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We're done with RRR, and as I got Ultimate Campaign, we did the necessary conversions. The conversions were easy enough, and now it finally makes sense to make mines, sawmills, quarries and farms!
However, VV requires - or advises - that the PCs' kingdom is around 50-60 hexes large, and as the Kingdom of Cambia was only 11 hexes, they players felt pretty overwhelmed. So we changed to "Kingdom in the Background", but it was definitely sub-optimal, as they felt they were quitters.
How have others fared? You can't really expand your kingdom without building settlements to ensure that Economy and Stability remain at a level where you can make Control checks and expect to succeed. But building settlements takes TIME. Deciding what buildings to make, rolling for magic items, it's a bit of a pain.
My players loved kingdom building, but having to do 40+ hexes before the story could progress, was murder - or Medieval Monopoly as one player called it.
We went for a half and half approach. To start with my players went through the whole process for every hex, and building. But quite early on they took on a 'politician' to help them out (we has actually a wizard/Expert) and who started to take over some of the boring bits.
Eventually, as they tired of things, Charles organised more and more of the mundane work, and they took on more staff ...
Eventually they got to a point where Charles told them what resources he thought would be available over the next year, and they told him how to prioritise spending.
Now they still feel as if they 'own' the country, but rather than doing all the nitty-gritty stuff they act like the board of a company and set priorities.
If they want hexes exploring and colonising - well they have troops to do that. Buildings - well they have a man to plan them and make sure they don't go over budget. A new countryside hex - well they have people who know how to develop that as well.
The Main Characters only get involved when their staff come up with something that isn't mundane - such as a dispute over land, or discovering a nest of Evil Fey or undead monsters. Then they go and do the heroic rulers bit ....
For us that has worked out really well.
Haven't had any issues with claiming hexes, especially if your players (like mine) have a good economy. Have you given your players a decent amount of time to expand? I remember my first Kingmaker game, I gave everyone a full year to expand. Also you really actually don't need your kingdom to be 50 by VV. My players did it with 20 hexes and they did fine. I'd ignore that and let them get back into kingdom building if they like it so much.
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I incentivized my players in this way. They rescued a farmer and his family during exploration and returned them to their village. After staying there a bit, they really liked the place. It was cinched when I had barbarians attack it while they were there, and the villagers mention that it had become a problem lately, especially since they lacked the manpower to staff veteran guardsmen. Suddenly the PCs kingdom was expanding in that direction until they claimed the necessary hex.
Similarly, dwarves claimed "their" gold mine, fey-hating lumberjacks threatened northern few hexes of the Narlmarches, and Mivon started saber ratting, which made them decide they needed a fort to the south at a strategic location. Each of these events spurred an urge to expand and protect resources. YMMV but I would think you could do something similar once you figure out what motivates your players.
So Redcelt32, at what point did you apply these levers, and how frequently? Was this all during RRR or was some of it later?
JohnB, who does the number crunching after your players set the direction? You? Or do you handwave it?
I might be tempted to let them have a say in the direction of their kingdom's development. We'll see.
Odraude, I gave them all the time they wanted, but in the first year, a kingdom can only grow by one hex a month, right. It began to go faster, but it simply seemed to be too much. The same player who called it medieval Monopoly said that the game was becoming something he didn't really sign up for, and that kinda clinched it for me.
Trust me, you don't need 40 to 50 hexes by VV. You can let your players grow at an organic pace that fits them instead of rushing headlong to meet some kind of requirement for the AP. My players beat VV with a third of the recommended hexes, so your players will do fine. Just let them get back to kingdom building and don't worry about rushing it.
But how about the inclusion of Varnhold into the PCs' kingdom?
I appreciate what you're saying and I'm grateful for your reply. I simply think that my players realized that their kingdom building didn't really impact the adventures if they didn't do it - as long as it was done.
But I will ask the players if kingdom building at a slower pace would fit them.
