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You contradict yourself. Either he has a super dumped wisdom, down to the point he's more foolish than almost everyone in the width and breadth of Golarion, or he's well rounded. You can't dump a stat down to 7, in world where the lowest stat (not counting racial modifiers) is a 8 and call yourself 'well rounded".
You can if you're a paladin, because all sins are forgiven with Divine Grace at 2nd level.
A pally uses wisdom for almost nothing save the odd Sense Motive check (if he even has the INT to devote to advancing it). Perception? Even with a 12 wisdom and a point every level, as a non-class he's still going to run WAY behind anybody else in the party "gamed" to see things, to say nothing of Stealth-focused adversaries. The player won't be more than about 4th level before routine Perception failures on "decent" d20 rolls have him forehead-smacking himself as to why he ever thought blowing *six* build points (7 vs 12) on wisdom was a ever good idea.
A halfling rogue2/pally I ran once with a WIS of 7 had a base Perception score of +2 over that human or angel-blooded assimir pally with WIS 12 -- he also had the skill points to blow. The halfling, in turn, was *-10* (!!!) relative to my "see everything in @#%$ing sight" INT20/WIS12 elven wizard with a hawk familiar + free Alertness and the Eyes and Ears of the City trait. I.e., the WIS:12 human paladin's Perception score is going to be -12 relative to another party member built for the task.
So, a paladin who fails Perception checks doesn't fail the "well-rounded" test because the class wasn't designed to be any good at it anyway.
You contradict yourself. Either he has a super dumped wisdom, down to the point he's more foolish than almost everyone in the width and breadth of Golarion, or he's well rounded. You can't dump a stat down to 7, in world where the lowest stat (not counting racial modifiers) is a 8 and call yourself 'well rounded".You can if you're a paladin, because all sins are forgiven with Divine Grace at 2nd level.
A pally uses wisdom for almost nothing save the odd Sense Motive check (if he even has the INT to devote to advancing it). Perception? Even with a 12 wisdom and a point every level, as a non-class he's still going to run WAY behind anybody else in the party "gamed" to see things, to say nothing of Stealth-focused adversaries. The player won't be more than about 4th level before routine Perception failures on "decent" d20 rolls have him forehead-smacking himself as to why he ever thought blowing *six* build points (7 vs 12) on wisdom was a ever good idea.
A halfling rogue2/pally I ran once with a WIS of 7 had a base Perception score of +2 over that human or angel-blooded assimir pally with WIS 12 -- he also had the skill points to blow. The halfling, in turn, was *-10* (!!!) relative to my "see everything in @#%$ing sight" INT20/WIS12 elven wizard with a hawk familiar + free Alertness and the Eyes and Ears of the City trait. I.e., the WIS:12 human paladin's Perception score is going to be -12 relative to another party member built for the task.
So, a paladin who fails Perception checks doesn't fail the "well-rounded" test because the class wasn't designed to be any good at it anyway.
Strangely, there are traits a Pally can get which also gives him Perception as a Class skill, so you example of a Wiz with a high perc just proved my point.
In any case, sure, his Perc is gonna be lower than the scouts. So? Maybe the scout rolls a 2 and the Pally rolls a 19. Or the DM rules that anyone that didn't make a Perc check of 15 is surprised.
And sure, Divine grace will add a nice plus to Will saves. Still, the low wis takes back a lot, and failing a will save just plain sucks. Often, you're out of play for the entire encounter, as the OP has shown.
But perc or no, Will or no, being the most foolish man in all of Golarion is hardly the stuff great Knights of Legend are made of. It's the opposite of well rounded.
being the most foolish man in all of Golarion is hardly the stuff great Knights of Legend are made of
Why do you care if he has a low wisdom or not?
being the most foolish man in all of Golarion is hardly the stuff great Knights of Legend are made ofWhy do you care if he has a low wisdom or not?
Because he followed advice here and dumped WIS and his first game session came out bad due to doing so. He had a lot less fun.
Sitting out a combat is badwrongNOTfun, even if the other combats you did do an extra 5 pts of damage. Getting a cursed item because you blew a easy Sense motive is again- badwrongNOTfun. Never making a Perception roll when dozens were called for is ....what? badwrongNOTfun. He even said so.
Yes, doing a few extra points of damage *IS* fun. But it doesn't offset the others.
