Meh, I'll probably build one soon anyway, just so that its clear enough and the pathfinder message board community knows what to houserule improve first.okay. i won't build the Monk Vs. Rogue build thread
but i think we need one to show, who stands up top between the two weakest classes in the game,
so that it doesn't need to end up taking over this one.
i will probably build a STR rogue that isn't another falchion wielding Half-Orc
though we should open up featured and uncommon races so the monk builds aren't at too much a disadvantage compared the to Half-Elf, Half-Orc, and Human STR Builds by means of being unable to find a fitting race.
we should also use the elite array the game is built upon of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10 and 8.
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What is someoe want a str based rogue?Really? I thought I was the only one who saw any possibility for STR. based rogues, hm, what if each class got skills equal to x+highest stat.
You could although I suspect the realism brigade would hunt you down with torches and pitchforks.
1.)If a mob hunts me with pitch forks and torches then I don a diguise and stealth my way in with pitch forks and torches with my massive monk disguise bonus from 2+WIS skills.
2.)Why are skills based of Intelligence entirely? How would your IQ of 140 help you learn to be strong enough to climb a mountain if you can't lift a 50 lbs weight? Or learn tumble past someone when you keep tripping over your own shoelaces?i will probably build a STR rogue that isn't another falchion wielding Half-Orc
though we should open up featured and uncommon races so the monk builds aren't at too much a disadvantage compared the to Half-Elf, Half-Orc, and Human STR Builds by means of being unable to find a fitting race.
we should also use the elite array the game is built upon of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10 and 8.
Name the rules and I'll post them on the thread. Name will be "Monk vs. Rogue, DPR Special Olympics."
How about rogue divides up into two classes. Rogue and Assassin.
Let both do trapfinding. The Assassin will be like the current rogue except better at combat. While the rogue will be the undisputed best skill monkey in the game, possibly a master of every skill with class features that allow him to make himself competent in combat. Lets say 75% fighter DPR plus in combat skill utility.
Basically I want a skill monkey rogue to give fullcasters a run for their money in complexity of play and combat options.
How about rogue divides up into two classes. Rogue and Assassin.
Let both do trapfinding. The Assassin will be like the current rogue except better at combat. While the rogue will be the undisputed best skill monkey in the game, possibly a master of every skill with class features that allow him to make himself competent in combat. Lets say 75% fighter DPR plus in combat skill utility.
Basically I want a skill monkey rogue to give fullcasters a run for their money in complexity of play and combat options.
I want Rogue to be gone because I hate the idea of having a "skill class." I would just fold Rogue and Fighter together into a single class that does martial combat and martial non-combat equally well, just as the wizard does arcane combat and arcane non-combat equally well, or the cleric with divine.
I really like the idea of a skill class. I want that to be a thing. Right now the best skill class is a bard.
They may well try but casters have some of the best defences around, spells!
What do you think I use? Skills?
I have enemies strip spells off or counter them. They do so in a coordinated manner.
The enemy wizard will send planar assassins specifically to take out the party wizard or healer. Or the enemy will scry and fry the party caster. Part of the PCs job becomes "defend the caster."
Teleport in out of nowhere. Dimensional Anchor the party wizard. Then proceed to direct every attack his way. See how long he can stand up.
That's why I don't worry about the caster-martial disparity. Organized groups can deal with it. I use organized groups against my PCs. They don't just get to do scry and die or summon a ton of creatures on others. They get to experience these tactics and their counters used against them.
How does the party feel when they have to deal with scry or die? Not real good. Or when the sorcerer dragon is using quickened dispels to strip specific defenses so that when it attacks, the creature feels the full impact of the attack.
Action economy is very hard to deal with when a single creature attacks, but casters not so much.
Do please take note of how these anti-caster defenses rely on being a caster yourself, or emulating the abilities of a caster to such a degree that you might as well be a caster and stop pretending.
