserved it” to “that soldier is the exception to the rule”. But consider that the armed forces all have a similar code of conduct, all follow the same rules of engagement, and as far as US soldiers are supposed to adhere to the rules of the Geneva code…and yet….
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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mswbear, actually, I usually play my character using a fuedal morality system, he's often happy with lots of things that would bother a modern christian sensitivity. (The spoilered mission in Thomas Graham's post above wouldn't bother him if there was a good reason for that penalty.)
And if characters had to chose between doing evil and getting prestige points, that would actually make sense, and it would also mean that paladins and clerics actually have to make some very difficult choices, and that might be interesting.
What I don't like is that the faction missions don't match the faction descriptions. Since switching factions has a significant cost, and since there is no *in game* way to research this prior to joining, it leaves me (the player) feeling lied to. It would be like the rule book saying "bards get "inspire courage" which adds +1 to hit and damage" and then finding out in game that "bards just tell people that so that people will take them along and give them a share of the profits for staying at the back of the party and not getting hurt."
I also don't like the hypocrisy of "It doesn't matter if the mission you were assigned was evil, because you can still do it and it will have no effect on your alignment because you were just following orders." I want to encounter that hypocrisy as infrequently as possible.
(I'm not going to argue creativity with you. If you play with me, you will decide that for yourself, if you don't nothing I say will convince you. I do feel sorry for you if that is the way most of the people around you play. I will say that the massive amount of time that combat can take, and the steep time limits imposed by pfs may be driving some of that behavior.)
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There is another way to earn Prestige for faction missions. It involves finding a way to try to advance your factions overall goals for the season (not really sure how long this has been in effect, just know its in the society guide online). I take it as the campaign heads' idea to try and help characters whose faction missions aren't in line with their morals or goals.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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A lot of table top, especially D&D/Pathfinder is dungeon crawl orientated. This is IMO cause by two things. First, there are more rules for dungeon crawling/combat/whatever because those are the rule heavy area. Second, because people are amazingly uncreative and unimaginative when it comes to things outside of combat or going down a corridor to the next monster/trap/treasure.
Really? And here I thought it was because D&D originated as an outgrowth of tabletop miniatures wargaming, with the concepts of in-character storylines being added years later.
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Earning Prestige
Each scenario provides the opportunity for you to earn
2 PP over the course of the adventure. One of these is
tied to the completion of the overall mission for all
Pathf inders, and is outlined in the Success Conditions
section of the adventure. The second Prestige Point is
gained when a Pathf inder completes his faction specif ic
mission, as outlined in the Faction Missions section of
the adventure.
Alternatively, beginning with Season 4, each faction has
a specific goal it hopes to achieve by the end of the season.
A PC who undertakes a creative approach to forward this
goal outside of the prescribed faction mission may earn 1
Prestige Point for doing so in place of the Prestige Point
gained for the assigned faction mission, at the GM’s
discretion. See page 19 for details on all 10 faction goals
for Season 4.
So it was starting in Season 4. But I did remember it.
Edit: Crap, I forgot to put the page. Pg 26, though that's liable to change in a couple of hours.