I'm not sure if raising wisdom will help too much though. Paladins are going to suck at skills no matter what, and its easier to make up for it with magic items than by raising the attribute. Divine grace will make up for the will save at second level and things'll be cool there probably. Calling him the most foolish man in all of Golarion is probably a little over the top maybe. There's a guy with 5 out there somewhere... Additionally, not sure if a sane or intelligent paladin would want to do dirty work for the pathfinders, they don't trend well on the good side of things.
I'm not sure if raising wisdom will help too much though. Paladins are going to suck at skills no matter what, and its easier to make up for it with magic items than by raising the attribute. Divine grace will make up for the will save at second level and things'll be cool there probably. Calling him the most foolish man in all of Golarion is probably a little over the top maybe. There's a guy with 5 out there somewhere... Additionally, not sure if a sane or intelligent paladin would want to do dirty work for the pathfinders, they don't trend well on the good side of things.
Divine grace does add back +2 or even +3 or 4, sure. But you still have a -2 and failing a will save really sux.
You can't buy a 5. There must be some race with -2 wis, tho, but still, NPCs are set with a minimum of 8, with racial makes it 6. Of course the DM can always fiat in a guy with a 1.
Its +4, +5 if he bumps it with level 4, +6 with a headband. + cloak of resistance + Good will save progression. Does a pretty good job of giving you a good will save, though I wouldn't totally dump wisdom on any character myself.
No, you can't buy a 5. But I'm sure somewhere there's a pathfinder with it! I know there's a 5 con guy out there somewhere...
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Just to be clear, bunch of people here are trying very hard to optimize his little gnome paladin because they are semi-afraid that he won't do much damage or are just simply used to optimize characters.
People, there is 5000 ways to make a damage dealer, heavy combatant, switch-hitter or in this case, a gnome paladin.
So right or wrong, DrDeth is right on one thing; You can build any character without dumping stats and dumping stats in PFS won't get you far.
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Strangely, there are traits a Pally can get which also gives him Perception as a Class skill, so you example of a Wiz with a high perc just proved my point.
At the cost of a trait...and he'll still suck at it relative to his Perception-focused allies and Stealth-focused adversaries.
There are a LOT of nice traits for paladins and melees in general; there are like two for elf wizards that are any good (Warrior of Old and Eyes and Ears of the City).In any case, sure, his Perc is gonna be lower than the scouts. So? Maybe the scout rolls a 2 and the Pally rolls a 19.
Then neither one of them are going to see the Stealth monster. Well, the scout *might* if he's a race-bumped ranger or rogue hyper-specialized in enemy-location, and A-listed sight gear in his budget.
Are you ready to butcher 30% of your 20pt buy, a trait, and gear budget to jack a skill that, in the best of circumstances, is only going to beat mooks by mid-level? And what is your paladin's intelligence? Did you pay for a +2 INT for the skill points you're spending on Perception? If so, now you're MAD in *two* more stats. Which of STR or DEX and CON or CHA are you croaking to offset the 8 or 9 build points you're paying for elevated WIS an INT?
Lastly, due to their immense reserve of Lay on Hands hitpoints, paladins just don't need to go first all the time anyway. They are the class that can most afford to stand there going "da-wah?" during a surprise, and get away with it.
= = = = =
The concept of the dull-witted guy with a heart of gold who leads by the chin is a well-established fantasy trope -- so there's no shame at all in selecting wisdom as a dump stat.
Having +3 to a non-class skill is never worth 30% of your point-buy unless you're getting hella lot else out of it -- and paladins just don't get that much mileage out of wisdom. (By contrast, an INT-raised fighter is at least qualified for some good feat-strings.)
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...and dumping stats in PFS won't get you far.
I have so many ways I want to argue this that they have train-wrecked in my brain. So now you get the train wreck.
All I play is PFS, as far as Pathfinder is concerned. I could write a marketing pamphlet as to why, but bottom line is I find it worthwhile.
Dumping stats is exactly what gets you far. If you don't know why you're dumping a stat and how to behave in situations when your weakness is foremost, then you are in for some rough times. Otherwise it's just another good answer to getting more bang for your buck. Also, if you're not investing skill points in an area (and even if you are) the -1 or -2 is inconsequential over the long term. You're still not making the DC 30 check (or you are because of feats, traits, abilities, etc...). The same basically goes for saving throws which are more important. In fact, a successful adventurer needs to have an answer for weak saves (or just not have weak saves).
To be successful with flaws in your character is to embrace that you are NOT something, but you are very good at something else. Learn to play your strengths and compensate, work around, or minimize your disadvantages. That philosophy is not min-maxing or optimizing, it is merely learning to play any character.
