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I apologize in advance for the seeming redundancy of several of these questions. I find a great many threads on the boards but no real understanding or explanation for many of the claims or positions made. So here we go:
1) Spells Known: It may be a personal perception issue, but I find it hard to understand why certain class features progress with theurge and others do not. Example being a domain versus a bloodline. As I take levels in MT, Domain spells continue to become available and usable. However, several times people have stated that you do not gain bloodline spells. Why is that the case? I gained the bloodline at first level. Bloodline spells are spells known, in addition to regular spells known, meaning they do not take up a slot for my spells known on the table. This also bleeds over into my understanding of Mystery spells. I understand and agree that class features and abilities are not advanced when you gain MT levels, but it clearly states that you learn the spell and add it to spells known in addition to the table. If you are not allowed access to the spells, can I at least get a citation as to why? Right now it feels like there is a major double standard being applied here, as such inhibitibing or in the case of progressing wizard MTs, downright crippling of a character's progression.
2) Entry Requirements: This mainly has to do with racial Spell like abilities. Both the Tiefling and Aasimar races have spell like abilities that are on Cleric and Wizard spell lists of sufficent level to satisfy the spellcasting requirements to enter the class. Now, I have seen wildly different takes on this. My question really comes down to this: Racial Daylight and Darkness, what does each spell like ability qualify for? Do they satisfy all, or just part of them?
3) Combined Spells: This one i understand to an extent, but also is a bit confusing in other aspects. So as an example: Cleric/Wizard Theurge, 3clr/3wiz/1MT. Character chooses to prepare a magic missile spell on his cleric side. If I am reading the rules for it correctly, that spell would classify as a 1st level divine spell being prepared in a 2nd level spell slot. Is that correct? If so, is caster level then determined by my cleric caster level, or does it retain wizard caster level?
I'm sure i have other questions, but these are the ones that came to mind right off hand.
1. There's currently an FAQ question on this. I personally believe that the only thing intended to advance via Mystic Theurge are class spells granted specifically by the Spells section of the class; that would not include Domains or Bloodlines.
Why? I see Mystic Theurge as trading the class-specific powers of the character's 'child' classes for a greatly-expanded basic spell repertoire.
2. From the FAQ on the topic: "Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order."
In other words, an SLA that exists on the Sorcerer\Wizard spell list at all will be considered arcane, even if it also exists on a divine caster's list, if the character is a divine caster class, or the character is seemingly of a divine race. (And yes, the reference here is from the monster rules, but the FAQ clarifies that they are applying these rules to humanoid PC races as well).
3. Honestly not certain. Will leave someone else to answer this.
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1. There's currently an FAQ question on this. I personally believe that the only thing intended to advance via Mystic Theurge are class spells granted specifically by the Spells section of the class; that would not include Domains or Bloodlines.
Why? I see Mystic Theurge as trading the class-specific powers of the character's 'child' classes for a greatly-expanded basic spell repertoire.
Alright, then if that is the case, Why do spontaneous casters such as sorcerers and oracles not get their bonus spells know, which theurges gain as part of their advancement, but at the same time clerics and druids which have domains which are prepared bonus spells do receive theirs?
This may sound asinine, but this is a clear case of where the exact opposite of the rules as written are being played out, and there is no logical explanation that I can see for why.
1) I would think that you get the bloodline spells when your sorcerer caster level is high enough to cast them just like domain spells. I don't recall anywhere that would say you don't get them. Bloodline and domain powers you would not get.
2) "Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are NOT spells..." (Emphasis added by me) Since spell-like abilities are not spells I would say that Aasimar and tiefling's Daylight and Darkness do not allow entry into MT.
3) Without the heighten spell feat it would remain a 1st level spell in a 2nd level spell slot. I'm unsure which class' caster level it would go off of per the rules. I would probably go with the class whose spell slot I am using. I think that would also apply if a target gets a saving throw bonus against spells from certain types of casters, like having a +1 to saves versus divine spells. So a wizard spell cast in a cleric spell slot would be a divine spell but a cleric spell cast in a wizard spell slot would be arcane. But that last point is just my opinion, I don't know of any rules that state that.
Personally, I don't think they should get domain spells. I think it's unbalanced when compared to other classes, and is due to a loophole caused by wording.
That said, the reasoning why they do is in the way that the Domain class feature is specifically worded:
Each domain grants a number of domain powers, dependent upon the level of the cleric, as well as a number of bonus spells. A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up.
