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This question came up the other day. . . .
Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature.
Does the spell Command Undead really have a 50% miss chance against incorporeal undead? Would you need the Ectoplasmic metamagic feat to affect incorporeal undead normally?
No.
The undead type preceeds the incorporeal type.
If the spell effects undead, reconcile that first:
Is the incorporeal creature undead? If yes, it's effected as normal.
Just my 2 cents.
Sorry Kryzbyn, but that's wrong. This is a case of specific rules overriding general rules. Does this spell work on undead? Yes, that's the general rule. Does this spell work on incorporeal undead? Yes, but incorporeal creatures have a 50% miss chance against non-damaging spells, including this one. That's the specific rule. Slapping an Ectoplasmic metamagic or some similar effect on this spell is necessary for it to not suffer that miss chance.
It's undead first, incorporeal second.
The first should trump the second.
But, I'll FAQ it...see what happens.
Nope, specific trumps general. Undead is a creature type, incorporeal is a creature subtype. By applying a subtype or template to a base creature, that creature is modified and gains all the appropriate bonuses and/or weaknesses. For example: swarm is a subtype. If you had a certain type of base creature attack you when you had Displacement up, it would (most likely) have to roll for a 50% miss chance. A swarm subtyped critter, however, would not because swarms avoid that kind of thing in combat and specific rules overrides general rules.
Each creature has one type, which broadly defines its abilities. Some creatures also have one or more subtypes. A creature cannot violate the rules of its subtype without a special ability or quality to explain the difference
While the above text was probably meant primarily to imply that you can't have advantages that conflict with something in one of its subtypes, it would apply equally to disadvantages as well.
So unless the creature has fluff text or some other ability that causes it to be affected as a corporeal creature for non-damaging spells, the above would indicate that even though it's undead, it also has to follow the rules for an incorporeal at the same time.
Doesn't hold person effect all humanoids, regardless of subtype?
Doesn't hold person effect all humanoids, regardless of subtype?
Not if the humanoid has a subtype that grants it some sort of immunity to mind-affecting effects of compulsions.
(To be fair, I'm not aware of any off the top of my head. If there were, then they would still be immune because of their subtype)
As long as those subtypes don't have any immunities to said type of spell, yes. Humanoids typically aren't that impressive when it comes to inherent abilities, though; ditto with their subtypes. For a better example, look at outsiders and their subtypes. For example, the daemon subtype. Are outsiders generally vulnerable to poison like most other living creatures? Yes, but note that the Daemon subtype grants any such outsiders immunity to poison. As Xaratherus said, you can't get around the rules that apply to a subtype unless something specifically spells out how and why.
I can see what you're saying, and I agree, but in this specific case this makes no sense, tbh.
Hmm, good question. Typically channeling positive or negative energy gets right through incorporeal when it comes to dealing damage. I'd say this sets the precedent to allow it to bypass the 50% miss chance here as well.
I'd actually say the opposite, Cerberus Seven. The text on incorporeal states that spells (Command Undead spell) or effects (Command Undead feat) that don't cause damage suffer the miss chance, so I'd argue that the feat would as well, unless the Channel (Negative) Energy feature has some specific text that says it bypasses it.
It would make sense if there were a higher level Command Undead spell that had verbiage "This also effects incorporeal undead"...
I agree, RAW it doesn't list such an exception. It seems like it should, though. I mean, why does negative channeled energy do full damage to incorporeal critters but still has a 50% chance to miss for any other effects the energy might cause besides damage?
Anyways, FAQing YuenglingDragon's question, as I think a dev might want to clear that up a little bit.
Since the errata adding Channel Energy as an exception for the 50% damage reduction, I've assumed that meant Command/Turn Undead aren't affected by the incorporeal miss chance. I guess there's no evidence to support that though. . . .
So the consensus is that command undead (the spell) is affected by the incorporeal miss chance. That would make 7th level control undead also subject to the miss chance. That's pretty crazy, but I guess it makes Ectoplasmic Spell a better deal.
I wasn't aware that Channel Energy had been errata'd to ignore the 50% miss chance.
In that case, I would alter my original statement and assume that the Command Undead feat would avoid the miss chance; if you can't miss to channel energy to hurt\heal, I don't think it's reasonable to believe you'd miss with the same ability just because you're utilizing a different effect of that ability.