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@ErrantPursuit
I respect your opinion completely and maybe I went to far in saying that, but let me clarify in short response.
If there is one thing that works in PFS, it's that you are generally better off being jack of all trades because you never know what you might get on the other side of the table and with 20 pts buy, you have plenty of points to alocate without dumping stats. There is simply no need to do it unless you envision your character as such.
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@Malag I can agree with the idea that it's important to be able to look after yourself. What I think matters most is "Can you heal yourself in a pinch, make most saving throws, survive a critical hit, and do enough damage to matter?" Which is not an easy list of criteria for a single character. I also agree with your point that, unless you just need it for something, you can get buy with a 14 where most people want to buy a 16.
Strangely, there are traits a Pally can get which also gives him Perception as a Class skill, so you example of a Wiz with a high perc just proved my point.At the cost of a trait...and he'll still suck at it relative to his Perception-focused allies and Stealth-focused adversaries.
Then neither one of them are going to see the Stealth monster.Are you ready to butcher 30% of your 20pt buy, a trait, and gear budget to jack a skill that, in the best of circumstances, is only going to beat mooks by mid-level?
Having +3 to a non-class skill is never worth 30% of your point-buy unless you're getting hella lot else out of it -- and paladins just don't get that much mileage out of wisdom. (By contrast, an INT-raised fighter is at least qualified for some good feat-strings.)
OK, you used a trait for your hypothetical, so my hypothetical also gets to use one.
Yeah, so? Who cares about the super-stealth monster? I am talking about the goblin with a 15, which the Pally has to roll a 17 to see.
30%? No, simply DON'T DUMP. Dumping is the sign of someone who can't build well. In any case, as our OP learned, getting 5% extra damage doesn't help if you sit out the ENTIRE ENCOUNTER because you failed a will save. Or have your PC suck because you failed a simple low Sense Motive. Or not having fun as you fail constantly the single most used skill in the game. Sure you don;t see the super-stealth assassin, but you don;t see ANYTHING.
Its +4, +5 if he bumps it with level 4, +6 with a headband. + cloak of resistance + Good will save progression. Does a pretty good job of giving you a good will save, though I wouldn't totally dump wisdom on any character myself.
So, now he's spending all his cash on a headband of Wis rather than a belt of str? Look, the point buy system is set up to favor not trying to buy super-higher numbers. A 12 costs you 2. Going from a 16 to a 18 costs you 7.
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I feel like I have to jump in on the "biggest fool in Golarion" thing, because I'm pedantic.
A guy with 7 wisdom has below-average wisdom, but he isn't spectacularly foolish. If people are roughly on a 3d6 stat distribution, then he's just under 1.2 standard deviations below average. (...for adventurers, and the case has been made that non-adventurers have sub-3d6 stats.)
That's around the 12th percentile, which is low, but not mind-blowingly low. A north american man at the 12th percentile for height would be 5 foot 5 1/2". Is he short? Sure. Do people come from miles around to point and laugh at the short guy? No, because he's not far enough from average to really stand out.
7 wisdom is unwise, and to some of his friends he might be the most unwise person they've personally met - but it's not like he's incapacitated; he's just -1 behind the guy with totally average wisdom.
I have an aversion to dumping myself, but let's not go completely hyperbolic about it.
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@DrDeth Arguing on skills is pretty thin ice period. There are a lot of ways to be successful without using common skills. Knowledge(local) is enormously handy and yet I do not see you vehemently arguing for it. Spellcraft is great tactically, and again I do not see you complaining about that.
SirThugsalot's argument is very reasonable. As I understand it, he's saying "As a Paladin you're not going to be very good at this unless you devote a lot of resources into it. Those resources could be used elsewhere for more gain, and since your have limited resources it provides more efficiency to not worry about it."
You're argument seems to be "You must have perception because someone else might fail a roll you could succeed at. Also, everyone has it and you roll it a lot."
Personally I prefer SirThugsalot's take on the situation.
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Perception does not make the game. It's handy to have. If you can Lay on Hands, wear heavy armor, are immune to several terrible effects, and have good hitpoints and very good saving throws...not seeing somebody will not drop your game into the toilet. You roll, your other four friends roll. Somebody probably made the DC, but maybe not. Those are the breaks. If you want to avoid surprise rounds, take the Teamwork Feat: Lookout, and then have your high perception friend take it, too, or buy this ring so you can hand it around and get to act.
