The two campaign settings I keep seeing over and over again that people say they want more than anything else are Greyhawk and Dragonlance. I know enough about Dragonlance to know that I will never know enough about Dragonlance. But what is it about Greyhawk that people love? I've only had one campaign in there and let me be generous and say the GM wasn't very good. I've read the Expedition 3.5 mega-adventure and its good but I am not sure what I am missing. I spent most of my D&D gaming career in either homebrews or in FR.
So please tell me what you love about Greyhawk.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
First, nostalgia; it's mostly the first D&D setting, alots of spells bear the names of great GH wizards, many deities originate from this setting as well.
Other than that, what I like is that nothing is black or white, good nations may war one against the other for territory, ethnicity, and/or religious belief, it doesn't need to be always, fight the evil overlord.
Compared to the Forgotten Realms, it feels a little bit closer to medieval fantasy than high fantasy.
But I must say that I'm biased toward Greyhawk, especially compared to FR.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I echo the nostalgia aspect and I expect that is what most Greyhawkers will say as well. I like the fact that it was not designed to be a cash cow by its creators but rather a setting to help DMs understand what all a game world can be when dedication is applied.
I've spent most of my DMing years running Greyhawk. It is easily custom designable by the DM to make it what and how they want it. I would love if a 3rd party publisher picked up the pieces of Greyhawk, dusted it off and did it justice.
Most of the early adventurers were set in Greyhawk. For those of us who played in the late 70's and early 80's it felt like a treasure trove walking into the gaming store (or book store in many cases) and finding Greyhawk material. Much of the early articles in Dragon Magazine were written with Greyhawk in mind.
It made me feel like I was playing D&D history.
I have never played in Greyhawk so it doesn't have the nostalgia factor for me. But I'd be interested in a Greyhawk revival because, from my understanding, unlike the Realms it doesn't have all these Mary Sue NPCs running around all the time. While there are still powerful and dangerous NPCs they are both more spread out and more easily excised from the setting than their counterparts in the Realms. Again, I'd like to emphasize that this is only my understanding of the setting.
Going back to the nostalgia argument, you know what would be an awesome setting to bring back officially? Mystara, a.k.a. The Known World. The setting of the coolest action games based on D&D.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My favorite Greyhawk setting book was the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (which IIRC Erik Mona had a hand in).
Besides the awesome Nostalgia factor (and I loved the wacky naming conventions too), I preferred it over FR and the like because it felt like a lower magic setting. Grittier I guess.
TBH, I did most of my gaming in FR as of the grey box, but preferred Greyhawk overall even if my group liked the new FR hotness at the time.
At one point though, we all finally got sick of FR's RSEs changing core book meat but most of all it was things like the crazy powerful NPCs (not just the Elminster/Simbul types) that were too much. A level 1 starting group hanging out in a tavern run by a level 3-6 Barkeep kinda had us scratching our head as to why any particular quest giver didn't try hiring the barkeep or bouncer over us in the first place.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
SUNDERSTONE! EILEEEN! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Men I love Greyhawk because it is the anti forgotten realms. No ridiculously overpowered npcs hiring the party to investigate something they could easily do themselves in 5 minutes. No gods on every street corner. No world spanning secret societies that are renown for their wealth and incompetence.
Nostalgia yes, but also Greyhawk had more published adventures (i.e. modules) than any other setting. Or should I say more good modules.
With FR I loved the setting but until they started churning out the big box mega setting adventures (myth drannor, undermountain) the stuff that that was out there was crummy (ok, the Tuigan trilogy actually pretty good).
There was a period when Greyhawk material sucked (thanks Lorraine). That would be anything greyhawk related produced 1986-1988 (aside from the city of Greyhawk boxed set) It was deliberate to entice gamers to TSR's other settings.
The final straw was the Greyhawk wars boxed set, it was the most stupid piece of crap I bought from TSR that year. It totally undermined the setting.
But then something weird happened. A guy named Carl Sargent came in and rescued the big stinking mess and made it into a coherent setting again.
some great regional setting supplements, one great module into the city of Iuz, and then Carl dissapeared (literally, 20 years later no one knows where he went).