You dont need to have a caster to take out the other side caster. Any monster that flys can make a bee Line for the caster and if they have even a small amount of intelligence they would. Monsters that can tunnel ,like Earth elementals and Purple wurms , or dematerialize, like some undead, can also make a straight line for Wizards. Have a Rogue hide in the shadows And backstab the caster when his friends attack the party from the front( And most Goblinoids and Kobolds make decent rogues). Give the bad guys throwing weapons like javelins and axes and have them toss them at the Wizard as they run forward, not to mention have those armed with bows and crossbows target the Wizard first.. Have a large strong mob like a Troll or an Ogre bull rush past the melee types to get into melee range of the Wizard.Have large monsters like Giants and hydras or those armed with reach weapons go over the fighter types to attack the Casters.
And although Caster do have defensive spells, those spells have to be cast and take up a spell slot that could be used for an offensive spell and dont last forever. You start making the Caster take a lot of defensive spells and their power goes down.Most Monster that are even semi Intelligent know
Casters need to go down Fast and hard and will go gunning for them.
The enemy wizard will send planar assassins specifically to take out the party wizard or healer. Or the enemy will scry and fry the party caster. Part of the PCs job becomes "defend the caster."
How does the party feel when they have to deal with scry or die? Not real good.
Now, this may seem like a weird question... but is that supposed to be fun? I've never found scry and die or hiring assassins very fun to do ingame. Setting up a Xanatos gambit type thing maybe, but is that really supposed to be fun for your players? "Oh, you died last night in your sleep from scry and die. Reroll! GG guys, GG!" doesn't sound fun to me.
You dont need to have a caster to take out the other side caster. Any monster that flys can make a bee Line for the caster and if they have even a small amount of intelligence they would. Have a Rogue hide in the shadows And backstab the caster when his friends attack the party from the front( And most Goblinoids and Kobolds make decent rogues).
Most Monster that are even semi Intelligent know
Casters need to go down Fast and hard and will go gunning for them.
But how do they know who the caster is until; after the 1st turn and he starts casting spells?
Metagame?
Depends -- I've seen people on these boards claim that ninja characters are required to wear black pajamas, and wizards are required to wear robes with stars and stuff on them, or else the player is "playing wrong" and "trying to be disruptive" and will get kicked out of said game!
That said, my wizard Remy always wore a Musketeer's outfit and sword he never used, just in hopes that all intelligent adversaries wouldn't immediately attack en masse in every encounter.
(Disclaimer: at high levels, in my experience, the "second round" is largely moot, since the game is pretty much rocket tag at that point.)
Am I a bad person for not turning the game into a Paranoia? Never been a big fan of making everyone go out of the way to protect themselves.
Am I a bad person for not turning the game into a Paranoia? Never been a big fan of making everyone go out of the way to protect themselves.Do your characters wear armor? Have dex for touch attacks? Shields? Cloaks of resistances?
How is that any difference than this?
The difference is I don't threaten wizards spell breaks, sunder, kill people in the night, scry and die, or any of the things that leads to people going out of the way to create their character around self protection. A fighter wearing armor is pretty normal(and probably expected...), but the fighter carrying a holy symbol to look like a cleric specifically so they don't target the cleric is going out of the way.
That make sense? Its not like I tell them its okay to go naked. Its probably for the best I don't tell everyone to get naked.
my players would be annoyed if all of their opponents used inferior tactics.
Mine would be annoyed if I CdG'd them in their sleep, despite it being an optimal tactic. YMMV.
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During an active adventure, with adversaries potentially aware of them, my PCs tend to sleep in magnificent mansions, rope tricks, or preferrably on other planes of existence via plane shift. In a pinch, at lower levels, a room with the doors firmly spiked and people set on watch will do. It's like the main character in Munich sleeping in closets through force of habit.
Beds are for in-between adventures after you neutralize all the active threats. And if you're killed while passed out naked and drunk in the common room of an inn, it was probably worth it.
I've set houserules on quite a number of them so its not necessary to pretzel one's mind to explain why nobody is doing this.
You set houserules, I set houserules, life goes on. In other news, "I don't understand how casters are better..."
