|
If a fellow PC, or perhaps their Mount/Companion/Familiar, die and are SOL until the end of that adventure, can I reanimate them as an undead minion if I have the means? They'll turn back into regular corpses at the end of the adventure and be ready for proper resurrection at the end if doable, I know that much.
|
Bear in mind this clause in Raise Dead, if that's what you were thinking of:
A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can't be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age.
Now if they plan on replacing them with a new one after the adventure, then that wouldn't be as much of an issue. Still, I'd definitely say ask first.
|
|
Well, if the player objects, that's one thing, but that's a concern outside of Organized Play "physics" - am I *technically* able to do such a thing (and I figure most players would prefer at least getting to play as an undead minion rather than just waiting patiently for the adventure to resolve)?
The raise dead clause adds its own issues - at the end of the adventure, undead minions will cease to be, meaning in a PCs case they'll be back to their plain, dead selves. Does having been ever reanimated at all prohibit them from being raised, or can they be raised once they go from undead to dead?
Wait- what? So you're going to turn a deceased party member, a fellow, a mate, a friend, a confidante into a slavering, blood-thirsty and unthinking undead minion (or an animal to which you are familiar, at least on a first-name basis with)?
Where does it say that when you cast animate undead on a corpse it "turns into a regular corpse" later on, like when it's convenient?
And why? Magic that creates undead is most often inherently evil, since undead are by and large evil creatures.
Alternately, you could cast gentle repose to preserve the body for restorative magic later, rather than following an evil undead rabbit down an evil undead rabbit-hole.
Creating undead is an inherently evil act. It's an issue.
You might want to include the specifics of your scenario to glean an answer particular to this question.
|
|
Wait- what? So you're going to turn a deceased party member, a fellow, a mate, a friend, a confidante into a slavering, blood-thirsty and unthinking undead minion (or an animal to which you are familiar, at least on a first-name basis with)?
Where does it say that when you cast animate undead on a corpse it "turns into a regular corpse" later on, like when it's convenient?
Normally, it doesn't. But in Organized Play, any undead minions a PC creates go away at the end of an adventure - in what manner they "go away", however, is deliberately left unclear.
And why? Magic that creates undead is most often inherently evil, since undead are by and large evil creatures.Creating undead is an inherently evil act. It's an issue.
Not for arcane spellcasters and Reanimator Alchemists of the Pathfinder Society, it isn't! Just because a spell has an alignment descriptor doesn't by itself make its use an act of that alignment (the infamous infernal healing spell seems to me like it was made up solely to drive that point home). That much is old news I'm very clear on. :)
I've already given all the specifics I have to offer. This is an hypothetical question for the future, since my Reanimator/Chirurgeon Alchemist is one level shy of discovering his long-sought lesser animate dead formula.
|
|
The spell might end, but he has been reanimated as undead and therefore would not qualify for a raise dead. The act of actually being an undead creature for any period of time is what is being checked here. Whether the spell wears off or not is irrelevant. If he was OK with paying extra for a ressurection that's one thing, but I doubt he would.
|
|
Okay, that's one interpretation. I'd like a second opinion, though - some Paizo insider's verdict would be nice.
One thing that bothers me about that interpretation is: If a character dies, gets reanimated as undead, is killed as an undead, then is resurrected, does that mean they're never eligible for the raise dead spell ever again, regardless of the circumstances and consequences of future deaths?
|
|
Well I overlooked something when I posted about the spell ending. The spell duration is instantaneous, so there is no spell in effect anyway. It makes sense though, you cannot detect a necromancy aura from undead using Detect Magic. So, the rule that all spells end at the end of a scenario is irrelevant. There is no duration to end.
|
|
The issue is that the player can no longer use raise dead to come back to play. You have now taken a 16pp cost and raised that to 32pp as you now need a resurrection to get the player up and going.^^This^^
Really? Wow. Ok then.