Unlike a Bloodline, which states that you gain spells when you advance in level as a Sorcerer, a Cleric's domain text states that gaining the domain spells is based off of the highest level Cleric spell that the Cleric can cast, rather than the levels in the class he has.
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With that said, I'm not certain that you actually gain the additional Domain spells known. The 'loophole' in the wording that allows you to gain the additional domain spell slots would not (IMO) apply to learning the actual new spells - so technically if you were a 1st level Cleric, you would know the 1st level spell(s) granted by your domain(s), and could prepare them in multiple slots, but you wouldn't know any domain spells beyond that.
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2) "Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are NOT spells..." (Emphasis added by me) Since spell-like abilities are not spells I would say that Aasimar and tiefling's Daylight and Darkness do not allow entry into MT.
There's recently been an FAQ that they not only count as spells for qualifying for PrCs, but also for feats that require the ability to cast a spell as a prerequisite.
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As a PrC based on the gathering of and application of magical knowledge and spells, it seems very crippling that spells known would work like that, and even more silly that some class features do advance while others do not.
I can understand wanting to restrict things as a general rule for the caster/martial hybrids, and not growing their power overly much. However, as a theurge i am primarily a spellcaster. I spend every waking hour of my character's life learning about, thinking about, reading into and applying magical knowledge and spells. Perhaps an errata/change for MT could be made to allow spell acquisition. I just find it frustrating that because other hybrids can be overpowered, MT gets handicapped in a major way.
It is worth noting, that prepared casters don't have it nearly as easy as you make it sound though. They loose their automatic spells gained at each level, and witches loose their patron spells.
Forgot to mention that part, yeah. An MT who is a prepared caster will find herself spending a lot of time buying scrolls and spending a lot of money on increasing her spell book.
As a PrC based on the gathering of and application of magical knowledge and spells, it seems very crippling that spells known would work like that, and even more silly that some class features do advance while others do not.
I should state that my overall complaint is not with whether or not domain\bloodline\mystery spells advance; it's more with the inconsistency. I would prefer that it either advances spells gained through alternative class features for all classes, or for no classes.
Have you tried building your idea in Hero Lab to see what it allows you to do?
Have you tried building your idea in Hero Lab to see what it allows you to do?
While I love Hero Lab, it's not an official Paizo product, and it does contain a lot of rules mistakes and does not always quickly incorporate new FAQ rulings*. Even though it's a solid program, I would never suggest basing the validity of a game mechanic on how Hero Lab handles it.
*For example, as of the last update it did not include the FAQ rule allowing racial SLAs to qualify you for PrCs\feats\etc. So if he tried to use an Aasimar\Tiefling or some other combination to qualify Hero Lab wouldn't currently allow it.
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Have you tried building your idea in Hero Lab to see what it allows you to do?While I love Hero Lab, it's not an official Paizo product, and it does contain a lot of rules mistakes and does not always quickly incorporate new FAQ rulings*. Even though it's a solid program, I would never suggest basing the validity of a game mechanic on how Hero Lab handles it.
*For example, as of the last update it did not include the FAQ rule allowing racial SLAs to qualify you for PrCs\feats\etc. So if he tried to use an Aasimar\Tiefling or some other combination to qualify Hero Lab wouldn't currently allow it.
Yes I do use hero lab, and I am aware of its limitations when it comes to building characters.
I am very aware of what the character class can and cannot do. Currently my highest PFS character is a 3/3/1 cleric/wizard/theurge that is an Aasimari diplomat from Goka in Tian Xia. In all honesty, since early 3.5 I have enjoyed playing the class, and I do notice the many changes and advances that Pathfinder has done for it. However the inconsitancies that are pointed out here frustrate me as a player. Granted, i think at last check my character has something like 75+ spells/SLAs.
I guess my arguement is thematically, a Mystic Theurge is a class that takes a great deal of discipline and devotion to the art of spellcasting. It would stand to reason that if it has to do with earning more spells, or casting spells, that specifically a MT should grow in that. But many of the rules because of how they are worded go against that. If they made blanket changes to the rules, I could see where other classes might gain too much power, but since it is the function of the class to cast spells, I dont see why it is unreasonable to expect that as part of the growth of this specific PrC to increase spell knowledge.