Thanks again! :-)
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Half of my group absolutely loved Kingdom Building, and during game downtime or when we couldn't have a session for one reason or another I usually would get "Okay, so kingdom building time then? =D" from one or two of them. The other half were pretty content to sit alongside or go do other things while they built up, occasionally leaving requests of "my character wants this thing built" for the others to include.
If you can get interested participants together sometime out of game - over skype or some other messenger service - and the uninterested players are okay with not catching the mini-session, you can knock out a few months in an hour, little bits at a time. That's mainly my recommendation: take it just a bit at a time, do a few months a day, and notate when important events that need to be tackled during face-to-face game time happen, and be willing to do a bit of time-skipping to get to the important parts where things happen. And above all, don't expect that your kingdom building will always be one-for-one on-time with your gameplay. If you unbuckle the expectation of "we can't kingdom build past this point until we're ready to move past there in-game", you can do a few months ahead and get that out of the way, again out-of-game if needed and you can get interested players together for a non-session gathering to do it.
Orthos, that's actually a very good idea. I think I'll suggest it to the players. Thank you very much.
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Just to chime in on Kingdom size: I agree with Odraude. The PCs' kingdom is about 26 hexes now, most of which was taken because I applied serious colonial pressure to the PCs.
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Managing the Kingdom building "game within the game" in Kingmaker is half the battle for the GM, and knowing your group really helps.
If you have a bunch of civilization-philes, just add water, no extra work is needed :)
If, like me, your party is made up of roleplayers who know just enough crunch to get by (apologies to my two "crunchy" players), then you may have to work the kingdom building into the the Pathfinder part of the game. All it takes is the mention of "edict" or "consumption" and their eyes glaze over in boredom.
We roleplay council meetings, and I have an agenda for each of the NPCs council members as well as the occasional expert or petitioner. They are NOT always suggesting what is best for the kingdom or the party, and all have their own agendas that get pushed. Most are supportive of the kingdom overall, but a few suggestions have bordered on self interest so far. None are horrible, but lets just say the party has to balance their desires with their own.
What the characters build is driven by council suggestions, pleas from town mayors, or the pressure of outside forces.
Here are some examples:
Internally
- Farmers wanted a granary built after their first big harvest, followed shortly thereafter by a mill. When the party agreed, the farmers gave them extra stores for the winter as gratitude, which translated into extra BP.
- The general starting seeing a need for more troops to guard each settlement once they moved their capitol from Oleg's (Knight's Rest) to the Stag Lords fort (Serpentstone). Unfortunately, they simply did not have the BP to spare in the early days. He was forced to make an agreement with the church of Gorum, to allow their temples in the towns in exchange for them building barracks and supplying chaplains for the army. (Bear in mind the queen already made a pact with a high priestess of Sarenrae to make that religion the official religion of the royal family and the kingdom, and said high priestess is doing everything she can to keep Abadar and Gorum out of the PCs' kingdom. In exchange they party has access to raise dead, commune, and other healing powers (no clerics in the party). THe high priestess was not amused.
- a band of tight lipped dwarves who were obviously keeping secrets moved south and installed themselve on top of the gold mine the party found about 6 months after its discovery. THey did so during winter so by the time the party noticed them, they had been there 3 months already and were well installed. Suddenly there was a push to claim this hex.
Externally
- Scouts from Lebeda were moving down and cutting timber from the Northern Narlmarches. After spies reported they were planning a settlement there, the queen ordered the royal assasin to take a band of barbarians (he is one) and "kill them all and make it look like bandits". Suddently there was a push to claim those hexes. Meanwhile the grand diplomat delayed discussions of the horrid act with the Lebedese representative (starting to sound a little GoT'ish eh?) until those hexes could be claimed.
- A rogue woodcutting settlement founded by bad guys who hate the fey was started along the border of the charter lands. The lumber consortium (Falcon's hollow anyone? ) began harassing fey, killing game decreed protected by the queen, and cutting "the queen's forest". Suddently there was a rash of scary monsters in the woods driving off the woodsmen, and a rush to claim these hexes.
