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Mounted combat rules... so confusingly written.
Q: Can I use Cleave while mounted during movement? That is, can I steer my mount into range, cleave or great cleave more than one creature, and then have my mount continue moving?
Q: Can I attack while my mount is moving as a part of a full round action, as with Spring Attack? Example: My mount uses spring attack. At the time I approach threatening range, I attack (or even cleave/vital strike) and then the mount continues as per normal.
Q: The rules don't mention anything about attacking and then moving. It's all about moving and then attacking. If I attack (or cleave or vital strike or other standard action) and THEN my mount does nothing but move, how much movement can I get my mount to do?
Design Manager
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So, Mounted Combat can be a little confusing, but...
A1- "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack" You'll notice it doesn't say "single standard action" or "after your mount moves more than 5 feet" so you cannot Cleave for an extra attack if your mount moves more than 5 feet at any point during that turn. You can Vital Strike though, since that is still only a single attack.
A2- There's no reason you couldn't, as long as the attack you're making is only a single melee attack. Your mount moves up, you both attack, then your mount moves on. Note that you aren't charging so you won't get those bonuses for this attack.
A3- See above. You cannot take more than a single attack in a round where your mount moves more than 5 feet. This means that the inverse is also true, i.e. your mount cannot move more than 5 feet in a round where you take more than a single melee attack.
So cleave would actually be less useful for a mounted character, as a standard walking character can walk in and cleave, but a mounted character cannot if the distance is greater than 5 feet?
And now to get more confusing; what about single attacks made as a full round action? (As with Death or Glory) Can I move before, after, or both while using a feat like that? Can I do it during my mount's spring attack? Oy.
Thank you for your quick reply.
Edit: Also, does this mean I can't do standard actions in general (unless they can also be attacks), as with Feint, Dirty Trick, or Reposition?
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Design Manager
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So cleave would actually be less useful for a mounted character, as a standard walking character can walk in and cleave, but a mounted character cannot if the distance is greater than 5 feet?
And now to get more confusing; what about single attacks made as a full round action? (As with Death or Glory) Can I move before, after, or both while using a feat like that? Can I do it during my mount's spring attack? Oy.
Thank you for your quick reply.
Edit: Also, does this mean I can't do standard actions in general (unless they can also be attacks), as with Feint, Dirty Trick, or Reposition?
The limit is actually only on number of attacks. So you could actually have your mount use Spring Attack and use Death and Glory against your opponent. Standard actions are not necessarily limited, but be aware of what actions you are performing. If it is an attack action (like Trip or Sunder), it needs to be the only one you make that round if your mount moves more than 5 feet.
I actually really like the idea of Dirty Trick combined with a Spring Attacking mount. The image of you spitting in your opponents eyes as your mount bites him and then runs away is kind of hilarious....
But allowing a cleaving charge would make a lot of thematic sense :)
Personally, I think it's crazy silly that archers lose little while mounted but melee folks get the shaft. I doubt it would change at this point, but I really wish melee/ranged and mounted combat would get a real re-balancing effort by the devs.
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Design Manager
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The devs added the Mounted Skirmisher feat in the APG to allow Martials to remove the single attack restriction. It's available at 11th level (or first level if you're a Sohei), presumably the point at which the devs felt that the melee benefits ceased to outweigh the negatives of the single attack restriction. Remember, mounted combatants get a +1 to hit against medium and smaller targets, can deal up to 3x damage on a charge, and can fight in conjunction with their mounts for some fairly devastating effects. 11th level, the point where their 3 possible attacks is equal to the damage they can do with a single charge, seems an appropriate place for the restriction to be lifted as long as they pick up the feat.
Mounted Skirmisher (Combat)
You are adept at attacking from upon a swift moving steed.
Prerequisites: Ride rank 14, Mounted Combat, Trick Riding.
It's level 14, not 11. And it REALLY needs to be a lot lower. There is a hefty feat requirement IMO, so it should be available as early as level 6.
Charging has it's own preqs as well (well, to be effective), so only fighters (and amybe cavaliers) have a chance of getting them all (and certainly not quickly).
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Design Manager
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Mounted Skirmisher (Combat)
You are adept at attacking from upon a swift moving steed.