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I guess my arguement is thematically, a Mystic Theurge is a class that takes a great deal of discipline and devotion to the art of spellcasting. It would stand to reason that if it has to do with earning more spells, or casting spells, that specifically a MT should grow in that.Or you could look at it as the mystic theurge devotes half as much time to devote to the art of arcane spell casting as a sorcerer, because really, what's the sorcerer doing in the time that the mystic theurge devotes to divine magic? He's studying arcane magic. So it makes sense that the sorcerer would have more knowledge of arcane magic, no?
He has knowledge of himself. remember sorcerers dont do rote learning, they are self discovering. A wizard is rote learning. and it stands to reason that you cannot increase your ability to cast magic without having magic to cast. Just my opinion of the class.
1) Xaratherus has the right of it with domain casting, domain spells (and oracle cure / inflict spells) become available automatically based on what spell levels you have access to. Bloodline (and mystery spells) however, only become available based on class abilities and that relies on class level, not caster level.
Edit: I disagree with his edit that the cleric wouldn't gain additional spells known for the domain slots, domain spells are based on the slot available, not available at any particular class level.
Clerics don't have "spells known". Spells Known is a feature for spontaneous casters, and clerics are not spontaneous casters.
Likewise they do not have a spellbook and never need to "learn" spells. Even if they did have a spellbook like wizards do they could have simply hired someone to let them copy the spell or bought a scroll of the spell they wanted to learn. Wizards have no limit on the number of spells they can "know," aside from the size of their spellbooks.
Clerics simply get a list of spells as their class list and may prepare any spells from the list. Their Domain adds spells to this overall list if they were not on the list to begin with. The domain slots can only be filled with spells from their domain, but that has nothing to do with them "knowing" the spells.
Spells known as a sorcerer should be the same regardless if you are a sorcerer7 or a cleric3/sorcerer4/MT3. There should be no distinction in this regard, nor in sorcerer caster level, nor in the sorcerer spell slots available to you.
Hmmm...
At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.
As you can see, the bloodline spells are distinct from a sorcerer's spells known.
When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly.
And, here, you can see that the MT increases spells known but not additional (bloodline) spells.
Again, bloodline spells are a subset of spells known. The Mystic Theurge has the spells known of a sorcerer7, and that includes the bloodline spells.
Despite the fact that their bloodline hasn't advanced to the point where it would normally offer it to them.
How does a bloodline advance?
By gaining levels in Sorcerer.
Until he achieves the requisite level in the Sorcerer class, can he cast the spells associated with his bloodline that require him to be of that level - in other words, are they part of his "spells known" until he achieves a Sorcerer level where his bloodline advances to grant them?
No.
Is "bloodline" listed as something advanced by MT? No.
Therefore, bloodline spells are not granted by Mystic Theurge. The class feature grants the spells as it advanced; it advances by the caster gaining levels in Sorcerer; a Mystic Theurge is not gaining levels in Sorcerer; therefore the bloodline does not advance and no additional spells are gained from it.
Actually I can see that bloodline spells are distinct from the table, but if you claim that bloodline spells are not spells known then the sorcerer cannot cast them.
"Spells Known" refers to spells the Sorcerer gains as per the table "Spells Known". Not the list of spells a specific Sorcerer knows. Otherwise Bloodline spells would eat into the Spells Known of a Sorcerer and you would be able to swap them out.
Bloodline is also a specific ability that as it advances grants feats, spells, an additional class skill, and special abilities. It doesn't logically follow that MT can advance only one aspect of Bloodline because availability of all of the features is dependent on Sorcerer Level.
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Sad state of affairs, is my thread got hijacked about the sorcerer spells again. And none of my MT builds ever involve sorcerer levels.Given that you talk about sorcerer bloodline spells and rather or not they advance in mystic theurge in the O.P. I don't think you can really say your thread got hijacked. A thread that is on topic is pretty much by definition not hijacked.
The main thing that I was trying to get at was that thematically in my mind if a character is going to increase their spellcasting ability to the exclusion of all other activities, such as a cleric/wizard theurge, it doesnt make any logical sense why they would not get their given new spells from things like spellbooks and familiars and whatnot. Not arguing the letter of the law on this one, very much believe that intent here is very different than the current RAW.
So your stance is two-fold:
1. Bloodline spells are not spells known.
Yes. Though, a sorcerer does (if you want to keep using that word) know them.
2. the table 'Spells known' is the sum total of all spells known for the sorcerer (your conclusion 'otherwise').
