I noticed something in a build I am working on, and wanted to get a clarification.
A ninja character taking the ninja trick, "Rogue Talent" has the following stipulation; Ninja Trick: Rogue Talent wrote: Rogue Talent: The ninja can select a rogue talent in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja can select this talent multiple times. However a rogue character taking the rogue talent, "Ninja Trick" has a different qualifier; Rogue Talent: Ninja Trick wrote: Ninja Trick (Ex)
Benefit: A rogue with this talent can choose a trick from the ninja trick list. The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require ki points, unless she has a ki pool.
Special: A rogue can pick this talent more than once.
Now what I noticed that was noteworthy, is that the rogue can, by RAW, take a ninja trick with the same name as a rogue talent. E.g. selecting the rogue talent, 'combat trick' and the rogue talent, 'ninja trick: combat trick'. There are a few other similar potential issues as well.
Am I missing something, some errata or FAQ? I'm guessing I won't have been the first to notice this...
It is not stated anywhere but I would still rule that "The rogue cannot select a ninja talent that has the same name as a rogue trick."
Also of note is that rogues can take Ninja Trick multiple times, but ninjas cannot take Rogue Talent multiple times. Go figure.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: Also of note is that rogues can take Ninja Trick multiple times, but ninjas cannot take Rogue Talent multiple times. Go figure. Except for the line that says "The ninja can select this talent multiple times." :p
Bigdaddyjug wrote: Also of note is that rogues can take Ninja Trick multiple times, but ninjas cannot take Rogue Talent multiple times. Go figure. As a case in point, the Ninja CAN do this now!
Quote: Rogue Talent: The ninja can select a rogue talent in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja can select this talent multiple times. Just checked the Ninja class a couple tabs ago, and the Ninja can take the talent "Rogue Talent" multiple times! Yay~! "Ninja: Anything rogues can do, I can do earlier..." *turns invisible and returns to the great Shadow*
Avianfoo wrote: Bigdaddyjug wrote: Also of note is that rogues can take Ninja Trick multiple times, but ninjas cannot take Rogue Talent multiple times. Go figure. Except for the line that says "The ninja can select this talent multiple times." :p Ahhhh, they must have errataed that since the printing that I own and I never noticed it.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: Avianfoo wrote: Bigdaddyjug wrote: Also of note is that rogues can take Ninja Trick multiple times, but ninjas cannot take Rogue Talent multiple times. Go figure. Except for the line that says "The ninja can select this talent multiple times." :p Ahhhh, they must have errataed that since the printing that I own and I never noticed it. Considering that the ninja was introduced in Ultimate Combat, and there has been precisely NO errata released for that book to date (and it DESPERATELY needs some), I'm pretty sure you just missed it when reading it.
Noticed it myself a week or two ago, found nothing on it. Presumably, it still remains doable by RAW. Welcome to a possibility of 4 bonus combat feats (though two of them are weapon focus, which seems a little redundant). Your Rogue is slightly better than those who bemoan it as a weak class decry.
SCPRedMage wrote: Bigdaddyjug wrote: Avianfoo wrote: Bigdaddyjug wrote: Also of note is that rogues can take Ninja Trick multiple times, but ninjas cannot take Rogue Talent multiple times. Go figure. Except for the line that says "The ninja can select this talent multiple times." :p Ahhhh, they must have errataed that since the printing that I own and I never noticed it. Considering that the ninja was introduced in Ultimate Combat, and there has been precisely NO errata released for that book to date (and it DESPERATELY needs some), I'm pretty sure you just missed it when reading it. Entirely possible. Although I play a ninja in a home game and one n PFS, so I can't tell you how many times I've read the ninja information.
When a Rogue takes Ninja Trick, and selects a trick that depends on Ninja level (e.g. Vanishing Trick when the Rogue already has Ki Pool), what level should be used? This is something that needs to be clarified in errata.
Should it be:
* Character's Ninja level, minimum 1
* 1/2 Rogue level
* Full Rogue level
* Not allowed to take Ninja Tricks that depend on Ninja levels
Thanks :)
Also of note: Ninja can get advanced rogue talents, but Rogues cannot get advanced ninja tricks.
There is a feat for extra rogue talents, but not extra ninja tricks.
Sorceror wrote: When a Rogue takes Ninja Trick, and selects a trick that depends on Ninja level (e.g. Vanishing Trick when the Rogue already has Ki Pool), what level should be used? This is something that needs to be clarified in errata.
Should it be:
* Character's Ninja level, minimum 1
* 1/2 Rogue level
* Full Rogue level
* Not allowed to take Ninja Tricks that depend on Ninja levels
Thanks :)
Since Ninja is an archetype of Rogue, the levels are the same.
/cevah
Physically Unfeasible wrote: Noticed it myself a week or two ago, found nothing on it. Presumably, it still remains doable by RAW. Welcome to a possibility of 4 bonus combat feats (though two of them are weapon focus, which seems a little redundant). Your Rogue is slightly better than those who bemoan it as a weak class decry. The redundant "weapon focus" is welcomed for the Thunder & Fang Rogue!
You could also grab the rogue archetype which lets you take combat trick twice; thus getting 5 bonus combat feats...
