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Yes it is better than shocking grasp but you can't just compare it to one spell, say it's better and declare power creep. Compared to things like Colour Spray or Grease at low level it's fairly weak sauce. When you get it to its max damage at level 5 it's just not very impressive compared to the other options you have.Whereas shocking grasp is the same damage, same spell level, but shorter range (touch) and no possibility of debuffing. Plus the SR thing.
5d6 touch
vs
5d6 at range plus possible debuff and no SRBut again, it doesn't seem to be part of a trend, just a single overdone spell.
Given magical lineage, intensify and the fact that its not wizards who are replacing Shocking Grasp with Snowball.
10d6 ranged or touch, possible debuff, no SR.
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Not to derail, but remember that Snowball was not originally on the allowed list. Thanks to polite requests from community members on these very boards, Mike reconsidered and decided to allow it.
On the original topic I think what we are seeing is not pure power but rather more options for "solving" various encounters. Where originally an enemy might have been extremely difficult unless you had a wizard who could cast a spell on the ranger's bow, you now have an inquisitor who can do it all herself. Season 0, 1, and 2 writers didn't have to think "what could a magus do here?" So it's not uncommon to see a class, item, or spell that didn't exist 3 years ago be the perfect solution for a puzzle now. (Heck, the puzzle might have given someone the idea for that very item.)
That form of "power creep" is inevitable unless you flat out freeze everything at this point and don't allow any new things. (And remember that Paizo's stated reason for the very existence of PFS is "to sell more Paizo products.")
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I retract the word "originally" and replace it with "at one time." My point was that the balance level (or power in the original author's parlance) is always under review. Some members of the boards made arguments that it was not too powerful, others were dead set against it. Mike eventually came around to the side of the "not unbalancing" crowd. That certainly doesn't mean everyone agrees with it, that's why it's an argument and not a law of nature. This very thread has plenty of people opining that it's too powerful.
As long as they don't degenerate into acrimony, these type of threads are useful to campaign leadership in the striving to maintain that balance. "Has everything Powered up?" may not change anything, but if the thread contains examples of things that *might* be a bit overpowered (along with reasoning), some things may change.
This one started with the opinion that Aasimars and Tiefling's racial attribute bonuses and SLAs were unbalancing. I suppose you can say the hypothesis was "Aasimars and Tieflings are just flat out better." What I've taken in from the people who answered the original question is a fairly strong sense that they can indeed be more powerful - for very specific builds. It certainly doesn't mean you have to play an Aasimar to be successful. And in most cases you've got to decide if the opportunity cost is worth it. Anyhow, that's my takeaway.
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I agree that LG had to ramp up it's scenario threat level although it could be debated whether this was just the natural evolution of the game as scenario writers had the same access to the new books as the players.
I have no clue whether this was a barrier to new players. Anecdotally I'd say no as from what I saw in my area, new players played and stayed.
I strongly disagree that power creep had anything to do with LG's demise. 4th Edition came out and Greyhawk was no longer the default setting. Living Forgotten Realms was created to replace LG. That was the end of LG in a nut-shell.
LG was a very Regional Game. Some regions had more power creep than others - and it was the metaregional games in my experience that had the more over-the-top stuff. Some regions did well in still providing opportunities for new people - while providing battle interactives and the like for people who wanted super challenge. And I also agree that some authors wanted to "get" players, but it was up to their editors to tone that down.
Yes, once we got the word that Year 8 would be a short year and the end, then a lot of stops got pulled - but that was AFTER Living Greyhawk staff was told the game was coming to an end.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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One post above mentioned the proliferation of invisible fliers at mid-level. If that's the bar, then what does that say about invisible, flying, hasted, multiattacking, poisoning, fast healing creatures with DR in Pathfinder at 1st level?
I thought it was a fluke...but I ran into the same creature in several modules at the 1-2 tier. And several times I've encountered the "skill check or die" obstacles.
Huh? What creature(s), skill checks and scenarios are you encountering at tier 1-2? (Answer in a spoiler, please.)