Is this a correct assessment?
Potentially yes, potentially the opposite. I'm referring to Spells Known as a specific progression, not spells a sorcerer has on their own list, or knows. I will word it differently for clarity.
Sorcerers have a table that displays how many spells they have obtained from their progression as a Sorcerer.They also have a class feature (Bloodline) that grants them a variety of features, one of which is spells, that is advanced by progressing as a Sorcerer.
Mystic Theurge says on the table "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class". It is then clarified below to mean
"When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly."
So, it does not actually count as Sorcerer class progression. Mystic Theurge progression adds to Sorcerer levels to determine your effective Sorcerer level for Spells per Day, Spells Known, and Caster Level. It does not add to your effective Sorcerer level for anything else. If it did then it could grant you spells off of the Bloodline feature, as well as feats and abilities.
From 1, if something were to give a spontaneous caster spells known then the mystic theurge advancing casting in that spontaneous casting class would grant those spells known, correct?
No. (That is far too broad to be accurate. 'Something' could be the Human Alternate Favored Class Bonuses, or Expanded Arcana, neither of which would be granted by MT.)
Moving on to the Bloodline ability, though. Bloodline grants features dependent on Sorcerer level. Some of these features are spells. They do not count against the Sorcerer's Spells Known, nor are they exchangeable as spells selected as Spells Known are. Advancing Spells Known will not grant Bloodline spells.
From 2, if something were to grant a spell as a spell known it would count against the number listed in that table. Is this also correct?
No, it would alter the table numbers, and therefore your progression (which you follow). It would not count against it.
If MT did advance bloodline spells why just the spells? Since the spells are part of the Bloodline package if you got one part of it you should get all of it. Why does only MT do this? The language on MT is identical to other caster PrC's so why aren't you advocating that other caster PrC's advance bloodline spells?
The PrC gives spells known, caster level, and spells per day. That would be why the PrC would advance just those.
The MT is not the ONLY one that does this, and I do advocate that other 'caster' PrCs advance spells known as they say that they do (the wording does slightly differ from one to another, though not as much as they did in 3.5.. I just don't have the time to write them all down.. in another thread I picked the arcane trickster by virtue of the alphabet and full casting advancement).
Oh, consistent. Very well.
As to your original statement, you claimed a few things:
1. If bloodline spells were spells known that they would count against the number in the table. Do you retract this, or just not extend it to other ways that expressly spell it out in the phrase 'spells known'? I don't see the logical splitting that you are making here.
Yes, I claimed that. No, I do not retract it. If bloodline spells were part of the Spells Known (the tabled progression) a Sorcerer got, they would count against them. Instead, they are additional spells that are gained when a Sorcerer reaches set levels (in Sorcerer).
The split is simple: Sorcerers have "Spells Known", a feature that is tabled and indicates what levels spells a Sorcerer has on their list. They know every spell on their own list. They also have "Bloodline", a feature that grants additional spells as they level up as a Sorcerer to their own list. These spells are decidedly not part of the tabled progression of Spells Known but the Sorcerer still knows them. Bloodline adds spells to a Sorcerer's personal list of spells known but that doesn't mean that adding to Spells Known adds bloodline spells.
2. Why wouldn't say mysteries that expressly grant spells known have those spells known granted to the MT (or arcane trickster, et al) that expressly gain the spells known? Certainly if you also leveled in Oracle then you would, indeed, gain these spells known. Certainly they are spells known. This seems to decidedly and unequivocally fit the RAW.
Expressly grant spells known?
At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, an oracle learns an additional spell derived from her mystery. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table 2–6.
It expressly says 'in addition to' Table 2–6[:Spells Known] and are gained by advancing in that class.
The bonus spells in both cases are part of a class level dependent feature.
If the way you think it worked was correct then the wording on Dragon Disciple would be redundant. As is, it specifically mentions that a Sorcerer would gain those bonus spells when he can cast them (because DD advances Bloodline). If it worked like you posit then the Sorcerer would, as default, know those spells at the appropriate level and there would be no need to specify that he gains them.