Casters can solve more problems a limited number of times per day with their lower level slots
because outside of stuff like buffs and essentials like glitterdust, there is little that matters with lower level slots at higher levels
basically, that slot you would devote to scorching ray, becomes quickly overshadowed in usefulness when you could instead use that slot for see invisibility or glitterdust to help point out the flying invisible caster.
while scorching ray may have dealt big damage at 3rd-4th level when you chose it
past 8th, you must have access to glitterdust, see invisibility, fly, and haste if you wish to make your 3rd level or lower spells useful. those are the absolute minimum for an 8th level arcane caster. even bards can do most of that. if you may also contribute grease or infernal healing. then you have secured yourself further.
You dont need to have a caster to take out the other side caster. Any monster that flys can make a bee Line for the caster and if they have even a small amount of intelligence they would. Have a Rogue hide in the shadows And backstab the caster when his friends attack the party from the front( And most Goblinoids and Kobolds make decent rogues).
Most Monster that are even semi Intelligent know
Casters need to go down Fast and hard and will go gunning for them.But how do they know who the caster is until; after the 1st turn and he starts casting spells?
Metagame?
Simple. Anyone who goes into a dangerous area and is not wearing armor is either a caster or an easy kill..
Might also our main Gm uses a Fame system. The Higher your level the more people are likely to recognize you.. Unless you do something to hide who you are. A Wizard , or any other High level Character is going to be as famous as Rockstar or gunslingers in the Old West.So your 10 level Wizard is going to be as Famous as Wyatt Earp and as recognizable .
You dont need to have a caster to take out the other side caster. Any monster that flys can make a bee Line for the caster and if they have even a small amount of intelligence they would. Have a Rogue hide in the shadows And backstab the caster when his friends attack the party from the front( And most Goblinoids and Kobolds make decent rogues).
Most Monster that are even semi Intelligent know
Casters need to go down Fast and hard and will go gunning for them.But how do they know who the caster is until; after the 1st turn and he starts casting spells?
Metagame?Simple. Anyone who goes into a dangerous area and is not wearing armor is either a caster or an easy kill..
Might also our main Gm uses a Fame system. The Higher your level the more people are likely to recognize you.. Unless you do something to hide who you are. A Wizard , or any other High level Character is going to be as famous as Rockstar or gunslingers in the Old West.So your 10 level Wizard is going to be as Famous as Wyatt Earp and as recognizable .
or they could be
a character wearing Glamered Armor
or be trying to do something like fit a suit of light armor or a suit of mithril medium armor beneath a baggy robe or something. something you can do if your clothes are baggy enough.
or they could even be a barbarian wearing a hat of disguise to fool his enemies
Am I a bad person for not turning the game into a Paranoia? Never been a big fan of making everyone go out of the way to protect themselves.
There a difference from running a game where players have to be paranoid and one where the monster use their brains. My Inns are safe. Most cities have laws that if you obey you will not have any trouble.Most merchants provide an honest service.
But my monster use their brains in combat. Bunching up invites things like sleep spells and fireballs. Having a few low level grunts attack in the first wave and see what you are up against is a good idea.. having a giant grab and toss the Dwarf in plate into the nearby pond works wonders on getting him out of the fight.. If some one has a Staff or Wand , firing a Musket ball into his direction is a pretty good idea.
Am I a bad person for not turning the game into a Paranoia? Never been a big fan of making everyone go out of the way to protect themselves.There a difference from running a game where players have to be paranoid and one where the monster use their brains. My Inns are safe. Most cities have laws that if you obey you will not have any trouble.Most merchants provide an honest service.
But my monster use their brains in combat. Bunching up invites things like sleep spells and fireballs. Having a few low level grunts attack in the first wave and see what you are up against is a good idea.. having a giant grab and toss the Dwarf in plate into the nearby pond works wonders on getting him out of the fight.. If some one has a Staff or Wand , firing a Musket ball into his direction is a pretty good idea.
how does the giant pick up the armored dwarf and toss him so far?
targeting the pond square has an AC of 5
the giant would require the throw anything feat. and then, he would have to grapple the dwarf (Dwarf gets +4 to CMD) and throw the dwarf, which is at -2 for every 10 feet the pond is away, uses the giant's lowest attack attribute, takes a -4 for nonproficiency if the giant didn't spend a feat. and can only go out to 5 increments or 50 feet.
the Giant's Rock throwing wouldn't apply to the dwarf, -1 for dex penalty, -1, -2 or -4 for size, and -4 for nonproficiency
Hill Giant throwing a dwarf has +1 to throw the dwarf 10 feet. throwing him 50 feet, invokes a -8 penalty, or net attack bonus of -7
I know my sorcerers wear a hat of disguise to look like a leather wearing rogue so enemies ignore him as an inconsequential threat.