That brings up this question, then: Let's say the dead player is so much wealthier in Prestige or gold than patience that they'd be willing to pay 32 PP or however much ungodly sum of gold resurrection costs just so they can play in SOME capacity (or are the sort of person who thinks it's worth it just for the fun of playing an undead monster, etc.) rather than wait for the adventure to resolve - or the party's willing to shell out that much extra to help pay for resurrection, whatever. IN THAT EVENT, should that be done, if that same PC dies on future adventures and is not reanimated as undead, can they be raised with raise dead then, or are they "forever tainted" by having EVER been reanimated as an undead monster and henceforth can never benefit from the raise dead spell again?
|
|
Really? Wow. Ok then.
That brings up this question, then: Let's say the player is so much wealthier in Prestige or gold than patience that they'd be willing to pay 32 PP just so they can play in SOME capacity (or are just that titillated by the idea of playing an undead monster) rather than wait for the adventure to resolve - or the party's willing to shell out that much extra to help pay for resurrection, whatever. IN THAT EVENT, should that be done, if that same PC dies on future adventures and is not reanimated as undead, can they be raised with raise dead then, or are they "forever tainted" by having ever been reanimated as an undead monster and henceforth can never benefit from the raise dead spell again?
One of the things that Mr. Brock seems to dislike is having to repeatedly answer what basically amounts to the same question, but with different circumstances attached. He, to all appearances, seems to favor simple rulings, without having to rule on every circumstance that could happen.
This isn't the same question. What Brock said so far is clear as far as it goes, but this is a new question that necessarily arises from the ruling and the ambiguous wording of the raise dead spell (as cited above).
|
|
In which case it belongs in the Rules Questions forum; he's got enough PFS-specific questions eating up his time.
Given the way lapses between adventures work, this might be a PFS-specific question, insofar as the answer might be different in Organized Play than in most cases out.
I'm sure if I'm bothering him too much, he'll tell me himself (and I'm pretty sure there are other Paizo staff members floating around who would be able to answer this, it doesn't need to be him) - he doesn't need you to be his majordomo.
|
That brings up this question, then: Let's say the dead player is so much wealthier in Prestige or gold than patience that they'd be willing to pay 32 PP or however much ungodly sum of gold resurrection costs just so they can play in SOME capacity
You're a pathfinder.
Corpses are not difficult to find, particularly after an event that turned a fellow pathfinder into a corpse.
By all means, animate something ELSE , anything else but the character, and hand the dead characters player the sheet for the undead you just created and just let them run it.
You get your undead abomination. They get to play. They don't have to burn half their PP. Everyone wins.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
|
One thing that most parties seem to overlook is that if you find yourself in a large enough city it can be possible to get your table mate raised in game so that they can continue to play their character for the rest of the scenario.
We tried to do that in Rivalry's End, but were not allowed to. Apparently due to in-game time constraints. How long does the raise dead ritual take? (Get to temple, work out payment with priest, spell itself, etc...)
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
|
We tried to do that in Rivalry's End, but were not allowed to. Apparently due to in-game time constraints. How long does the raise dead ritual take? (Get to temple, work out payment with priest, spell itself, etc...)One thing that most parties seem to overlook is that if you find yourself in a large enough city it can be possible to get your table mate raised in game so that they can continue to play their character for the rest of the scenario.
The listed price for Raise Dead assumes that the cleric is given a day to prepare the spell. If you just grab a random cleric, they might have something else prepared.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Netopalis, I've never run it that way. If the fighter gets killed in the middle of Goka, I imagine it would take about an hour to find a cleric, and maybe another hour to purchase the material components, to bring him back. Maybe another hour to get the first restoration.
I imagine that most priests who aren't crawling around in dangerous tombs don't bother to prepare most of their spell slots every day.
|
|
Source?
The listed price for Raise Dead assumes that the cleric is given a day to prepare the spell. If you just grab a random cleric, they might have something else prepared.