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There is a set of mechanics that fit what I like to call the "thematic casting" parameters. For prepared casters, this is represented by gaining spells per day that can only hold specific spells (like domain spells for clerics, or school spell slots for wizard) and by the occasional spontaneous casting feature (like cure spells for clerics or summon nature's ally for druids). For spontaneous casters this is represented by additional spells known (like bloodline spells for sorcerers, or cure/inflict and mystery spells for oracles). In other words, casting features that, for that class, feel like an inherent and irrevocable part of what flavors their entire approach to casting, as represented by the nudge they provide in the choice of what spells you prepare or know.
In my mind, any feature that fits the above parameters of "thematic casting" should advance with the "+1 existing level of spellcaster". While RAW and RAI are both quite clear on the matter, myself (and evidently others) feel that either all of the thematic casting benefits should advance or none should. This means that if clerics can spontaneously cast cure critical despite only have 5 real cleric levels and still get domain slots at higher level as well, then sorcerers should get their bloodline spells (but, of course, no bonus feats or powers therefrom). The alternative being to strip advancement of domain spells and spontaneous casting from clerics.
The situation with wizards and witches not gaining their free spells from leveling feels lazy, poorly thought out, and downright unfair to me. Every other casting class can at least function properly in a no-assumptions environment when advanced via prestige classes, but for whatever reason wizards and witches get boned. I understand that the emphasis is on base classes, but so long as prestige classes remain an option they should be an option that is at least remotely reasonable in its interpretations. I feel like there is neither a thematic nor a balance reason why advancement of casting abilities would not include learning new spells.
What I believe the OP was asking is: What is the motivating factor behind the current state of RAW and RAI? Why is it that wizard spells don't advance, whether thematically speaking or with respect to balance? Why is it that it isn't okay for bloodline spells to advance, but it is okay for domain spells to do so?
TL;DR - RAW and RAI say what they say, but it's inconsistent and (in some cases) outright unfair. The question is, why are the developers okay with this from a thematic and balance standpoint, to the point that they repeatedly reaffirm the current state of affairs.
No, it is not redundant. It grants them earlier than normal. A sorcerer5/DD2 would gain the spell fly as a spell known, but without the blood of dragons ability they would not gain the spell until they were an effective sorcerer7 at sorcerer5/DD3.
I was trying to say that the wording implies that they gain the ability for the first time and otherwise would not get it. The exact level is ancillary.
So an oracle with the Blackened or Haunted curses that 'add' specific spells to your spells known, would count against the numbers in the table? Or would they add to those numbers?
They are additional spells, they don't count against. The number in the table doesn't change. Basically it comes down to your list of spells known vs Sorcerer (tabled) Spells Known, where your list is inevitably bigger as other features add to it.
What do you claim that the human sorcerer favored class actually does?
Okay, this one I actually hate the wording of. Given that the Wizard and Witch get "Add one spell from the <class> spell list to the <class's> <personal list>." you'd think it would be "Add one spell from the sorcerer spell list to your list of spells known". Instead, we get "Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list". As far as I can tell this is the only thing worded this way. This ability would increase the table numbers. Since your progression follows that table you get more spells.
You are aware of the feat Expanded Arcana, so you cannot claim that the table of 'Spells known' is a hard capped number. So why would it apply as a cap should bloodline spells be considered spells known?
I can't claim it's a hard capped number because of Alternative Racial Traits. Expanded Arcana uses the normal language "Add one spell from your class’s spell list to your list of spells known. This is in addition..." That's fine, it modifies your list. I guess since it's not a class feature you can't advance this but it's still inconsistent.
@StabbittyDoom: Bloodlines are flavoured as a package that scales with Sorcerer power and spells are part of the package, so they don't advance with PrC's. Domains are also a package but the spells are basically equivalent to the Bloodline Power, without the scaling power flavour, so they advance. As to whether or not I think they should advance? Mmmh, if Bloodline was worded differently or nicely divided, sure. But it's tied to all the other features and it just doesn't make sense to hand out the bonus spells but nothing else.
The removal of spells gained by levelling to the witch and wizard is meant to encourage them to single class and to stop them accruing tonnes of features without losing any spellcasting ability.
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@StabbittyDoom: Bloodlines are flavoured as a package that scales with Sorcerer power and spells are part of the package, so they don't advance with PrC's. Domains are also a package but the spells are basically equivalent to the Bloodline Power, without the scaling power flavour, so they advance. As to whether or not I think they should advance? Mmmh, if Bloodline was worded differently or nicely divided, sure. But it's tied to all the other features and it just doesn't make sense to hand out the bonus spells but nothing else.