-Mivon sent mercenaries north that were paid by the queen's enemies to attack her capitol. After successfully fending them off and destroying one of their encampments, there was a push to claim some southern hexes and establish forts and strategic chokepoints near the lake.
You can sort of see the trend. I used expansionism, social forces, and others attempting to take power and resources from the party to motivate them into action. They are not required to take action, but there are consequences if they don't. There were also financial and diplomatic options available if they party wished to be more passive.
This may not work for every group, but the ruler in our group is very possesive. She has a charter that says she can develop these lands, which she interprets as "here these are yours". As such, she gets cranky when anyone else invites themselves to her kingdom.
redcelt, that's also a pretty cool way of doing it, and petitioning is definitely something I should look at.
I've decided to take this thread to my players and ask them what they think. I worry that by pushing the kingdom building to the extreme background, I've thrown the baby out with the bath water.
My main issue is that I can see that I could and should make more of an effort. However, I run three campaigns in total, so time is an issue.
Something to think about...
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If you have a bunch of civilization-philes, just add water, no extra work is needed :)
You have no idea how much this applies to my two most Kingdom Building-friendly players.
"Alright, there's your taxes roll, XY BP gained."
"And then Gandhi declared war on us."
"@$#%ing Gandhi!"
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My players only control 4 hexes in VV, 1 city, and like 3 farms. But from the end of chapter 1 to the beginning of VV we only had 2 to 2 years and a half pop up. After VV is over I plan on doing a 6 year time skip and work on side-quests and all, rework the plot and introduce some things better AI foreshadow the events of book 5 and 6.
I find that with the new rules, you get more BP from your Economy rolls and you can build up a kingdom a bit easier.
One thing I house-ruled was that the population growth was divided by 10. I found that having a 6000 people town 2 years after creation while the capital of Brevoy was 19k strong seemed a bit odd.
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Admittedly, population and city growth in the Kingdom Builder does take some liberties. It's a bit weird how my players now have done four months and have turned the fort they were at into a large town already. I don't mind it too much personally, but for those that do, Legendary Games' Ultimate Rulership have alternate build time and population growth rules that are a bit more realistic.
My players were happy with the changes, so thank you all who told me about there not being a need for 50 hexes before VV.
Next issue with them is the complexity of city building. They're thinking about making cookie cutter settlements, which I think might be a good idea.
Basically, their goal is devoting 1 hour to kingdom building, so that's what we're shooting for.
Go with what works for your group. Good luck!
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I figured a lot of the population growth was immigrants from Brevoy trying to get away from the high taxes, greedy nobility, and upcoming civil war ;)
JohnB, who does the number crunching after your players set the direction? You? Or do you handwave it?
It is half and half. I workout (roughly) what the average return would be for a month - then tell them they have 12 times that to spend over the next year. I then add in a few bits as a bonus if I think they deserve it, or it suits my story needs.
For example they were 4 blocks off a full city district - so I gave them a few really cheap bits, that suited me - One was a tenement, one was a Monument to Iomedae - I forget what else, but it was at the same sort of level.
Unsure if you're still looking at this thread but...
If you are a bit worried about the players needing to meet a certain exploration quota, why don't you have them use the exploration edict optional rules in Ultimate Campaign? It'll allow them to send out exploration parties to cover large swathes of the map, all while they also go along and explore. This way, they can still explore at their leisure without feeling rushed for meeting a hex quota.
Good point, but the players will still need to do the bookkeeping, and I think that' s an issue.
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Admittedly, population and city growth in the Kingdom Builder does take some liberties. It's a bit weird how my players now have done four months and have turned the fort they were at into a large town already. I don't mind it too much personally, but for those that do, Legendary Games' Ultimate Rulership have alternate build time and population growth rules that are a bit more realistic.