Prerequisites: Ride rank 14, Mounted Combat, Trick Riding.It's level 14, not 11. And it REALLY needs to be a lot lower. There is a hefty feat requirement IMO, so it should be available as early as level 6.
Charging has it's own preqs as well (well, to be effective), so only fighters (and amybe cavaliers) have a chance of getting them all (and certainly not quickly).
Please elaborate on the charging having prereqs. I don't really agree with that being the case. I do agree that 14 is a bit too high, 11 would be better.
I am pretty sure that you can perform standard actions before or at the end of your mount's movement.
I would allow Cleave.
It doesn't stand to reason that you move 10' on a horse and not be able to take a standard action.
You can take a move action that is not movement while the mount is moving and the standard action once you get there, as long as you can guide with knees to keep your hands free.
It does stand to reason that you cannot full attack at the end of movement. But by the strictest reading of RAW, you could not mount the horse and have it move 10' as the only action allowed is to make one attack. And most assuredly, you can light a torch and then move.
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Design Manager
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I am pretty sure that you can perform standard actions before or at the end of your mount's movement.
I would allow Cleave.
It doesn't stand to reason that you move 10' on a horse and not be able to take a standard action.
You can take a move action that is not movement while the mount is moving and the standard action once you get there, as long as you can guide with knees to keep your hands free.
It does stand to reason that you cannot full attack at the end of movement. But by the strictest reading of RAW, you could not mount the horse and have it move 10' as the only action allowed is to make one attack. And most assuredly, you can light a torch and then move.
It is not that the only action allowed is one attack, it is that you are limited to one attack if you take any attack action. It is not that you cannot use standard actions, it is that Cleave involves 2 attacks, and you are limited to 1 if your mount moves more than 5 feet. The second attack is not legal. As I mentioned in an earlier thread, you could use Death and Glory, a Full Round Action, at the end of a mount's movement, even at the end of a charge, because it is only 1 attack. It is not the type of actions that are limited, it is specifically the number of attacks.
In my opinion, this is a case of the specific (cleave) overriding the general (mounted combat).
In almost all cases more than one attack requires the full attack action. Cleave only requires a standard action.
Otherwise it is almost like the hands aren't hands when counting Two-Weapon Fighting debate.
If that were the case, almost every other standard action works when you move 10' of your 50' speed, but you can't use your cleave action which gives you a second attack, if you meet certain conditions, as a standard action. So in this case a standard action is not a standard action?
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Design Manager
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In my opinion, this is a case of the specific (cleave) overriding the general (mounted combat).
In almost all cases more than one attack requires the full attack action. Cleave only requires a standard action.
Otherwise it is almost like the hands aren't hands when counting Two-Weapon Fighting debate.
If that were the case, almost every other standard action works when you move 10' of your 50' speed, but you can't use your cleave action which gives you a second attack, if you meet certain conditions, as a standard action. So in this case a standard action is not a standard action?
The action type doesn't change, but the fact that you are limited to a single attack prevents you from using actions that involve more than one attack. That means you can't Whirlwind Attack or Cleave if your mount has moved more than 5 feet (at least not until you have Mounted Skirmisher). You are looking at this the wrong way. It is not actions that are prohibited, it is number of attacks. Technically you could use Cleave, but you wouldn't be able to make the second attack granted by it as that is prohibited by the Mounted Combat rules.
The cleave feat is a single attack. It uses those words. And then, if you hit, you get an extra!
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
So I move. I make a single melee attack using Cleave. I hit! And then I get my additional attack on an adjacent baddy. I continue moving.
Please elaborate on the charging having prereqs. I don't really agree with that being the case. I do agree that 14 is a bit too high, 11 would be better.Mounted Skirmisher (Combat)
You are adept at attacking from upon a swift moving steed.
Prerequisites: Ride rank 14, Mounted Combat, Trick Riding.It's level 14, not 11. And it REALLY needs to be a lot lower. There is a hefty feat requirement IMO, so it should be available as early as level 6.
Charging has it's own preqs as well (well, to be effective), so only fighters (and amybe cavaliers) have a chance of getting them all (and certainly not quickly).