I am perfectly aware of the status quo. My argument was that the status was sub-optimal as it discouraged certain builds for no discernible balance reason.
The removal of spells gained by levelling to the witch and wizard is meant to encourage them to single class and to stop them accruing tonnes of features without losing any spellcasting ability.
If this were possible then the problem would be with the prestige class overall, not the "+1 existing level of spellcaster" feature. If it's balanced that sorcerers get new spells known, then it's balanced for witches and wizards to get their equivalent thereof.
Besides, witches and wizards are precisely the classes that can get around said limitations given time and a bit of gold, making the "anti-powergamer" sort of argument worthless. My argument is that this rule accomplishes nothing more than adding a hidden "gotcha" to any attempt to take a prestige class for wizards and witches for the regular player.
As an example of this ruling going awry, the Winter Witch prestige class is one designed explicitly for Witches, and no-one else. Theoretically there should be no hidden balance issues as the scope of its usage exists entirely within a single class. However, a character choosing this supposedly custom-tailored prestige class would quickly find that they aren't learning any new spells as they level within it as it makes no exception to the "no free spells known" rule.
While you may say that the intent was to allow said spells to be learned on level-up, that is not what is written by RAW and the same wording used therein is the wording declared to deny you your free spells known in other prestige classes. This means that if RAI is for Winter Witch to get those spells then the design team would really need to get their s&*# together. (It wouldn't be the first time, however; I'm looking at you, "Racial Heritage" ruling!)
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If this were possible then the problem would be with the prestige class overall, not the "+1 existing level of spellcaster" feature. If it's balanced that sorcerers get new spells known, then it's balanced for witches and wizards to get their equivalent thereof.
Excuse me? You really think that not learning a new spell but being capable to buy, develop or steal it is the same thing that being unable to learn new spells unless you spend a feat to get one?
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Besides, witches and wizards are precisely the classes that can get around said limitations given time and a bit of gold, making the "anti-powergamer" sort of argument worthless. My argument is that this rule accomplishes nothing more than adding a hidden "gotcha" to any attempt to take a prestige class for wizards and witches for the regular player.As an example of this ruling going awry, the Winter Witch prestige class is one designed explicitly for Witches, and no-one else. Theoretically there should be no hidden balance issues as the scope of its usage exists entirely within a single class. However, a character choosing this supposedly custom-tailored prestige class would quickly find that they aren't learning any new spells as they level within it as it makes no exception to the "no free spells known" rule.
While you may say that the intent was to allow said spells to be learned on level-up, that is not what is written by RAW and the same wording used therein is the wording declared to deny you your free spells known in other prestige classes. This means that if RAI is for Winter Witch to get those spells then the design team would really need to get their s&*# together. (It wouldn't be the first time, however; I'm looking at you, "Racial Heritage" ruling!)
Winter WitchcraftLevels of the winter witch prestige class stack with witch levels for determining when she learns new hexes, the effect of her hexes and other witch class abilities (including archetype abilities), the abilities of her witch's familiar, and the level at which she can select major hexes or grand hexes.
What is one of the witch class abilities?
Witch's Familiar (Ex): At 1st level, a witch forms a close bond with a familiar, a creature that teaches her magic and helps to guide her along her path. Familiars also aid a witch by granting her skill bonuses, additional spells, and help with some types of magic. This functions like the wizard's arcane bond class feature, except as noted in the Witch's Familiar section.A witch must commune with her familiar each day to prepare her spells. Familiars store all of the spells that a witch knows, and a witch cannot prepare a spell that is not stored by her familiar. A witch's familiar begins play storing all of the 0-level witch spells plus three 1st-level spells of the witch's choice. The witch also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to her Intelligence modifier to store in her familiar. At each new witch level, she adds two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new witch level) to her familiar. A witch can also add additional spells to her familiar through a special ritual (see sidebar).
Oh, look, Winter Witchcraft say that your familiar abilities increase and that the level at which your existing witch abilities work increase.
As it is the familiar that give the witch his spells and his abilities increase, the witch get new spells with every level of winter witch.|
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If this were possible then the problem would be with the prestige class overall, not the "+1 existing level of spellcaster" feature. If it's balanced that sorcerers get new spells known, then it's balanced for witches and wizards to get their equivalent thereof.Excuse me? You really think that not learning a new spell but being capable to buy, develop or steal it is the same thing that being unable to learn new spells unless you spend a feat to get one?