I think Tonyz is right. Once your kingdom is moderately established and news about it spreads, the population growth would occur naturally and quickly.
I mean, think about it. Depending on how the players run and promote their kingdom, people who have lived as tenant farmers to the established nobility for countless generations in the North now have the chance to own and farm their own land without having to worry about over-burdensome taxation, or being thrown off their land if they didn't produce enough grain. In addition, dozens of cadet noble families and hundreds of minor noblemen and women are spurred south when they see that there is a chance for them to advance their position. In the North, they will always be petty nobles scraping by for their lieges' favors. In the South, if they swear fealty to the players, they can become powerful nobles in their own right.
Finally, both the Northern nobles and commoners know that war is almost certain. Maybe not this month or this year, but soon. The doubts that many might have about the success of the Player's kingdom will probably be replaced with the thought that it is better to risk a trek and establish a new life in Brevoy's colonial hinterlands in the South than to risk death from famine or violence that will almost certainly occur in the North. Perhaps many nobles and well-to-do commoners actually send their families south to one of the more established colonies (i.e., the player kingdom) in order for them to escape the inevitable war.
When I run Kingmaker, I plan on most of the population being colonists from Brevoy coming into the Player's kingdom as though it were Oklahoma Land Run of 1889. However, don't forget the surrounding countries. Assuming my players run a good-aligned kingdom and have the interests of the people close to their heart, they will get colonists and new subjects from every corner of the map. Refugees from Galt fleeing persecution and trying to find stability in their lives. The way south to Andoran is too well-guarded as a result of increased tensions between Galt and Andoran. However, the Player's Kindgom is very close to Galt's northern border. In addition Kellid refugees from Mendev still trying to find a home for their wandering families after Sarkorsis' fall may find a place in the Player's Kindgom, and the players could probably utilize Kellid Druids in their war (or negotiations) with the Fey. And don't forget all the other less-than-friendly River Kingdoms run by various tyrannical megalomaniacs. While most would hesitate at first, many people would probably rush by the hundreds and then by the thousands to the chance to move themselves, their trade and their families to a safe burgeoning kingdom whose rulers actually care about their people.
I had SO much fun with the refugee Galtan nobles...
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Assuming my players run a good-aligned kingdom and have the interests of the people close to their heart, they will get colonists and new subjects from every corner of the map.Nobles from Galt who want to use the PCs kingdom as a power base to retake their own lands. Razmiran priests who bring the words of their god to a needy people ...
Indeed. You can even make it really complex, such as the conflicts that arise between the Galtan nobles who just want to start a new life versus the Galtan nobles who want to recapture the glory of old Galt.
And I do find your idea of Razmiran priests coming in intriguing. I may have to steal it.
Let the Razmirians and the Rahadoumi run into each other. Get your citizens clear and charge admission for the fallout. =)
Has anyone made a system to where kingdom building merges into the background fully?
What do you mean? The modules define a "Kingdom in the background" option where the players don't need to run their kingdom, it just grows by itself and each module from RRR onwards has a sidebar that says "If you're using Kingdom in the Background, by the end of this module the kingdom is such-and-such a size, spanning from here to there, with these settlements".
I've taken a different tack, and am inflicting my own custom realm-building rules on my players which steal liberally from the Fate RPG. It's early days yet, but here's the google doc if anyone is interested.
@RobRendell - some very interesting ideas here. I love Fate, so I will definitely need to take a look at this when I have some more time.
@RobRendell : I have read your document 2 or 3 times, and I'm really interested by your ideas. I was already curious when your presented your Issue-Driven Kingdom Events a few months ago, and I like how they work within your alternative ruleset.
However, my players and I just started the kingdom making using the UC rules and I want to give those rules a real chance, since my players (some of them) are really excited.