The pre-reqs are the additional feats needed to reduce the overall stipulations on charge. Nimble Moves/Abundant Step help your mount ignore the difficult terrain restriction in many cases. Charge Through/Wheeling Charge for getting around blocking opponents and straight line to target requirements, respectively. Without those feats, charging is difficult at best.
Can I take a 5-foot step in the middle of my attempt to use the Cleave feat, to bring another foe within reach?
No. Cleave is a special action and the conditions for that action are checked at the moment you begin your action. At that moment, all of the available targets are checked to make sure they adjacent to each other and within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step in the middle of the action and check conditions again. If you do not have two targets within reach, adjacent to each other at the start of the attack, you could not even attempt to make an attack using Cleave.
Using this backwards, when you begin your action, you only make a single attack as a standard action. The condition that gives you a second attack does not yet exist and therefore cannot stop you from moving more than 5'
Additionally, if a creature used mounted combat to move 10' then attacked and hit, you would not stop them from using their grab ability, would you? It is an add on attack from the hit, not a planned second attack.
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Design Manager
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The cleave feat is a single attack. It uses those words. And then, if you hit, you get an extra!
So I move. I make a single melee attack using Cleave. I hit! And then I get my additional attack on an adjacent baddy. I continue moving.
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
You cannot make the additonal attack. You are limited to only one attack if your mount moves more than 5 feet in that round. So you can use Cleave all you want, but you can never actually execute that second attack since it is illegal and exceeds the number of attacks allowed by Mounted Combat, which states " If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack." You can use any action you want to make that first attack, Cleave, Attack Action, Whirlwind Attack, etc. BUT after you execute the first attack in the sequence, that's it, you're done, you have reached your limit, because mounted combat specifically limits the number of attacks you can make in a round. It has no impact on what actions you can take, but very specifically limits the number of attacks.
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Design Manager
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Additionally, if a creature used mounted combat to move 10' then attacked and hit, you would not stop them from using their grab ability, would you? It is an add on attack from the hit, not a planned second attack.
You are once more showing that you just don't understand the terminology at all. Grab is a special ability that triggers on an attack, it is not an attack. Actions are not what are limited by Mounted Combat, attacks are. Whether or not Grab triggers and whether you can make extra attacks from any source are two entirely different things.
Maybe this FAQ on Vital Strike will help to clarify the issue:
"Vital Strike: Can I use this with Spring Attack, or on a charge?
No. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action. Spring Attack is a special kind of full-round action that includes the ability to make one melee attack, not one attack action. Charging uses similar language and can also not be used in combination with Vital Strike.
—Jason Bulmahn, 11/30/12 Back to Top "
Mounted Combat rules do not limit "attack actions" or "actions", they limit "melee attacks", which can be an attack made as part of an Attack Action, an attack made as part of a Full Attack Action, or as part of another special action, like Cleave. Because of this, regardless of what action you use, you can only ever make 1 melee attack.
I did make a single melee attack. And it hit. And now the cleave feat says I can make an additional attack on the next guy. Normally you can't do that, but the cleave feat says you can.
Ignoring the following line is problematic: "Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack."
It explicitly limits full attacks of that I have no problem. It doesn't use the Whirlwind Attack text which explicitly limits bonus attacks from feats and what not. I did wait until my mount got to my enemy(ies), and now I'm hitting them.
So if I use that melee attack to make a Trip attempt and I have greater trip, I can't make attacks of opportunity?
If I have the Cleaving Finish feat and I drop the guy with my single melee attack, I can't take an additional attack?
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Design Manager
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So if I use that melee attack to make a Trip attempt and I have greater trip, I can't make attacks of opportunity?
If I have the Cleaving Finish feat and I drop the guy with my single melee attack, I can't take an additional attack?
That's exactly right. Because Mounted Combat limits you to a single melee attack if your mount moves more than 5 feet. That is the specifc rule for mounted combat, and since it only applies to mounted combat, that is the specific that overrides the general. Generally, you can make an extra attack when you hit with Cleave. Specifically, you can only ever make a single melee attack while mounted if your mount moves more than 5 feet.