Please do not misunderstand my opinion. My opinion is not that workaround is of equal merit, my opinion is that the root issue is of equal merit.
In other words, I feel that getting the ability to cast a couple new spells the moment you level is equivalent. I do NOT feel, nor would I ever endeavor to imply, that a spell known and a new spell in a spell book are of equal difficulty to acquire.
I find it deplorable that I have to defend the idea that a wizard->(prestige) who hits 9th character level should be able to immediately utilize their ability to cast 5th level spells without first having to purchase additional, consumable equipment.
Another way to state this: If a prestige sorcerer can cast 5th level spells the moment they unlock that level of class feature, why can't a prestige wizard?
(the other stuff)
Okay, so another part of the Winter Witch class sidesteps the issue. My apologies. My point remains that any balance problem from witches/wizards getting their new spells would stand with the specific prestige class, not with the "+1 existing level of spellcasting".
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I find it deplorable that I have to defend the idea that a wizard->(prestige) who hits 9th character level should be able to immediately utilize their ability to cast 5th level spells without first having to purchase additional, consumable equipment.
You are aware that:
1) it always possible to fill higher level slots with lower level spells, so the 9th level spellcaster ha spells for his 5th level spell slots even if he hasn't learned any new spells?
and that, more important,
2) it is possible to write spells in your spellbook even if you are unable to cast those spells (same thing for a witch familiar)?
It is a very simple spellcraft check. Nowhere it require you to be capable to cast those spells.
The issues you see are clearly and neatly resolved applying the existing the rules, so I fail to see what is the problem.
If it's balanced that sorcerers get new spells known, then it's balanced for witches and wizards to get their equivalent thereof.
Sorcerer's have a limited Spells Known, Wizards do not. Sorcerers have useful level dependent class features, Wizards don't. If a Sorcerer didn't get Spells Known he would not get any more spells. If a Wizard didn't get any he could spend WBL to get them anyway. Sorcerers also have the slower progression. It's not balanced for one if the other gets it because they're mechanically different.
Besides, witches and wizards are precisely the classes that can get around said limitations given time and a bit of gold, making the "anti-powergamer" sort of argument worthless. My argument is that this rule accomplishes nothing more than adding a hidden "gotcha" to any attempt to take a prestige class for wizards and witches for the regular player.
It's not an anti-powergamer argument, the features that you can get typically aren't that powerful, it's just unfair to other classes that can't benefit from having their best feature advance while they get all sorts of new mechanics in their kit. Mechanically speaking, it's not all that much of a buff to give them their two spells but that's because Wizards already have a lot of stuff in their kit.
tl;dr: Giving Wizards a minor buff doesn't do much, but make their pedestal slightly taller.
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@Diego & Aioran: I have read and heard all of these arguments before (and yes I'm aware you can use higher slots for lower spells). IMO they miss the forest for the trees.
Yes, the Wizard and Witch can "patch" the issue by scribing books. Yes, this means they could theoretically land at the same spot. My question is: Why is it that the wizard and witch need to be dependent an on external factor (what is the shop selling; do I have enough gold; do I have time to scribe it; do I have ranks in spellcraft), but the sorcerers do not? The only argument I can see to support that would also require that the wizard and witch have to pay to scribe their stuff on ALL levels, not just prestige levels.
Yes, I'm aware that wizards and witches are already technically more powerful if used correctly, but that doesn't mean we can create a completely arbitrary restriction on their growth just because they decided that Loremaster was more interesting than more Wizard levels.
The only time those restrictions are effective is if the DM makes them effective, which in turn makes the DM have to play the role of bad guy. "Why doesn't the town have scrolls of Disintegrate?! Where can I get some? What do you mean that's 3 months out of the way and we only have 2 to beat the BBEG?"
Even if the DM is trying to be cooperative with it, it forces them to restructure the game to allow time and the availability of items in order to keep that character minimally normal. And if they do that, then why can't that same character just buy another 100 scrolls? Oops, now we've accidentally made the problem worse instead of better.
And what if the DM doesn't want to restructure? What if the game is supposed to take place entirely within a month, thus not allowing said time? Is he just supposed to say "tough s+*#" to that player? Make him give up his more thematically specific character (that he loves!) in favor of the generic one that, with respect to spells, does the exact same thing without requiring time and money? It would at least make sense to say "Sorry, wizards aren't good for this game because you don't have downtime", but to say "Sorry, loremaster wizards aren't okay due to downtime. Sorcerer loremasters? Yeah, those are fine." ? It just doesn't make sense.
