Hey guys, I have two games I run, two different players using almost the same build for Ranger or Fighter/Ranger. Here is a example of the build, 20 pt buy, currently level 6. My issue is that at level 6 the fighter on average with using Rapid Shot + Point Blank + Deadly Aim + Many Shot in a full round is doing 1d8+11 4 times. averaging 64 damage in a round, almost 1 taking down a boss at level 6 instantly. Is this how ranger is played or is there something I don't know in regards to the feats/shots?
Also know that as per home brew rules, all characters are given Weapon Finesse and Intimidating Prowess are given as free feats.
Male Human (Chelaxian) Fighter (Archer) 6
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +6
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 13, flat-footed 17 (+7 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 46 (6d10+6)
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +2
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee +1 Longsword +7/+2 (1d8+3/19-20/x2) and
Club +6/+6/+1 (1d6+7/x2) and
Masterwork Scimitar +7/+2 (1d6+2/18-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Composite longbow (Str +2) +9/+9/+4 (1d8+11/x3)
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +6; CMB +7; CMD 21
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Blind-Fight, Deadly Aim -2/+4, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
Traits Highlander (hills or mountains), Magical Knack (-Choose-)
Skills Acrobatics +3 (-1 jump), Climb +7, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +11, Knowledge (engineering) +7, Knowledge (nature) +8, Perception +6, Ride +0, Stealth +10 (+12 in hilly or rocky areas), Survival +8, Swim +8
SQ trick shots (trick shot: disarm)
Combat Gear Potion of cure light wounds (2), Alchemist's fire (2), Weapon blanch (cold iron) (2), Weapon blanch (silver) (2); Other Gear +1 Breastplate, +1 Composite longbow (Str +2), +1 Longsword
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Special Abilities
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Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Highlander (hills or mountains) +1 to Stealth checks, Stealth is always a class skill for you. Double this in hilly or rocky areas.
Magical Knack (-Choose-) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Trick Shot: Disarm Disarm with a bow at 30' and -4 CMB.
Well, archers are pretty easy to make to be fairly marginalizing to encounters.
The first problem I see with that ranger is that it's actually a fighter. ;)
The damage looks about right, although there's a +2 damage that I'm not seeing.
1d8+2(str)+1 (weapon training)+4 deadly aim (already factored in, I'm assuming), +1 (enhancement) + 2 (weapon specialization). That's 2 damage I'm not seeing accounted for, really.
Attack bonus: 3 (dex) + 6 (BAB) + 1(bow) + 1 (weapon focus) -2 rapid shot = +9.
So I guess Deadly Aim isn't accounted for there. How are they getting +11 damage?M Maybe I'm missing something obvious.
without dissecting it with a fine tooth comb, yes it appears he's doing everything right. Though, technically he doesn't get 4 attacks, he gets 3 attacks and an extra instance of damage if the first attack hits so.. tomato/tomato.
Still, seems ok, and nor would I say that he's especially optimized. Also he's not a ranger, he's a fighter. Archery is just that good, is all. That's not to say melee or magic is bad by any means, maybe the rest of the party just needs more levels to fully realize their build.
Also, archer is one of the most straightforward builds out there, it's possible if this is a game with relatively new players, he just picked a class that's easy to understand and get a lot of damage out of: the fighter, which could be why he's outshining the party, if I'm catching your drift.
Remember, the fighter fights really well... but he doesn't do other things especially well. He doesnt have a ton of social skills, he doesnt have spells that give tons of utility to the party, he just fights. Combat is sort of his thing.
Honestly, from everything I can tell, he's actually slightly gimping himself.
Only 19 points are spent on stats
Str 14 = 5
Dex 17 = 7 (Buy 15, put +2 in Dex)
Con 12 = 2
Int 16 = 7 (Buy 15, add +1 from 4th level)
Wis 10 = 0
Cha 8 = -2
Total = 19
His full attack, taking everything into account looks right. Honestly at 6th level though a BBEG should have a 20 AC easily, which means he should be missing 55% of the time on his two highest attacks, and even more on his lowest.
Looks like there is point blank/deadly aim shenanigans going on here.
Damage: 1d8 +2 (str), +1 (weapon training), +4 (deadly aim), +1 (enhancement), +2 (weapon specialization), +1 (point blank) = +11.
Attack: 3 (dex) + 6 (BAB) + 1 (bow) + 1 (weapon focus) -2 rapid shot, -2 (deadly aim), +1 (point blank) = 8
Point Blank should only count for creatures within 30ft. How often is that?