And that's the more generous interpretation going off the rules for Mounted Combat from the CRB. Someone who really wanted to stick it to mounted characters could point out this line of text from the Mounted Skirmisher feat that says "Normal: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action." That interpretation would rule out Cleave altogether since it is its own special standard action.
There are actually two different places where the restriction is different, but neither of them allows you to get the second attack from Cleave.
There is no logic behind your reasoning. It does not stand to reason that you can take any other standard action after a mount moves, except a standard attack action that, if all conditions are perfect, give you another attack.
When it comes to general vs. specific, the less people that can do it, the less situations that it is available, the more specific it is. Generally, more people have Power Attack. Specifically, some have Cleave.
In my opinion, as an option that every single character in the game can do, Mounted Combat is the general rule. As a feat that must be chosen, and that has pre-reqs, Cleave is the specific rule. Wizards, Rogues, Sorcerers, Monks, Clerics, Bards and Druids can't cleave at level one. Barbarians, Rangers and Paladins can't even do it at level one unless they are human. Only the Fighter can do it at level one no matter his race. If that is not more specific than every class being able to use Mounted Combat, than what is?
And Pharmalade is correct, it even says that "essentially...you can't make a full attack." No one is trying to, which is normally (general rule) the only time you can make more than one attack.
The problem is that if you literally follow the rule, "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack." Then you also can't cast spells, light a torch or use ranged weapons. Of course you are going to say it goes on to say that you can, and you are right. But I am going to go on to say the Cleave also changes what you are allowed to do.
And if you are really literal, RAW states "You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll", which would rule out the ability to make ranged attacks when the mount moves but doesn't double move or even when the mount is standing still. I am sure that it is obvious to both of us that is not the intent. But a literal reading that follows the logic, "you can only do exactly what it says with no interpretation", can only come to that conclusion. The general rule here would be that you can make a ranged attack before or after a move, but the specific would be the mounted combat ranged rules that state you can make ranged attacks when the mount double moves.
Also, if you are correct, that would be the only corner case in the game where you can take any standard action except standard attack actions.
The rules you quote governing Spring Attack can't apply the same way here. The reason is because this is not the only option for Mounted Combat. Spring Attack only does one thing. There is only one choice. Mounted Combat is an option with a lot of options.
Really, the mount replaces your movement, gives you a +1 in melee and allows you to full attack ranged weapons while moving but at a penalty.
And finally, I know grab is a special ability. My point was that it is an ability that gives you more actions after an attack, which is what Cleave does. It is the only thing in the game that I could think of that does that. The inclusion of grab was not to say it was an attack, but rather more (extra) action economy that would work in this case which, in my opinion, shows just how much of a corner case using Cleave after a mount moves 10'.
OH WAIT! and even more literally (really, there is more) it says: "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack." Which we both read to say that if you move 5' or less you can full attack, right? It doesn't say 5' step. So, given that, if the mount moves 5' into the heavy undergrowth of a forest during a snow storm (counts as 8 squares), the rider could still full attack?
So I think you can see that a lot of interpretation is required just to make the rules work the way we both think they work. There is just one part that we disagree on.
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Design Manager
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*A giant argument that shows you haven't been reading a word I've said*
It is number of melee attacks that are limited by the main Mounted Combat rules. I don't know how else to put this. You are making a bunch of ridiculous statements where you are trying to pull in rules while ignoring other parts.
The rules for ranged combat while mounted state "You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally."So Ranged combat is already covered. You can't full attack with a melee weapon, that's a no brainer, but it is also a separate sentence from the one that says "You can make only a single melee attack". Those are two restrictions.
So, given that, if the mount moves 5' into the heavy undergrowth of a forest during a snow storm (counts as 8 squares), the rider could still full attack?
Yes, he could. Because the rule doesn't talk about your mount's move actions, only distance moved.
Amazing.
Disagreement =/= me not reading what you wrote. I am always amazed at how often people rudely attack others in their arguments just because we see it differently.
And there is now way the moving 10' and attacking will stop you from being able to make AoOs during your turn. While I will give you the fact that you might be right about Cleave even though I don't see it the way you do, I am sure you can still take your AoO from Greater Improved Trip should you trip a creature.