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As for the climb thing... Carry rope. What good Pathfinder (or adventurer for that matter) doesn't have some rope? The hemp version is fairly cheap. If you knot it, the climb against a wall becomes DC 0. All but the weakest or most heavily armored can make a DC 0 with take 10 and not fail by 5 or more. And if it is an issue, tie the rope around them and have someone lower them down.
As for the swim thing... it boggles my mind that a rule that's been in the game since 3.0 is suddenly becoming a topic of discussion for power creep. Are you seriously saying that all sub-tier 1-2 scenarios shouldn't have bodies of water in them?
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And if he's getting an extra attack from haste then that means he ended his turn not only visible, but within 5ft of you. Now everyone can just lay into him with everything they've got.
Assuming a GM understands the core mechanics surrounding the abilities involved (how invis breaks, haste's change from 3.X, etc), an imp is not a big deal.
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** spoiler omitted **Getting off-topic here.
An Oil of Bless Weapon is 100gp a pop...not exactly cheap for starting characters. Basically any consumable at 50gp+ each is pretty steep when you start out.
I always carry a rope+grappling hook.
I don't consider skill checks a symptom of power creep...I consider "skill check or *die*, *unless* you have magic/special ability to compensate" to be a perfect example power creep.
My litmus test for power creep for the above situation is where:
1) non-core characters was easily (no extra preparation or magic item required) able to deal with the consequences.
and
2) A Core character had limited options at their disposal and usually had to either pay the penalty or expend greater resources to achieve the same result.
Skill check or Die is the essence of the worlds oldest role playing game :), Read a first edition manual lol. (partially true, but mostly trying to keep it light) almost the opposite of power creep, really.
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As far as power creep on the written scenario side goes:
I think players underestimate the need for consumables. To often players just say " Well I will just deal with what ever comes with whatever my character can naturally do." A little bit of planning and a few thousand gp can go a long way. Having a potion of x,y, and z can get you out of a lot of issues. I still go by the old LG mantra of spending at minimum 10% of your wealth on consumables. Having potions of gaseous form, fly, invis, remove X, mage armor, water breathing, etc. can really help out.
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** spoiler omitted **Getting off-topic here.
An Oil of Bless Weapon is 100gp a pop...not exactly cheap for starting characters. Basically any consumable at 50gp+ each is pretty steep when you start out.
I always carry a rope+grappling hook. :)
I don't consider skill checks a symptom of power creep...I consider "skill check or *die*, *unless* you have magic/special ability to compensate" to be a perfect example of power creep. :)
My litmus test for power creep for the above situation is where:
1) non-core characters was easily (no extra preparation or magic item required) able to deal with the consequences.
and
2) A Core character had limited options at their disposal and usually had to either pay the penalty or expend greater resources to achieve the same result.Example of above: characters in medium-heavy armor suddenly find themselves underwater.
Core results: drowned. GM ruled you could not drink a potion while underwater.
Non-core results:
Air Crystal.
Potion of Air Bubble/Touch of the Sea in a Potion Sponge.
FYI: Potion of Bless Weapon is 50gp, not 100gp. Its a 1st level spell.
Failing to swim does not automatically initiate drowning. You still have 2 x your Constitution score to hold your breath, and then you get Constitution checks starting at DC 10 (getting two harder each round) before the drowning rules commence.
Holding your breath is core.
Walking along the bottom of whatever body of water you are on until you reach shore, is core.
Drowning at Sea because you fall overboard is core.
Designing sub-tier 1-2 scenarios without bodies of water is a silly proposition.
Sorry authors, Water is too difficult for core sub-tier 1-2, so you gotta do something else. /sarcasm
There are no situations in which its a skill or die check, if you go prepared, with CORE, mundane equipment.