So without Point Blank:
If deadly aim is on, then the correct values should be something like:
+7/+7/+2 (1d8+10)
with deadly aim off
+9/+9/+4 (1d8+6)
also, his damage seems to be correct.
d8+2(str)+1(weapon training)+4(deadly aim) + 2( weapon specialization) +1(enhancement) +1 (point blank)
that adds up to d8+11 in my book. This does assume he's within 30 feet of the target, but that is often the case I'm sure.
AvianFoo: the archer is assuming point blank shot in effect I think. You also forgot his to hit bonus for weapon training.
That does indeed make his bonus +9/+9/+9/+4 d8+11
Attack: +6 BAB, +3 DEX, +1 Enh to Bow, +1 Expert Archer, +1 Weapon Focus= +12/+7
Damage: d8+ 2 STR + 1 Enh to Bow, +1 Expert Archer, +2 Weapon Spec= d8+6
Both these are just base numbers.
Deadly Aim is -2 to hit +4 damage per shot.
Point Blank shot (inside 30') adds +1 to these, so +13/+8 and d8+7
Point Blank shot w/Deadly Aim is +11/+6 and d8+11
Manyshot (2 arrows on first attack): +12/+7 and 2d8+12/d8+6
Manyshot (inside 30'): +13/+8 and 2d8+14/d8+7
Manyshot Deadly Aim: +10/+5 and 2d8+20/d8+10
Manyshot w/DA and inside 30': +11/+6 and 2d8+22/d8+11
Manyshot w/Rapid Shot: +10/+10/+5 and 2d8+12/d8+6/d8+6
Manyshot w/Rapid Shot & DA: +8/+8/+3 and 2d8+20/d8+10/d8+10
Manyshot w/Rapid Shot & DA inside 30': +9/+9/+4 and 2d8+22/d8+11/d8+11
That last line looks a lot like your player's build. I guess he's not adding in Manyshot along with the Rapid Shot on the character sheet, but he's assuming EVERY shot is made within 30' of the target with those stats.
alright well it looks like its pretty straight forward. I'm aware he is a fighter, he is going for arcane archer. I do have a actual ranger who is basically the same build in another game. The way the feats stack ruin some moments in adventure paths i find though. Example they are going into the skinsaw man fight in Runelords. I can see that in 1 full round he will have this encounter down to 10% of his hit points in one attack. Meaning the party will have the encounter done in less than a round.
With a ranged weapon, your attack bonus is the following:
Base attack bonus (6/1) + Dexterity modifier (3) + size modifier (0) + range penalty (+1 within 30 feet w/ pt blank) + Weapon Focus (1) + Magical Enhancement (1) = +12/+7
Manyshot gives +11/+6 for 2 full attacks but 3 hits (just adds another damage dice if that first attack hits because it's 2 arrows not 2 attacks).
Rapid Shot gives +9/+9/+4 for 3 full attacks (add another damage dice + bonuses if the first attack hits w/ Manyshot) with the -2 to all attacks
Deadly Aim -2/+4 to each attack so it'd drop back to +7/+7/+2 for 3 attacks (4 damage dice + damage bonuses if first attack hits)
Point Blank +1/+1 to each attack within 30 ft so it'd go up to +8/+8/+3 for full attacks
Damage bonuses
Weapon Specialization +2 damage
Weapon Str Bonus +2 damage
Deadly Aim + 4 damage
Strength Bow + 2 damage
Magical Enhancement on bow + 1 damage
Point Blank (within 30 feet) + 1 damage
In summation: The static damage would be 1d8 +11 (+12) per shot up to 4 shots in a full round attack.
Edit: NINJA'D!
2nd Edit: If this is a fighter who has taken Bows as their weapon training then everything gets +1/+1 to it as well which takes effect at level 5.
If it's a ranger only (or has at least 5 levels in ranger) then it doesn't get that weapon training bonus, but rather adds in some favored enemies of +4/+4 (1st enemy at level 1 - this is the level 5 bonus) and +2/+2 (2nd favored enemy at level 5).
alright well it looks like its pretty straight forward. I'm aware he is a fighter, he is going for arcane archer. I do have a actual ranger who is basically the same build in another game. The way the feats stack ruin some moments in adventure paths i find though. Example they are going into the skinsaw man fight in Runelords. I can see that in 1 full round he will have this encounter down to 10% of his hit points in one attack. Meaning the party will have the encounter done in less than a round.
Unless this archer is getting some major buff or debuff help from the rest of the party, there's no way he's going to hurt the Skinsaw Man that much.
Is Rapid Shot + Many Shot legal? It wasn't in 3.5, but this could have changed in Pathfinder.
Yep, they are in a full round attack action. The first shot is 2 arrows (manyshot) at the same time and then they get an extra attack (rapid shot).