Hello all! This is my first post and first topic. Let me start by saying that I have been an avid roleplayer since the young age of 12 and I am 36 now. My humble origins in roleplaying began not as a fan of fantasy( although I was in fact just that), but my awe and wonder when I read books on mythology.
Now, what I envision and you envision when we think of our ideal fantasy RPG may be 2 seperate things, but I think its possible to agree on a few minor points:
1) Epic play should be a state in which the characters possess supreme mastery of their respective abilities, having no equal except other masters.
2) Mythic should be of a state from whence the word originates, mythology.An aptitude and a cut above mere mortals.
Now with that out of the way, let me present my most humble opinion. Some people regard epic level as anything beyond what is in a rpg's player handbook or core rules, but I would beg to differ. A wizard dreams of the mightiest spells, a fighter dreams of ultimate skill in battle, a cleric desires to fulfill his deity's will in the world, and a their seeks the greatist thrill ( examples) .
We already have this in the core rules and other class supplements. What spell could possibly be more powerful than a wish or to take on the abilities and form of others and strike them with meteors from the heavens? What fighter can attain more than 4 attacks per round and achieve weapon and armor mastery better without becoming the God of war himself? What priest could command the already godlike power of ressurection, divine storms, and miracles ? And what thief cannot attain all he desires with the awesome skills and capabilities of a level 20 thief?
Our definition of epic has become so outstanding and unweildy that it is commonplace to ask for more and more until the designers of our favorite game cave and give us what we want. But how often has it happened that by getting what we want, lose the playability of said system and have to wait for the next edition and fresh start, only to have the same happen again and again?
I hope epic never comes. We have what we need already. We have epic.
What I am most excited about is the new mythic adventures oppurtunity. We can finally play those heroes that got me in to gaming to begin with. Now before you say "If you want to play Hercules, Circe, The Oracle of Delphi, or Hermod ; play a fighter, wizard, cleric, or thief". Well I would be that as there is the small problem of all of them were born with abilities that can only be quantified as what is coming in Mythic Adventures. Hercules, Circe, The Oracle of Delphi, and Hermod were all born not as high level members of their respective classes, but a completely different state of existence. They had to learn their crafts despite their natural greatness.
In closing, these are only my opinions and not my need to change anyone's view of the topics at hand. I hope, however that you can trust in the vision that the designers have for us and that, maybe I helped you see things in a different light so you might enjoy this new direction for Pathfinder as I no doubt will.
I wish all of you a wonderful day and eons of exciting and wondrous adventures.
Happy gaming :)
Define what you will however you will, but this game already has a very specific definition of what "epic" is. Simply put it's gameplay beyond 20th level. Nothing more, nothing less. Just like "grappled", the term is what it is.
Paizo has been working on the "mythic" rules to introduce more power or abilities in a cinematic fashion that doesn't allow for 21st-level clerics and so on.
So I'm not sure what your argument is. Epic is epic, mythic does something different, Paizo's not working on epic but they are on mythic. What's the issue?
Um, I didn't have an argument or issue. I had definitions and opinions as the title of the thread states. And I respect the fact that your opinion is beyond 20th level for epic play, however it is not mine.
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Um, I didn't have an argument or issue. I had definitions and opinions as the title of the thread states. And I respect the fact that your opinion is beyond 20th level for epic play, however it is not mine.
I think the point Anguish was making stands: the term "epic" already has a specific definition is, in a nutshell, "play at 21st level and beyond." The term was given this definition by WotC during the 3rd edition of D&D and it has been carried forward to Pathfinder by general consensus. You can try to give it your own definition, but I doubt you'll get much traction.
Welcome to the boards!
-Skeld
Okay I see your points. Truelly I do, but my point seems to be misinterpreted. I played dnd and converted my mage to 3rd edition and eventually when epic came out, I was stoked.You see I only ever played one character and with such focus he was level 30 after 24 years of play on a weekly basis (high level handbook 2nd ed).
Now initially I was salivating at all the power the epic level handbook promised such a well established character. I admit I even talked with my dm about playing him as a God. He went on many adventures and did many things which at the time I was proud of, but looking back am no longer. I won't bore you with the details but lets just say I was a powergamer and that book made all my dreams come true to the point where one day I woke up and said it had gotten out of hand.
The time had come to deny the existence of the one character I promised myself I would always have and be proud of but to my own ambition, completely ruined because I had to have more. What I was trying to accomplish was that mythic vibe but I let epic get in my head and as a result, lost my way in that regard.
I don't know. In my post I was giving my opinions when maybe others haven't had the same bad experience with epic that I have and maybe my opinions might not matter to anyone since many do stop at lvl 10 or so. I don't have a sweet spot when it comes to retirement of characters and I get attached and keep seeing new directions for a character to go and grow in.
All I was trying to say was I am excited about trying Mythic and I think it might be the scope I was looking for all along. I see it as pretty damn innovative and at the same time, a balance between my love of mythology and not going overboard as was the case with my wizard. I'm actually thinking about a mythic warrior of sorts as I am tired of wizards now.