But WOTC bought TSR and they produced some decent materiial..check out "The adventure Begins" by Roger Moore.An awesome followup to Sargent's work. There were a few decent 2nd ed greyhawk adventures produced under wotc and then the 3rd edition game and Greyhawk revitalization lost its energy.
pound for pound, the material that was written for greyhawk was more consistently playable than that produced for later settings. Not sure why that was.
The L1 to L3 series was a fantastic low level campaign which could then be extended using other modules such as I1 or I2.
Never had that experience with FG, had to use a crapload of Dungeon adventures instead. Thank god for Dungeon!
Castle greyhawk.... and wasnt the quicksilver hour glass set for greyhawk also? It was like the only ever published epic adventure
SUNDERSTONE! EILEEEN! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Men I love Greyhawk because it is the anti forgotten realms. No ridiculously overpowered npcs hiring the party to investigate something they could easily do themselves in 5 minutes. No gods on every street corner. No world spanning secret societies that are renown for their wealth and incompetence.
Your Rock Freehold DM and as usual, your right about Greyhawk!
Greyhawk feels more medieval, less high fantasy than other settings - like Forgotten Realms - and that suits my taste.
Also, Greyhawk is less of a kitchen sink than Golarion (which I quite like, nonetheless).
Nostalgia plays a huge part in its appeal too, as it's already been said.
I'm currently fantasying (is that a verb ?) about taking the DM's mantle again to master 5th ed adventures in Greyhawk.
Greyhawk is well designed, it doesn't stray from its genre (medieval european fantasy setting), the heraldry of all the countries is well designed (North Kingdom's Aerdi sun is in the banners of the places it has conquered) and it's ripe with political conflict.
Rather than being a swiss army knife of ideas, Greyhawk is incredibly focused, and it uses tropes, ironies, echoes of real world historical events yet appropriately distances itself from it. Cynical yet idealistic at the same time.
The Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom is Greyhawk's most famous order of knights.
It is made up of LG and LE knights. Their most famous member Sir Kargoth lost a trial by combat for leadership of the knights, bitter and angry he got seduced by demonic powers and became a death knight, with one mission to kill the remaining members of The Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom.
The most famous order of knights and the most infamous and they are both good and evil working together. Love it!
But then something weird happened. A guy named Carl Sargent came in and rescued the big stinking mess and made it into a coherent setting again.
Didn't Carl Sargent do the Night Below box, that was awesome too.
And.... Ahoy, Freehold!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Greyhawk was the first complete published campaign world that I played in, and read voraciously everything that came out about it that I could get my hands on, so I would know as much about the world called Oerth as I could and would know where I was, what was going on in the area, and to gasp in horror when appropriate.
Its why I can NEVER, EVER get rid of any of my Greyhawk supplements, adventures, or sourcebooks. It holds a special place in my heart that will never be supplanted by anything else. Its from where the Drow originally came, and the source of illithids and beholders, along with St. Cuthbert, Vecna, Moredenkainen, as well as a myriad of other characters, deities, and monsters.
It is the roots for many of us, and those roots go deep.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Greyhawk was the first complete published campaign world that I played in, and read voraciously everything that came out about it that I could get my hands on, so I would know as much about the world called Oerth as I could and would know where I was, what was going on in the area, and to gasp in horror when appropriate.
Its why I can NEVER, EVER get rid of any of my Greyhawk supplements, adventures, or sourcebooks. It holds a special place in my heart that will never be supplanted by anything else. Its from where the Drow originally came, and the source of illithids and beholders, along with St. Cuthbert, Vecna, Moredenkainen, as well as a myriad of other characters, deities, and monsters.
It is the roots for many of us, and those roots go deep.
And some of us have never left Greyhawk, currently playing ROTRL (AE) set in Ratik.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I remember thinking that when I read Pathfinder's main setting books, its like the countries were developed completely independent of each other, or were developed right along side another for a specific campaign in mind.