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As far as power creep on the written scenario side goes:
I think players underestimate the need for consumables. To often players just say " Well I will just deal with what ever comes with whatever my character can naturally do." A little bit of planning and a few thousand gp can go a long way. Having a potion of x,y, and z can get you out of a lot of issues. I still go by the old LG mantra of spending at minimum 10% of your wealth on consumables. Having potions of gaseous form, fly, invis, remove X, mage armor, water breathing, etc. can really help out.
Interestingly enough, the WBL table assumes 10-15% on consumables.
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We are gearing up for Waking Rune hard mode and I just spent 6000 gp on consumables, mostly scrolls. Now some of the big ticket ones are not typically on my keep around all the time list, but I keep a well stocked scroll list on my caster (most for casting myself but quite a few are for a cleric/oracle).
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See, Tellen wasn't a classically-trained Pathfinder. He used to be a part-time mercenary and occasional dungeon-delver, selling his sword to whoever could pay him for his skills. When he uncovered a particularly intriguing relic from a remote ruin, the Society had contacted him (he could hardly believe it wasn't the other way around) to inquire about it... and about him. Tellen was used to being an outsider due to his mixed human and elven heritage, yet he was invited to apply for a commission in the Society to become a field agent.
Tellen had never been exceptionally personable, but the Master of Swords was nonetheless impressed with his skill with an elven curve blade. The Master of Spells seemed to tolerate him well enough, and the Master of Scrolls was pleased with his sharp wits and keen memory. After a much shorter process than he had expected, Tellen was made a full-fledged Pathfinder.
Passing through the commons area, he couldn't help smiling a bit at the diversity before him: though like most of Golarion the Society was dominated by humans, there were also elves, dwarves, halfings and some half-elves like himself. There were even a couple of well-dressed half-orcs, a few druids - with wolves or tigers at their sides, even! - and Tellen could swear he saw a tiefling or two. Incredible! He'd never felt so at home in his life.
Then he stepped into the briefing room.
The first thing he noticed was a creature whose race he wasn't sure of, as he'd never seen a humanoid with four arms before. The drooling oddity was covered in multi-hued flasks and jars, which clanked about on their straps and buckles as the lab-experiment-gone-wrong simultaneously played Rock Paper Scissors with two different creatures.
One of the freak's opponents was a lanky fellow who, for whatever reason, had a pair of those strange new "firearms" in his possession, each dangling from a leather strap tied to one wrist or the other, bouncing around (rather unsettlingly, as they appeared to be loaded and cocked) as the man competed with two of the first monstrosity's arms in the silly game.
Tellen's heart stopped once he was able to focus his attention enough to realize what was on the other side of the four-armed thing. Standing at least 7 feet tall was some sort of giant, bipedal reptile with sickeningly-wicked talons, especially on its feet. The fear was soon replaced by utter confusion, however, as Tellen noticed that there was a squirrel perched atop the velociraptor's head, and that the squirrel was shouting curses as he (the squirrel) lost yet another game of Rock Paper Scissors against two of the freak's arms.
He must have drifted into the room a bit, because he was snapped out of his awe by the sound of the door slamming shut behind him. He spun around, then jerked his head back at the sight before him: an overly-skinny female humanoid dressed from head to toe in black, skin-tight patent leather. Her face was obscured by a bondage mask, but Tellen was pretty sure she was looking him over hungrily as she caressed the coiled leather whip at her side with one hand and fiddled with a holy symbol of Calistria with the other.
After taking a step back and swallowing hard, he saw two more people in the back corner, behind the holy dominatrix. Standing in silent resignation was a refreshingly ordinary-looking paladin. Next to him was the apparent source of some screaming that Tellen's conscious mind had not fully noticed until now: a pale, skinny elf in wizard's robes and black-dyed hair that covered one eye was shoving a holy symbol of Asmodeus in the paladin's face - almost pressing it against his forehead.
The elf was clearly agitated about something, but Tellen couldn't make out all of his shouted rants; something about condescension and judging. Then he switched to something about cooperation and not starting trouble where there wasn't any, as he started waving some black onyx gems in front of the still-silent paladin.