Anyhow, let me apologize for sounding how I sounded and to clear up the matter. I was actually curious about other folk's opinions as well and not just my own. The title was supposed to be an open invite to share your opinions and any definitions of what you had as well which is why I was a little vague about the point of the thread. I was trying, apparently unsuccessfully to evoke your musings and maybe give me some insight as well.
I understand that epic has been talked about by paizo as well as everyone else. I know people disagree with me on leaving it out. I haven't heard any reasons why they think it would be a good thing to bring it back and I am only wanting to hear their side to. I am and will never be an authority of the RPG realm but that's life.
Anyway, the point was I am happy to finally get the chance to play as a mythological hero for once. To ME it is very stimulating and along time overdue considering it was that influence that made me want to game to begin with.
Which is why I am retiring from the wizard class for awhile.Lol!
Well admittedly, the "build a mighty empire" is more of an Ultimate Campaign thing than Mythic, but I definitely agree with Lincoln Hills :)
Yeah that's about right. I remember becmi and still have it, well RC/ WOTI anyway. Iused to want to play an immortal so badly but after Ashardalon, Lolth, Night Below, Under the Dark Fist, and to many to even remember I think I am done with that aspect of the game. Immortals are way to powerful and I could barely handle a lowely wizard.Lol!
As for the kingdom thing, that's actually never been an interest of mine. Rulership scares me. I never wanted to start a character with even an ounce of noble blood as it just doesn't feel right. I don't want to feel entitled nor have responsibility for other people's lives. In game nor irl but I respect any who could handle it.
In my post I was giving my opinions when maybe others haven't had the same bad experience with epic that I have and maybe my opinions might not matter to anyone since many do stop at lvl 10 or so.
Didn't play Epic in 3E. Hate it when campaigns stop before they get past what I consider "mid level" (8th-12th).
Anyhow, let me apologize for sounding how I sounded and to clear up the matter. I was actually curious about other folk's opinions as well and not just my own.
I find Mythic looks like it will be its own breed. It will likely do me no good whatsoever for my Epic games (read as: post-20 play that does not involve any sort of godhood or ascension on the part of the PCs nor any form of incarna or deific sponsorship to make them “more than mortal”), but I will still pick it up to see what direction they take certain things in and to shamelessly pull ideas.
You indicated that you’ve been playing for a bit and played earlier editions and ask what could be better than a wish. I would submit that a 1E or 2E wish is far and above “better” (the restriction was the imagination of the player &/or gm). For Epic games, sometimes it’s about evoking and channeling some of the pageantry and power levels from yesteryears and focusing on something other than just bashing monsters and thinking of deities and avatars as bigger monsters – sometimes it’s about finding out the truths that few mortals know and being involved in the contentions between Powers without seeking to become one. What it is almost always about is investiture, though, because if you’ve played through long enough to hit an Epic level, you are likely to be far, far more invested in the character you are playing and every nuance about them then you will be with a <10th L character you’ve only been playing for a few years.
My $.02.
Others will likely have vastly different paired pennies.
-TimD
@TimD YES! My God how I do suck in expressing myself.Lol! You actually put in words what I was trying to do from the beginning about high level play and I am in complete agreement with EVERY response you posted.
You are right that I started with becmi with my magic user, then upgraded(?) to adnd 1e shortly thereafter. This only lasted 2 years as when I moved to an area that only played adnd 2nd edition had to switch again. As soon as 3rd and 3.5 came out I switched yet again. I did play my magic user/ mage / wizard as my sole PC only because for the longest time I enjoyed magic so much and that when my game group changed occasionally, I was lucky enough that I was the only player or they had PC's of similar level so I could continue playing said character.
Although I really need a break from wizards I still like them, but back to the point. You are right in that I have a adnd mindset after playing that for such a huge length of time. I guess you may be right that I think wish is still the same after all these years. I have reread them and see obvious difference now. I guess sometimes the mind sees what it wants to see.
I still like high level play that will never change but I also think there should be limits in some regard for any classes capabilities. I can't even watch dbz after Freiza saga because It becomes to over the top for even me. I used to think I was a power gamer because m?y sweet spot was around level 18 or so from the access to 9th level spells.
Let me be clear though to people that might misunderstand my love of magic all those years. I played one character in dnd but I have also played star frontiers, gamma world, rolemaster, marvel superheroes (faserip system), lords of creation,dangerous journeys, lord of the rings(coda system), scion/vampire/mage/werewolf (white wolf), DC RPG, rifts, star wars d20 and saga, and a few others. All the while in fantasy I always played the wizard. In some systems magic isn't that powerful and my choice was always wizard (see lotr coda for example). It was just my flavor.
I am glad that I am not the only one looking foreward to Myhtic. There has been a character idea that I have had for the longest time and I really want to get started :)