I've been reading the World of Greyhawk book for the past day and franky, I can't put it down. The countries actually interact. You don't have to do "save the world games". Heck a group of players can be the spies for an advancing army. And a whole number of other campaigns I can't see that (with a few exceptions) can't really be done in the above mentioned CS. It definitely sounds like a nice change from what I have been playing.
Would greyhawk inspired adventures for 5e be of interest to anyone? I can't do Greyhawk itself, but I can certainly make adventures that would fit will in Greyhawk.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I remember thinking that when I read Pathfinder's main setting books, its like the countries were developed completely independent of each other, or were developed right along side another for a specific campaign in mind.
I've been reading the World of Greyhawk book for the past day and franky, I can't put it down. The countries actually interact. You don't have to do "save the world games". Heck a group of players can be the spies for an advancing army. And a whole number of other campaigns I can't see that (with a few exceptions) can't really be done in the above mentioned CS. It definitely sounds like a nice change from what I have been playing.
Would greyhawk inspired adventures for 5e be of interest to anyone? I can't do Greyhawk itself, but I can certainly make adventures that would fit will in Greyhawk.
What the Golarion setting does well is set up adventure hooks. And it's quite malleable in the shift of themes.
I don't play D&D 5e, but what is missing is published products that has a lot of restraint, everything is so epic and grand.
So conversion (regardless of system) is difficult, a 3PP that described a medieval city, full of NPCs, medieval laws, city watch, guild politics would be most welcome by my gaming group.
And lots of grey, less black and white (good and evil). And most importantly history, in Greyhawk everything has a history, often a complex history, where ancient rivalries still exist and former friends are now enemies.
Dale, happy you are gaining something from researching Greyhawk, it's overlooked by many.
and wasnt the quicksilver hour glass set for greyhawk also? It was like the only ever published epic adventure
No, that was The Storm Lord's Keep (Dungeon 93, back when it was combined with Polyhedron), the first epic adventure (21st level characters). The Quicksilver Hourglass (Dungeon 123) was later and almost entirely setting-neutral (other than the origin world of the Union of Eclipses), as well as higher-level (30th).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Like Morzadian said, we need more "grey"! As it was stated before, in Greyhawk, nations could war one against another, and few years later be allies against some other neighbour. The grandest order of knights was composed from followers from both Hextor and Heroneous, with an intense rivalry between the factions, but still working toward a common goal.
That's the kind of stuff that I think is missing from modern campaign settings.
I know it's far more work, but some kind on mini-campaign setting, a few nations, free cities, trading port, with interaction, political intrigues, between them. Good background history for each of these. You could add a few human ethnicity with each their own pantheon, that must live together. You can do so for other races as well.
Like Morzadian said, we need more "grey"! As it was stated before, in Greyhawk, nations could war one against another, and few years later be allies against some other neighbour. The grandest order of knights was composed from followers from both Hextor and Heroneous, with an intense rivalry between the factions, but still working toward a common goal.
That's the kind of stuff that I think is missing from modern campaign settings.
I know it's far more work, but some kind on mini-campaign setting, a few nations, free cities, trading port, with interaction, political intrigues, between them. Good background history for each of these. You could add a few human ethnicity with each their own pantheon, that must live together. You can do so for other races as well.
You bring up a pertinent point about pantheons, the old gods (flan) and the new (oeridian) and the rivalries they bring is very interesting. It's not a good/evil rivalry but competing cultures.
It's not balanced either with the followers of Vatun (Suel pantheon) losing big time, dominated by the powerful following of Telchur (Oeridian pantheon).
The alliances that countries have, produced a turbulent political landscape for Greyhawk, the dwaves allying themselves with Ratik, the orcs from Bone March and North Kingdom and Furyondy's uneasy alliance with its neighbouring human country Keoland. An environment rich in political intrigue and backstabbing.
But then something weird happened. A guy named Carl Sargent came in and rescued the big stinking mess and made it into a coherent setting again.
Didn't Carl Sargent do the Night Below box, that was awesome too.
And.... Ahoy, Freehold!