My problem is that I am bored by the kingdom building... And mind you, I was excited, and I couldn't wait to use them, but I feel that in the 2 last game sessions, my players were playing a game in which I play no part. They are building at fixed costs using a fixed amount of BP, to boost their stats in order to beat a fixed Control DC.
Sure, I could decide arbitrarily to give them bonuses or raise the DC "because worgs are threatening the south border" or "the kobolds are your allies", but then, why bother play the mini-game if we don't follow the rules as written?
My players have quickly mastered the rules, and they are now pretty efficient to play a kingdom turn, but I find it hard to incorporate roleplay in it.
Here's a typical kingdom turn:
-"Ok, roll a Stability check. OK, we get it, we lose one Unrest"
-"We build a road here, here, and here. And we claim this hex. And we build a Library in the city" (no chance of failure)
-"Let's go, roll an Economy check. Yes, we get 32! So we get 10 BP!"
-"Ok, Event phase!"
And now, the players turn to face me. Since it's the Event Phase, everything I will tell them is automatically suspicious. And even though I sugarcoat it with a cool flavor text, it still boils down to : "you get a +1 to all stats for one month because good weather" or "roll a Stability check. You miss the DC, so you lose 1d6 BP, because bandits".
Long story short: what are your tricks to make the kingdom building feel more alive? What do you do to make it less segmented (Step 1, Step 2...) ? How to you present your kingdom events in a nicer way? How to you implement challenge and storyline in the system without it feeeing like the GM fudging all the rolls?
I think it sounds like your players have mastered the kingdom-building to the point where it can be the fun little distraction I think it was meant to be.
I think that it says a few times in the AP that kingdom building is meant to spice up the adventure, which is still the main thing. With your players being so adept at it, you can proceed with the real stuff much faster (says the guy who experiences that entire sessions go by with kingdom-building because the players get confused - sessions that leave out 2 players, who really aren't THAT into it).
One way to make it more fun for yourself is to pre-roll the events and then build a storyline. In my campaign, I have
- Mevon bandit-squatters in a town at the southern edge of the kingdom
- A group of fey trying to attract Nyrissa's attention by sabotaging everything
- Cthulhu-style cultists trying to explore the will'o'wisp-infested island on Candlemere (because there are weird dungeons below)
- An adventuring party (other than the PCs) exploring the entire kingdom and sometimes finding magic items or taking care of lower-level threats
- And visiting dignitaries to reflect the kingdom's rising fame.
I can't do all that on the fly, but with a few rolls, I started seeing patterns, and now that keeps me entertained. And even if that doesn't happen, to be honest, I can use the GM downtime to kiss my non-playing wife, make coffee for everyone, or simply re-read the parts of the adventure coming up. :-)
Pre roll events, build a storyline, if there are multiple pop centers have each of them want something different and do politicking with the players and each other.
Pennywit's kingdom reports are a good idea, though it probably requires more prep work between the sessions. I'll look into that.
I preroll the events, and I think those are not my main concern. It's more the fact that the kingdom building feels more like a "players VS the board" minigame, with no involvment from the DM. RobRendell's alternate ruleset specifically adresses that problem with the dynamic of edges and twists, while decreasing the amount of book-keeping.
I think that I'm looking for a good reason to prefer UC's rules since I read Rob's...
One of the thing we have done is incorporate roleplaying and character action into events. So for instance, if there is unrest due to an event, rather then just rolling for stability, we roleplay out a scene of dealing with the conflict in character, using skills abilities and whatever else might be appropriate. The result of that encoutner can either make the stability check harder, easier, or eliminate the need for it entirely.
It makes those sorts of things less tedious, and less like playing civilization and more a part of a pathfinder game. We have also on occasion, not rolled events, but instead the gm plans a few months worth of events prior to the session based on whats in the tables. Particularly in the case where we can act on the events in character I am fine with them not actually being random as a player. Its more fun when the dm is actually prepared for a thing, then when he has to improvise (most of the time).