The whole thing gets a lot simpler if you just give them their measly 2 spells on level-up via prestige classes so that everyone is on equal footing before the items are rolled out (well, from caster-to-caster anyway).
TL;DR - I've yet to hear a single convincing argument as to why regular wizard levels give free spells but prestige ones don't, outside of the appeal to authority of "the book/FAQ says so".
PS: Sorry for participating in a total thread derailing.
While I don't necessarily disagree with Stabbitty, I do want to point out that referring to the rules isn't really an appeal to authority. That implies that it is a fallacious argument, and it's not. The book is the 'perfect' authority on the matter; an 'appeal to authority' indicates that there might be another authority somewhere else who says otherwise, and that's not true in this instance.
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While I don't necessarily disagree with Stabbitty, I do want to point out that referring to the rules isn't really an appeal to authority. That implies that it is a fallacious argument, and it's not. The book is the 'perfect' authority on the matter; an 'appeal to authority' indicates that there might be another authority somewhere else who says otherwise, and that's not true in this instance.
I was very careful not to call it a fallacy, though I realize now that it certainly implies that it is a fallacy. I apologize to those who may have been offended in thinking that I was making accusations. (EDIT: Appealing to the rules IS an appeal to an authority, but it is a valid one (i.e. non-fallacious). The names of fallacies often confuse people into thinking that those things are ALWAYS fallacies, but that is not true. For example: Ad Hominem is only fallacious if no other argument is provided. If you insult someone but ALSO counter their point, it is technically "Ad Hominem", but not a fallacy as it was not used as an argument.)
IMO, the rules exist to serve the game, and any case where that is not true the "authority" (in this case, rules) must be questioned. I argue that, in this case, the rules do not serve the game, and have asked my fellow posters if they can give a good "game" reason why the regular wizard progression gives its free spells but the prestige progression does not (despite giving sorcerers their progression). So far, the only reasons I've heard serve only as arguments against wizards gaining any free progression. I would prefer that all wizards gained the basic progression, but at least the "no free progression" interpretation is consistent. Also consistent would be denying both sorcerers AND wizards their progression, though that is obviously unfair to sorcerers who cannot buy their way into patching the hole and is thus an easy solution to discard.
Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice to add to his spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels he can cast. If he has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from his specialty school.
Because of the flavour. That's basically all there is to it. Wizards and Witches are flavoured as learning spells as they take levels in their respective classes. Sorcerers are (barely) flavoured as self-discovery types. That is why taking a PrC doesn't give you free spells, you didn't take levels in Wizard, you didn't do spell research.
The same old arguments about power levels/tier disparity from 3.5 are the answer as to why this was done.As to the issue of getting spells, magic marts are not the only way to provide spells.
I'm ambivalent as to the morality of the issue, though.
"Why doesn't the town have scrolls of Disintegrate?! Where can I get some? What do you mean that's 3 months out of the way and we only have 2 to beat the BBEG?"
Teleport is a 5th level spell. Assuming a character has 30ft base move and needs 3 months overland travel time that's 2160 miles. Disintegrate is a 6th level spell. Assuming a character is 11th that's 1100 miles per teleport. You have a minimum of two 5th level and one 6th level slot. That's 3300 miles per day. Two days and you're back with disintegrate. (Not that I would get it, that spell is bad)
If the DM doesn't want to accommodate the player he is already saying tough s##$. Not every character is going to be applicable to every game. The flavour of the Wizard requires downtime, if the DM runs a campaign that has none then of course the Wizard is going to have trouble. A Sorcerer doesn't require downtime and the GM doesn't change their flavour, then they are fine.
The whole thing gets a lot simpler if you just give them their measly 2 spells on level-up via prestige classes so that everyone is on equal footing before the items are rolled out (well, from caster-to-caster anyway).
Okay, this I agree with. None of this false dichotomy 'to magic mart, or not to magic mart'. Yes, it's simpler, it requires less book keeping because there's a whole rule just gone. Frankly, on this point alone I agree with you, I was just listing reasons as to why it is not the case.
PS: Sorry for participating in a total thread derailing.
Eh, OP has his question answered. I will say, though, since this isn't a rules issue there should probably be a new thread and everyone migrate over.