Pretend to be a monk or rogue, can't get much more inconsequential than that!...Wait, how do they know the unarmored guy isn't a monk?
He isnt wearing pyjamas?
I thought those were ninjas? Now I'm just confused... Maybe that's the point!
discusses dwarf-tossing
Remember that if the target in question is missed he could use the splash weapon deviation chart to see where the... item would actually land. Assuming a large enough pond he would need to be a very bad shoot indeed to miss it.
my players would be annoyed if all of their opponents used inferior tactics.Mine would be annoyed if I CdG'd them in their sleep, despite it being an optimal tactic. YMMV.
Players that don't post watches when facing off against powerful evil enemies deserve to be CgD'd in their sleep.
The enemy wizard will send planar assassins specifically to take out the party wizard or healer. Or the enemy will scry and fry the party caster. Part of the PCs job becomes "defend the caster."How does the party feel when they have to deal with scry or die? Not real good.Now, this may seem like a weird question... but is that supposed to be fun? I've never found scry and die or hiring assassins very fun to do ingame. Setting up a Xanatos gambit type thing maybe, but is that really supposed to be fun for your players? "Oh, you died last night in your sleep from scry and die. Reroll! GG guys, GG!" doesn't sound fun to me.
Yes. It is fun. My players take extra precautions to shield themselves from scrying like private sanctum and mind blank. They post quality watches and think about where they camp. They buy extra armor to sleep in, so they aren't unarmored when they are beset.
I design the encounters so they have a chance. An evil bad guy has limited resources as well. If I'm doing scry and die or the like, they send those enemies they can spare and they think have a reasonable chance.
Part of my job as a DM is to make the world dangerous and to play the enemies as proactively working against the PCs. That means I design encounters not to kill them, but challenge them.
It wouldn't be fun if I were sending scry and die encounters that actually killed them. Just like it wouldn't be very fun for them if they were able to actually use scry and die tactics against the big bad evil guys. It's one of the reasons I've never had problems with scrying. At high level it rarely works as planned for either side.
Don't you know that you are suppose to send generic monsters with a low will save clumped together at the party?
All this DM fiat must annoy your players, because casters are unstoppable God monster unless the DM is cheating.
Players that don't post watches when facing off against powerful evil enemies deserve to be CgD'd in their sleep.
Your bias is showing. The players' characters deserve to be killed in their sleep. The players themselves do not.
Players that don't post watches when facing off against powerful evil enemies deserve to be CgD'd in their sleep.Your bias is showing. The players' characters deserve to be killed in their sleep. The players themselves do not.
No, he had it right. Anyone facing powerful enemies should be well guarded during their weakest hours. :P
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Well I have read every single post in this thread and I have to thank everyone in this thread for pointing out the error of my ways!
First, I will have to tell the players of our barbarian and fighter to stop smiling and laughing after a particularly successful full attack. Don't they understand? Full attacks are boring and no fun! Stop enjoying yourself!
The player of the wizard with a high level of system mastery needs to stop setting up the battles for the martials to win. He needs to just start winning them himself and then tell the rest of the party they need to rest when he is low on spells. Or I guess he could let them do something as long as they understand they are just the janitorial staff and aren't supposed to be having fun.
The wizard should stop buffing the rogue to scout (Yes, we have a player that plays an actual rogue! Gasp with horror!) and the cleric should stop buffing the fighter to fight. They should just buff themselves because they would be so much better at scouting and fighting!
Yep, I guess we are doing it wrong. When we make characters we think of the type of character we want to play, then we use the rules to make the character we want. Instead we should be looking at which classes are the most powerful and just play those!