Trying to gather his wits, Tellen surveyed the nightmarish circus once more before spotting a Venture Captain behind a desk on the other side of the squirrel/velociraptor Rock Paper Scissors team. Approaching cautiously, Tellen intended to ask for directions to briefing room A8-C (as he certainly must have taken a wrong turn and ended up in the psych ward), but stopped in open-mouthed horror as he noticed his own name on a roster on the desk, simultaneously realizing that the VC was already speaking, with a resigned glaze over his eyes:
"...and then return here to report your findings. Any questions?"
Sometimes I feel like maybe when people talk about "power creep" or similar subjects, what really bothers them is an experience like Tellen's (in the spoiler) and it just gets mis-labeled. Just a guess and I could be way off, but thought I'd throw it out there. :)
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I know that some folks are going to yell at me for saying they are having “badwrongfun.”
But I see the two real issues are:
1) Players, in general, got used to how easy things were with scenarios in season 0-2 (with very few notable exceptions). Scenarios designed for 4 where the +1APL didn’t truly adjust for 6 player tables, allowing folks to play up constantly with little threat. They got used to not needing to be prepared with fairly standard adventuring equipment and a fairly standard allotment of consumables. Simply put, they would go into a scenario unprepared, and find out they didn’t really need to be prepared. And for those who want to say I’m painting with too broad a brush or stereotyping… I’m including myself in this group (my first character death was because I went in unprepared in Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment.) So they got in a habit of not needing to be prepared, and not needing to use all of their tactical acumen to survive.
2) I consider power “creep” a thing where a standard build can overpower everything, and so you have to create scenarios to stand up to the standard builds. That isn’t what is happening here. The power “surges” I noted in my above post, were just the way things happen when more material is produced. But frankly the 2nd power surge (the one of scenarios becoming harder and scaled for 6 instead of 4) was necessary before the player power surge of more books to work with. What happens though, with additional options, is that the ability to over optimize becomes easier. You take that standard powerful build, and make it ridiculous when you don’t need to. Part of the problem is the over-optimization that many players enjoy doing. This isn’t necessarily “badwrongfun” insomuch as being disrespectful to the majority of players who don’t want to over-optimize. Simply put, creating a character that is so optimized that even season 4 scenarios present no challenge and can be solo’d by you, is disrespectful to other players.
The casual players can tend to get hurt by the scale-up in power, because the casual player doesn’t like to “need to be prepared.” They don’t want to put that much thought into things. That’s fine. I like some sessions where I can just relax and yuk it up with my friends and we get maybe 2 hours of playing done in 4 or 5 hours of hanging out. That’s why I have a home game group of guys I play with. When the majority of us are in the mood for some major tactical strategy, we hit the dungeon hard, all prepared and try to crush it while the GM tries to crush us. When the majority of us are in the mood to be casual, we just fiddle fart around and just laugh and be silly or blue (or both) and enjoy ourselves.
I’m not sure organized play is the right environment for casual play, because part of the responsibility of a player is to be prepared, and if you aren’t it could mean the death of someone else’s PC. That isn’t fair to them.
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So, Andrew, are you saying that one should be prepared, but not overly prepared? I'm a bit confused; what is the middle ground exactly do you want people to hit?
I, for one, can't wait to see what will happen on the forums once the Strategy Guide is released. :D
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So, Andrew, are you saying that one should be prepared, but not overly prepared? I'm a bit confused; what is the middle ground exactly do you want people to hit?
There is a difference between preparation and optimization.
And everytime I bring up the overly-optimized thing, everyone assumes I’m talking about their archer who is a really good archer, or their Barbarian who has a DPR of 150 or higher.
Please stop assuming what I’m talking about. If what I’m writing isn’t clear enough, ask, like @fantatic rat did here.
Everyone has played at or GM’d for a table with at least one character that was so optimized that he trivialized every encounter. To the point where everyone else wondered what they were doing there. The rogue couldn’t disable or perceive traps better than this guy. The Barbarian couldn’t put out half the DPR of this guy. The bard didn’t know nearly as much as this guy. He was a one man team.