Everything Carl Sargent did was awesome.
I read somewhere that SKR said Carl Sargent was in a car accident and could no longer work in the capacity he had before.
Would greyhawk inspired adventures for 5e be of interest to anyone? I can't do Greyhawk itself, but I can certainly make adventures that would fit will in Greyhawk.
Yes! Yes! A thousand times YES!
Many of us grew up playing the classic modules of 1st Edition which were almost exclusively set in Greyhawk and would LOVE to return to that setting instead of being force-fed yet another epic "Save the Universe" campaign in the Forgotten Realms.
It's hard to put a finger on it.
Countries and personalities with their own agendas. Not just good guys and bad guys.
Lower magic than forgotten realms. But also some almighty weird eldritch stuff, like Vecna.
Detailed but with broad brush strokes.
For me I always felt that forgotten realms was similar in its generic fantasy trope but is trying too hard to be "better than Greyhawk". Like everything Greyhawk has it tries to have one, but better. That doesn't work.
I am just about to start a 5e campaign. I will return to Greyhawk after 6 years in Golarion. Shackled City with a bucketload of extras to make it a sandbox with an adventure path spine. I am setting it around the time of the 3e era gazetteer and am looking forward to the influence of the battle between the Scarlet Brotherhood and the Sea Princes spilling over into Cauldron.
Oh, and yes I would love some 5e greyhawk ( any non massive adventure path 5e really - WOTC doesn't make small adventures I can fit into my Greyhawk)
I have to say, for the opposite side of view...I don't care for Greyhawk very much. Perhaps for some of the reasons people love it.
I love FR, and DL, and AQ, and Oriental Adventures (both settings)...and Golarion.
But I never grew to love GreyHawk. Some of the names were just...too out there and too wacked...which does not go well with the setting which at times seems too mundane. It just doesn't stir the excitement up for me the way the other ones do.
At least I like it better then Birthright.
Everything Carl Sargent did was awesome.I read somewhere that SKR said Carl Sargent was in a car accident and could no longer work in the capacity he had before.
wow, that's sad if it's true. :(
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The two stories are (a) he had car accident (b) he had a nervous breakdown on transit between the Uk and the US where he was supposed to start a new job at FASA.
either way, no one has been able to get a first hand version ..bottom line, the guy was brilliant and I loved his stuff. The Night Below is my favorite campaign set..and was the basis for my most popular campaign as DM ever..
..bottom line, the guy was brilliant and I loved his stuff. The Night Below is my favorite campaign set..and was the basis for my most popular campaign as DM ever..
I loved Night Below too.
|
Nostalgia, big time.
The first product I bought for AD&D2e, rulebooks aside, was The City of Greyhawk boxed set - before that I only played BECMi, and had a tresure trove of Mystaran Gazeteers.
Stuff already said: big picture with details, plausible history and people, nations that don't look like "a touch of this a touch of that", a feeling of danger pretty much everywhere without the need of leveled farmers and bartenders.
To me another big point was the proactiveness of NPCs, those high level legends that are DM tools rather than statblocs. Bad guys didn't just brood in dark and foreboding keeps 'cause they were eeeeeviiiil, and good guys didn't just wait in line to bash evildoers when they showed up.
Just reading the setting you had the feeling you had to keep up with the pace, there was a lot actually in motion and not in the "just about to happen" limbo.
The only setting that managed to come close was the Scarred Lands during the 3.5 days.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Would greyhawk inspired adventures for 5e be of interest to anyone? I can't do Greyhawk itself, but I can certainly make adventures that would fit will in Greyhawk.
Absolutely, maybe with a section in front of the adventure advising what area(s) would be a good sub in Greyhawk.
I personally love Greyhawk because it was the default for a long while and some of the best old adventures were set there. There was never a feel that the world would end if the PCs didn't do there job which always seemed more believable to me. A world that could end every couple years if the right group of heroes doesn't come along in the nick of time to save it just isn't something I find attractive or feasible.
Love mystara too.