One of the thing we have done is incorporate roleplaying and character action into events. So for instance, if there is unrest due to an event, rather then just rolling for stability, we roleplay out a scene of dealing with the conflict in character, using skills abilities and whatever else might be appropriate. The result of that encoutner can either make the stability check harder, easier, or eliminate the need for it entirely.I think I'm going to move to this ...
It really brings the kingdom building turn sequence to life in my opinion. If you use one of the lovely fan made kingdom tracking excel sheets you can handle the nuts and bolts rather quickly (though sometimes we have in character debates on whether the general should get his second garrison in the capital, or the magister a new library, but that is fun in and of itself), making the show piece of each round the event.
If the dm simply PLANS each rounds event. IE rather then rolling PICK, assasination attempt, or bandit activity, or what have you, and then preps a little bit of activity around it, it can be alot of fun.
I also recommend having a few notes down for what might happen if any particular roll is failed (economy, stability, or loyalty). Just a few ideas like, a failed economy roll means an artisans strike because of dropping prices, and what kinds of things the pcs might need to do to molify that, things like that. Just a couple sentances and a few numbers (skill check dcs or npc stat blocks for instnace) of prep can make a world of difference there.
Chuckbab, I have had similar struggles with the kingdom rules (we're using UC). Back at the start of running RRR, I wrote:
As an aside, I’m still trying to work out how to run the kingdom events. If they are just some kingdom checks, as set forth in the rules, then the specific event (feuds, slavers, etc.) is just so much window dressing. If the PCs have some agency in how to handle the situation – I suppose I’m thinking more of ongoing events than one-offs – should that influence the kingdom check? Or perhaps replace it entirely? For now I’m trying to make the window dressing as interesting as I can, while upgrading some events to full encounter status.
The problem, I think, is that players don't have a lot of meaningful input into the system. They get to decide how to expand your borders and what to build in your cities, but that's really just a resource management minigame - it's only a small part of actually governing. And to model that small part, the system is both complex (so much so that I ended up writing an application to manage it) and fairly easy to game.
So the challenge, as I see it, is to (a) remove as much of the busywork and number-crunching as possible using spreadsheets or whatever, (b) to incorporate politics into the roleplaying, and (c) to figure out how to let the roleplaying feed back into the system.
I've tried just about every idea found in this forum:
Pre-rolling (or pre-determining) events: I have found this useful for knowing what is coming up, allowing the DM to foreshadow events months in advance. It also gives you time to come up with interesting details about the event so it's not just: "there's a feud, roll a d20."
Investment deals: i.e. making the players decide where their startup funds come from (and what conditions are attached) instead of just giving them the 50 BP. This is really useful for introducing competing factions (foreign and domestic) to the players and for giving their kingdom some goals. Keeping their backers happy will lead them down paths they might not have chosen otherwise. And if they piss anyone off, you have fodder for some good conflict!
Reports: I really like this, but for me at least it's incredibly time consuming so I only do it for special occasions. It's a good way to showcase internal conflicts for the players, though. If they consistently refuse the wishes of their important NPCs, or favor one NPC over another, how will the NPCs react? What happens when two of the NPCs hate each other's guts and begin to cause trouble? etc.
Inserting Politics: in the AP, Brevoy does next to nothing after handing the players 50 BP. Get them involved in the domestic politics of their sponsor. Get them involved in disputes with their colony neighbors - before Varnhold disappears, they will likely want to expand west into the Kamelands, looking for farmlands, since they can't expand in other directions. Have them get dragged into River Kingdom political maneuvering before book 5. The players are sitting on top of a potentially lucrative trade route between Restov and Mivon, and as a result powerful and wealthy people are going to meddle in their affairs for good or for ill.
And there's probably some other ideas I'm forgetting.
That reminds me ... has anybody done a hex map of either Brevoy or the River Kingdoms on the same scale as the Kingmaker maps?
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n7of?Stolen-Lands-and-Southern-Brevoy-map-in-C iv-5