Believe it or not, there are several completely viable options for building a character with poor or no perception that are survivable, fun to play, and do not get the party killed. Spending as much energy as you have on insisting that Wisdom is not to be dumped by anyone because of Perception is a fairly untenable position to take. Furthermore, should the paladin pick up UMD from a trait (or just untrained) his charisma gets him very good checks to make to use items that grant sensory bonuses.
Bottom line: Perception isn't all that. It's useful, and we're all glad people take it and get very good at it. Wisdom is useful, but unless you're using it as a class mechanic, then it's not critical. Both of these hurdles can be overcome with a little character planning, sometimes to greater effectiveness.
Afterthought:
Yeah, so? Who cares about the super-stealth monster? I am talking about the goblin with a 15, which the Pally has to roll a 17 to see.
That super-stealth monster is the only guy to worry about. It's the one who kills you. Any creature that relies on getting complete surprise to pull off an ability, usually has a devastating ability. The goblin with a 15 has been seen and pointed out by my four friends.
So, now he's spending all his cash on a headband of Wis rather than a belt of str?
No, in my example it was a headband of charisma and I said to make up for the skill with items, not the attribute. So instead of buying a headband of wisdom you buy something like an ioun stone or eagle eye goggles if you want to help the skill. Far cheaper!
A guy with 7 wisdom has below-average wisdom, but he isn't spectacularly foolish. If people are roughly on a 3d6 stat distribution, then he's just under 1.2 standard deviations below average. (...for adventurers, and the case has been made that non-adventurers have sub-3d6 stats.)
Yes. *IF*. But since that's not the case, your analogy and nice math is moot.
"Basic NPCs: The ability scores for a basic NPC are: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, and 8."
So, the lowest stat of NPCs in Golarion (DM fiat & racial modifiers notwithstanding) is a 8.
SirThugsalot's argument is very reasonable. As I understand it, he's saying "As a Paladin you're not going to be very good at this unless you devote a lot of resources into it. Those resources could be used elsewhere for more gain, and since your have limited resources it provides more efficiency to not worry about it."You're argument seems to be "You must have perception because someone else might fail a roll you could succeed at. Also, everyone has it and you roll it a lot."
Well, you don;t have to be "very good" at perception. Just somewhat decent. yes, the scout role should have it maxed, but most of the rest of the party should not dump it.
A guy with 7 wisdom has below-average wisdom, but he isn't spectacularly foolish. If people are roughly on a 3d6 stat distribution, then he's just under 1.2 standard deviations below average. (...for adventurers, and the case has been made that non-adventurers have sub-3d6 stats.)Yes. *IF*. But since that's not the case, your analogy and nice math is moot.
"Basic NPCs: The ability scores for a basic NPC are: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, and 8."
So, the lowest stat of NPCs in Golarion (DM fiat & racial modifiers notwithstanding) is a 8.
Hmm. Pretty narrow, rigid viewpoint.
If your party ever has to haul babies out of a burning nursery, don't forget that a human doesn't ever, ever weigh less than 95 pounds. ;)
This thread is still going? Furthermore is a Bard now.
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... with 20 pts buy, you have plenty of points to allocate without dumping stats.
Let's examine my favorite 20pt stat array of 15/14/14/14/12/07.
Look at all the bang for the buck in there:
* 15 > 17(racial) > 18(4th) > 20(gear)
* three other +2 stats and another +1.
Now try raising the 7 to a 12. To pay for it, two 14s have to drop to 12s.
...leaving you with 15/14/12/12/12/12 (the most "bonus dense" 20pt array maintaining the starting 15 necessary for a 20 with first stat-bump item in which only one stat will be raised long term; the only array more point-dense has lots of 13s all raised one-by-one).
So, the trade-off is: (07>12) paid for by 2x(14>12).
The 15/14/12/12/12/12 array is quite good in something like a gnome bard who fancies occasional melee without blowing a precious feat on Weapon Finesse. Unlike the paladin, he's not getting his CHA bonus to his saving throws. So, what is the gnome bard's will save at 6th with WIS:12? ...it's 1(WIS) + 4(class). Without buffing, our gnome fails a DC15 will-save half the time at 6th. -- I would totally play this character.
Now put the dump array into a vanilla human paladin with the 7 in wisdom. By 6th level, his CHA bonus with CHA item is +5, meaning his no-buff will save at 6th will be +2 over the bard. All three of his physical stats are 14s; and he pulls 4sk/lvl with the 12 in INT.