Absolutely, maybe with a section in front of the adventure advising what area(s) would be a good sub in Greyhawk.
Well this, I can't do. Greyhawk is wizards owned so I can't touch it. But I can certainly do adventures involving something along the lines of a corrupt official hiring a band of orcs to harrass the caravan guild as a negotiating tactic to get them to lower their inflated prices to help the poverty stricken population and let you work it into your campaign.
Btw, anyone ever check out Goodman's Aereth setting back in the 3.5 days? It seemed more Greyhawky than FR or Golarion.
Absolutely, maybe with a section in front of the adventure advising what area(s) would be a good sub in Greyhawk.Well this, I can't do. Greyhawk is wizards owned so I can't touch it. But I can certainly do adventures involving something along the lines of a corrupt official hiring a band of orcs to harrass the caravan guild as a negotiating tactic to get them to lower their inflated prices to help the poverty stricken population and let you work it into your campaign.
I remember an old Greyhawk adventure where you had to escort a group of pacifist ogres on a holy pilgrimage, and right at the end of the adventure something happens and they turn back to their evil selves.
And the party said "I knew it! I know we couldn't trust these ogres, holy pilgrimage what a joke!"
Greyhawk has a sense of irony or humour to it.
Dale, politics, particularly grey politics is a good way to start. Sounds interesting.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, I think that was a side adventure from the from the city of greyhawk box set. Something about being converted to Pholtus and then they snap at the end and revert back to thugs.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just found out today that the City of greyhawk boxed set I mentioned before as being one of the only good Greyhawk materials between 1986 and 1992 was co-authored by ..Carl Sargent.
I should have guessed considering the quality.
Just found out today that the City of greyhawk boxed set I mentioned before as being one of the only good Greyhawk materials between 1986 and 1992 was co-authored by ..Carl Sargent.
I should have guessed considering the quality.
Awesome,
Did you get a copy of Ivid the Undying by Carl Sargent, it was never published?
If not I think you could still find it somewhere? I know WOTC has sadly gone out of its way to shut down 3.5 websites like D&D Tools
I downloaded it as a free PDF a few years ago. I think it is still available at Acaeum website.
I downloaded it as a free PDF a few years ago. I think it is still available at Acaeum website.
Still there. I just downloaded it. I'll read it on the flight home from paizocon (which departs in 1 hour).
First, nostalgia; it's mostly the first D&D setting, FR.Second actually. I believe the first was Blackmoor.
True, Blackmoor (Dave Arneson's home campaign) was the first setting but Greyhawk was the first fully fleshed-out published setting available for purchase, so I think it is fair to refer to it as the "first" at least as far as those of us who didn't actually get to game with Arneson or Gygax.
True, Blackmoor (Dave Arneson's home campaign) was the first setting but Greyhawk was the first fully fleshed-out published setting available for purchase, so I think it is fair to refer to it as the "first" at least as far as those of us who didn't actually get to game with Arneson or Gygax.First, nostalgia; it's mostly the first D&D setting, FR.Second actually. I believe the first was Blackmoor.
I knew about Blackmoor being ran before Greyhawk, but didn't remember if it was truely consider a D&D setting at that time, hence the "it's mostly" part in my statement :D
True, Blackmoor (Dave Arneson's home campaign) was the first setting but Greyhawk was the first fully fleshed-out published setting available for purchase, so I think it is fair to refer to it as the "first" at least as far as those of us who didn't actually get to game with Arneson or Gygax.First, nostalgia; it's mostly the first D&D setting, FR.Second actually. I believe the first was Blackmoor.
What of mystara?
Mystara came way too late to the party :P
First, nostalgia; it's mostly the first D&D setting, FR.Second actually. I believe the first was Blackmoor.
Blackmoor wasn't really even a setting, not what we would call a setting. More like a campaign journal.
Arneson created the concept of dungeons with levels and the lower you go in the dungeon the harder it gets. Still a large contributor to the development of the D&D game.
On the topic of settings, Greyhawk has the best maps ever produced for an RPG, courtesy of the very talented Anna B. Meyer.