Make an optimized guy. Have fun. I do the same.
But we all know it when we see it, when there is some major cheese going on. This usually is the result of the alchemist/growth cleric/draconic sorcerer/barbarian/dragon disciple build that gets so many strength bumps that all stack together, that even rolling d4’s for damage, they average over 20 per hit. Or the twin double fiend sighted deeper darkness casters tieflings that actually use their abilities to dominate the game without thought for others.
The middle ground is just create a character. Make him good at one or two or even three things. Optimize the heck out of what he’s good at. But don’t optimize so much, that you dominate the game no matter what’s thrown at you (especially at the expense of the fun of others.)
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Yes holding your breath (DC 10,12, 14) is core.
Correction:
Holding your breath (DC 10, 12, 14, etc) is NOT Core.Holding your breath (no check, no check, no check, no check, no check, no check, no check, no check, no check, no check, no check, no check, no check, no check, no check, no check, no check, no check, no check, no check, no check, no check, no check, no check, DC 10, 12, 14, etc) is Core.
Or in the case of my witch, his Fly hex automatically grants a +4 swim check at level 1.
The Core Assumption for PFS includes the River Rat trait, which also grants you +4 to Swim checks at level 1, in addition to +1 damage with daggers.
Another example: Difficult terrain at level 1? Non-core gets to quaff a potion of Feather Step or have their friendly druid/ranger cast it. I don't know of a Core level 1 spell that does the same.
Or you could have the Travel domain for +10ft movement (equivalent to ignoring up to 2 spaces of difficult terrain). Doesn't allow a 5ft step into difficult terrain, but on the other hand, it has benefits outside of difficult terrain as well. Alternatively (or even additionally), you could take Nimble Moves and Acrobatic Steps to ignore difficult terrain. Then you don't need to eat up spell slots or spend gold, either.
Core: Wrist Sheath, move action
Non-Core: Spring-loaded Wrist Sheath, swift action.
The wrist sheath is not Core, making this comparison invalid.
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** spoiler omitted **Getting off-topic here.
An Oil of Bless Weapon is 100gp a pop...not exactly cheap for starting characters. Basically any consumable at 50gp+ each is pretty steep when you start out.
I always carry a rope+grappling hook. :)
I don't consider skill checks a symptom of power creep...I consider "skill check or *die*, [u]*unless* you have magic/special ability to compensate" to be a perfect example[/u] of power creep. :)
My litmus test for power creep for the above situation is where:
1) non-core characters was easily (no extra preparation or magic item required) able to deal with the consequences.
and
2) A Core character had limited options at their disposal and usually had to either pay the penalty or expend greater resources to achieve the same result.Example of above: characters in medium-heavy armor suddenly find themselves underwater.
Core results: drowned. GM ruled you could not drink a potion while underwater.
Non-core results:
Air Crystal.
Potion of Air Bubble/Touch of the Sea in a Potion Sponge.FYI: Potion of Bless Weapon is 50gp, not 100gp. Its a 1st level spell.
Failing to swim does not automatically initiate drowning. You still have 2 x your Constitution score to hold your breath, and then you get Constitution checks starting at DC 10 (getting two harder each round) before the drowning rules commence.
Holding your breath is core.
Walking along the bottom of whatever body of water you are on until you reach shore, is core.
Drowning at Sea because you fall overboard is core.
(tl, snipped)...
Sir please refer to the text at the bottom of every forum page. The most important rule.
Thank you. And please avoid the straw man. I never said that drowning was not core. Your straw man did. I also never said that there are not Core solutions to encounter issues. That's not the topic of the thread or my post. Feel free to start a...
There is no tone. I was simply stating facts.
And it wasn't a straw man argument. You keep arguing that save or die skill checks are part of power creep.
And that is a false argument. I tried to show that there really are no save or die skill checks if you come prepared with core, mundane equipment that isn't all that expensive.
But you obviously want to harp on your argument, so have at it.