And there are other combat feats you can grab through other rogue tricks; improved steal, weapon finesse, and intimidating prowess; though these are not also ninja tricks; it would be 8 total combat feats in place of rogue talents. Of course, by then you would be able to get a non-combat feat as a talent too; making 9 bonus feats in place of rogue talents.
Not that anybody would do all that; I could see someone grabbing 2 or 3 combat tricks and one weapon focus, maybe finesse as well (or a second focus, as mentioned above, for thunder & fang)... but that would be about it.
Cevah wrote: Also of note: Ninja can get advanced rogue talents, but Rogues cannot get advanced ninja tricks.
There is a feat for extra rogue talents, but not extra ninja tricks.
Sorceror wrote: When a Rogue takes Ninja Trick, and selects a trick that depends on Ninja level (e.g. Vanishing Trick when the Rogue already has Ki Pool), what level should be used? This is something that needs to be clarified in errata.
Should it be:
* Character's Ninja level, minimum 1
* 1/2 Rogue level
* Full Rogue level
* Not allowed to take Ninja Tricks that depend on Ninja levels
Thanks :)
Since Ninja is an archetype of Rogue, the levels are the same.
/cevah
Ninja is not an archetype, but an 'Alternate Class' - while similar, it is distinctly different.
karossii wrote: Cevah wrote: Also of note: Ninja can get advanced rogue talents, but Rogues cannot get advanced ninja tricks.
There is a feat for extra rogue talents, but not extra ninja tricks.
Sorceror wrote: When a Rogue takes Ninja Trick, and selects a trick that depends on Ninja level (e.g. Vanishing Trick when the Rogue already has Ki Pool), what level should be used? This is something that needs to be clarified in errata.
Should it be:
* Character's Ninja level, minimum 1
* 1/2 Rogue level
* Full Rogue level
* Not allowed to take Ninja Tricks that depend on Ninja levels
Thanks :)
Since Ninja is an archetype of Rogue, the levels are the same.
/cevah
Ninja is not an archetype, but an 'Alternate Class' - while similar, it is distinctly different. I could not recall the name. However, you can still apply the archetypes for Rogue to Ninja provided they take things the Ninja has. This makes it clear in my mind that they are the same class.
/cevah
karossii wrote: Cevah wrote: Also of note: Ninja can get advanced rogue talents, but Rogues cannot get advanced ninja tricks.
There is a feat for extra rogue talents, but not extra ninja tricks.
Sorceror wrote: When a Rogue takes Ninja Trick, and selects a trick that depends on Ninja level (e.g. Vanishing Trick when the Rogue already has Ki Pool), what level should be used? This is something that needs to be clarified in errata.
Should it be:
* Character's Ninja level, minimum 1
* 1/2 Rogue level
* Full Rogue level
* Not allowed to take Ninja Tricks that depend on Ninja levels
Thanks :)
Since Ninja is an archetype of Rogue, the levels are the same.
/cevah
Ninja is not an archetype, but an 'Alternate Class' - while similar, it is distinctly different. Actually, it's not. They have stated a couple of times that an "alternate class" is just an archetype for which the character progression is fully fleshed out. Anything that affects a rogue, will affect a ninja.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: karossii wrote: Cevah wrote: Also of note: Ninja can get advanced rogue talents, but Rogues cannot get advanced ninja tricks.
There is a feat for extra rogue talents, but not extra ninja tricks.
Sorceror wrote: When a Rogue takes Ninja Trick, and selects a trick that depends on Ninja level (e.g. Vanishing Trick when the Rogue already has Ki Pool), what level should be used? This is something that needs to be clarified in errata.
Should it be:
* Character's Ninja level, minimum 1
* 1/2 Rogue level
* Full Rogue level
* Not allowed to take Ninja Tricks that depend on Ninja levels
Thanks :)
Since Ninja is an archetype of Rogue, the levels are the same.
/cevah
Ninja is not an archetype, but an 'Alternate Class' - while similar, it is distinctly different. Actually, it's not. They have stated a couple of times that an "alternate class" is just an archetype for which the character progression is fully fleshed out. Anything that affects a rogue, will affect a ninja. Actually, it is. If you bother to click that link and read, you will see what the descernable difference is; primarily it is considered "too expansive for an archetype."
Is it similar to an archetype? Yes, it is.
Does everything apply to the alternate class as it does to the core class? No - only those things for which it shares class features apply.
Can an Alternate class take an archetype for a core class? As long as it has the appropriate features to trade, yes.
Is it an archetype? No; it is an Alternate Class.
So you linked me to a non-Paizo site to justify what you think it is. I'll stick with Paizo's opinion that it's just a fully fleshed out archetype and let things that affect rogues affect ninjas.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: So you linked me to a non-Paizo site to justify what you think it is. I'll stick with Paizo's opinion that it's just a fully fleshed out archetype and let things that affect rogues affect ninjas. Okay, so Paizo says... "The ninja is an alternate class for the rogue core class." I guess I need new glasses. I misread where they printed Archetype there. I thought it said Alternate Class instead.
Oh wait, nope, its just that you're still wrong, and it does say Alternate Class. My bad.
I'm going by a post in a thread for like 10 months ago that I read when I was creating my ninja. I'll see if I can find it, but my search fu is generally terrible.
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