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Design Manager
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Amazing.
And there is now way the moving 10' and attacking will stop you from being able to make AoOs during your turn. While I will give you the fact that you might be right about Cleave even though I don't see it the way you do, I am sure you can still take your AoO from Greater Improved Trip should you trip a creature.
Yeah, except for the fact that until they change the rules for mounted combat, that is exactly what it says. Mount moves more than 5 feet, one melee attack for you.
And I'm sorry if you skimming my posts and then making a bunch of responses that don't have anything to do with what I've said lead me to believe you didn't read them at all, like when you said this: "The rules you quote governing Spring Attack can't apply the same way here. The reason is because this is not the only option for Mounted Combat. Spring Attack only does one thing. There is only one choice. Mounted Combat is an option with a lot of options." Which has nothing to do with anything I said. Or when you made false equivalencies implying that I somehow said Cleave was not a standard action, which I didn't. What I did do, was try to point out to you that there is a difference between an attack action, and an attack. Two completely separate things. Attacks are what are limited. That means that by the current rules if your mount moves more than 5 feet, no you cannot make opportunity attacks if you've already attacked, you cannot make the second attack granted by Cleave, you cannot make more than 1 melee attack.You see, Mounted Combat goes pushes very hard against the limits of a turn-based system because you have two creatures whose actions are separate yet occurring at exactly the same time, something that generally doesn't happen elsewhere in the game. You can't make multiple attacks because your mount is in the act of moving. Remember, everything that happens in a turn happens congruently, we are just using turns to make this a playable sequence. You are fully engaged by the fact that your actions are constrained by what your mount is doing. So while people are milling around you, etc., you are couching a lance preparing for the single highest single target damage strike possible in the game. The penalty for this is an inability to make any other attacks that round. Just because you can't believe it doesn't mean that it is not clearly spelled out in the RAW. What you believe or want to be true has no impact on what is or is not printed on paper. Hopefully the devs will look at threads like this and say "Gee, maybe we should refine these a bit". That has no impact on what the rules say right now. We definitely house-rule or handwave a few things related to it, but that has no impact on what is printed.
You can ONLY make a single melee attack is highly limiting and contradictory to other sources.
I want to know what kind of action it is. As of now it seems to me the mounted combat rules are broken. You can make full round actions while moving on a mount that probably weren't designed with the intent of being done while moving. At this strict a reading, there are class features that are useless; This would include the Cavalier's 11th level ability to make a free combat maneuver on a charge if that requires an attack role. This limits using ANY combat maneuver that isn't explicitly able to replace an attack. You can be Gannondorf grappling Zelda onto the back of your saddle. You can't dash up to someone and put a bag on their head (dirty trick: blinded or entangled) because that's a standard action, not an attack. You can't bull rush unless doing it as a part of a charge because it's a standard action. You can't take attacks of opportunity.
My reading of "single melee attack" in this instance is not going to be taken separately from the threadword "essentially" as that reads to be a qualifier of the previous statement.
But the rules do not adequately describe what you can do. And that's a darn shame. Mounted combat is already hard enough what with mounts in dungeons and the feat investment. The rules that can lead to arguments like this make it nigh impossible.
Here's how I'm gonna suggest my group runs it.
If your mount does not move more than 5 ft total for the round: You can full attack, and make full round actions. Your mount can also.
If your mount moves 10 or more feet per round: You can make a move and a standard action at any point during movement. Your mount can also make a standard action so long as it only uses one move action, but only at the beginning or ending of a move.
Suggestion for any rules changes: Get rid of the word "only." Without any qualifiers within the same sentence, it can be taken out of context like this. If it IS in the correct context, spell it out with words such as those used for Whirlwind Attack (no extra attacks granted by feats, spells, or class features etc.) and then errata EVERY SINGLE mention of any free or other actions gained for mounted characters or even unmounted characters that should be able to do the thing their class says they should be able to do while mounted so that it ignores that rule.
As of now it's as clear as mud.
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Or we go back to the fact that there is so much more to Mounted Combat rather than just the one line. Charge and Spring Attack only have one statement stating what you can do. Mounted combat is different in that almost every single other standard action is possible.
Something just doesn't add up.