Oh, and "Rules Bloat" is a thing. It is real. Things like Paragon Surge and Blood Money really prove this point. The more you introduce, the more likely you break something. We stick to Core and APG. But I know that doesn't fix anything, because you are supposed to allow everything and then complain about how Pathfinder is broken and sucks!
Oh, and "Rules Bloat" is a thing. It is real. Things like Paragon Surge and Blood Money really prove this point. The more you introduce, the more likely you break something. We stick to Core and APG. But I know that doesn't fix anything, because you are supposed to allow everything and then complain about how Pathfinder is broken and sucks!
CoDzilla was in core 3.5 and is probably one of the worst offenders, and tome of battle was a splatbook that had more interesting and viable martial options in it.
I don't know if your making a joke, sarcastic, or being serious...
I'm offended! You sir, maliciously insult my chosen playstyle!
Not all new rules are bad, but the more you have the greater the chance that some unexpected combination breaks things.
I was being sarcastic, and hopefully someone will find it funny (I find it funny) but I understand that my humor can come off as a bit snide sometimes. My wife has forbid me from replying on Facebook. My comments on what people just ate or their kids latest accomplishments tend to get me in trouble. I just click the "Like" button now.
But seriously, do people really have that much trouble with casters? I am the main GM for my group and the main balance with casters is casters. Does this prove that casters are "the best"? Maybe, but everyone still has fun.
The casters throw spells back and forth and then the bad guy runs out of hit points and dies. Would the "mere mortals" have died without their primary casters? Probably, but who cares? If my bad guys consist of a wizard and some mooks, then four primary casters will overwhelm the evil wizard and win. But a balanced party will also overwhelm the evil wizard and win. Whether the bad guy drops from the forth Save or Die or a hail of arrows or a charging barbarian is irrelevant. He's still dead and fun was had by all.
So please tell me how I am playing this wrong?
Well I have read every single post in this thread and I have to thank everyone in this thread for pointing out the error of my ways!
First, I will have to tell the players of our barbarian and fighter to stop smiling and laughing after a particularly successful full attack. Don't they understand? Full attacks are boring and no fun! Stop enjoying yourself!
The player of the wizard with a high level of system mastery needs to stop setting up the battles for the martials to win. He needs to just start winning them himself and then tell the rest of the party they need to rest when he is low on spells. Or I guess he could let them do something as long as they understand they are just the janitorial staff and aren't supposed to be having fun.
The wizard should stop buffing the rogue to scout (Yes, we have a player that plays an actual rogue! Gasp with horror!) and the cleric should stop buffing the fighter to fight. They should just buff themselves because they would be so much better at scouting and fighting!
I really like this part. Pretty much how I feel about all 7 of these threads.
Well I have read every single post in this thread and I have to thank everyone in this thread for pointing out the error of my ways!
First, I will have to tell the players of our barbarian and fighter to stop smiling and laughing after a particularly successful full attack. Don't they understand? Full attacks are boring and no fun! Stop enjoying yourself!
The player of the wizard with a high level of system mastery needs to stop setting up the battles for the martials to win. He needs to just start winning them himself and then tell the rest of the party they need to rest when he is low on spells. Or I guess he could let them do something as long as they understand they are just the janitorial staff and aren't supposed to be having fun.
The wizard should stop buffing the rogue to scout (Yes, we have a player that plays an actual rogue! Gasp with horror!) and the cleric should stop buffing the fighter to fight. They should just buff themselves because they would be so much better at scouting and fighting!
Yep, I guess we are doing it wrong. When we make characters we think of the type of character we want to play, then we use the rules to make the character we want. Instead we should be looking at which classes are the most powerful and just play those!
Oh, and "Rules Bloat" is a thing. It is real. Things like Paragon Surge and Blood Money really prove this point. The more you introduce, the more likely you break something. We stick to Core and APG. But I know that doesn't fix anything, because you are supposed to allow everything and then complain about how Pathfinder is broken and sucks!
Sarcastic and funny, love it :) LOL