From the CBR in spellcasting services:
The indicated amount is how much it costs to get a spellcaster to cast a spell for you. This price assumes that you can go to the spellcaster and have the spell cast at her convenience (generally at least 24 hours later, so that the spellcaster has time to prepare the spell in question, though you may be lucky enough to find someone who has it prepared that day or a spontaneous caster who knows it).
|
The issue is that the player can no longer use raise dead to come back to play. You have now taken a 16pp cost and raised that to 32pp as you now need a resurrection to get the player up and going.^^This^^
So does that mean a player is pretty much screwed out of ever raising if their character is turned to an undead as the result of an attack? An immediate example comes to mind of a scenario for levels 1-2 involving a Shadow and a Wight, both monsters that turn a killed PC into an undead.
|
|
So does that mean a player is pretty much screwed out of ever raising if their character is turned to an undead as the result of an attack? An immediate example comes to mind of a scenario for levels 1-2 involving a Shadow and a Wight, both monsters that turn a killed PC into an undead.The issue is that the player can no longer use raise dead to come back to play. You have now taken a 16pp cost and raised that to 32pp as you now need a resurrection to get the player up and going.^^This^^
My question exactly.
@BigNorseWolf: My question is based on an hypothetical situation. The point was never that "I really really wanna do such-and-such", I was just asking whether it was technically possible. One conceivable reason one might want to do this, for example, is if a PC died early in the adventure in a fight against a whole bunch of low-HD monsters (or monsters of any variety that cannot be reanimated as undead), and reanimating the PC would mean the resulting undead would have a worthwhile number of HD when there were no comparable options available - and as I said in the beginning, this would be under any condition that raising the character properly was out of the question in that adventure anyway.
|
|
and reanimating the PC would mean the resulting undead would have a worthwhile number of HD
I don't think you realize how Skeletons/Zombies work:
Hit Dice: A skeleton drops any HD gained from class levels and changes racial HD to d8s. Creatures without racial HD are treated as if they have 1 racial HD. If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can't be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell. A skeleton uses its Cha modifier (instead of its Con modifier) to determine bonus hit points.
Hit Dice: Drop HD gained from class levels (minimum of 1) and change racial HD to d8s. Zombies gain a number of additional HD as noted on the following table. (size based)
|
|
Further, undead who are killed, that is, brought below 0 hp, are DESTROYED. No raise dead, no resurrection, you've just bumped it to a true resurrection or wish/miracle.
...undead don't disappear into nothing when they are destroyed. There's still something left for resurrection to use. It even says right in resurrection's description that people who were undead are legal targets.
|
Quick Question, someone posted this earlier:
A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can't be raised
The last line. With Aasimars and Tieflings classed as Outsiders (so they cant be enlarged etc), does this not mean that Aasimar and Tiefling characters cannot also be raised .. thus their only means of return are the much higher resurrection pp costs? Being a native outsider dosnt matter, its just the fact they are an outsider as the spell does not discriminate.
|
|
Quick Question, someone posted this earlier:
A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can't be raised
The last line. With Aasimars and Tieflings classed as Outsiders (so they cant be enlarged etc), does this not mean that Aasimar and Tiefling characters cannot also be raised .. thus their only means of return are the much higher resurrection pp costs? Being a native outsider dosnt matter, its just the fact they are an outsider as the spell does not discriminate.
Native Subtype
This subtype is applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.
|
|
So does that mean a player is pretty much screwed out of ever raising if their character is turned to an undead as the result of an attack? An immediate example comes to mind of a scenario for levels 1-2 involving a Shadow and a Wight, both monsters that turn a killed PC into an undead.The issue is that the player can no longer use raise dead to come back to play. You have now taken a 16pp cost and raised that to 32pp as you now need a resurrection to get the player up and going.^^This^^
Yes, that is exactly what it means. The description of Raise Dead is quite clear. A Resurrection however, would allow you to return to life. A level 1 or 2 PC getting killed would not have to worry about Raise Dead or Resurrection. They wouldn't be able to afford either of them.
|
|
Netopalis, I've never run it that way. If the fighter gets killed in the middle of Goka, I imagine it would take about an hour to find a cleric, and maybe another hour to purchase the material components, to bring him back. Maybe another hour to get the first restoration.
I imagine that most priests who aren't crawling around in dangerous tombs don't bother to prepare most of their spell slots every day.
This.
Plus if you can move (by magical means) to a large city or find your party in a large city your faction may very well have made plans for your untimely death. I mean they must already know what is going to happen, how else could they know where you are going to go before your venture captain even assigns the mission.
|
|
and reanimating the PC would mean the resulting undead would have a worthwhile number of HDI don't think you realize how Skeletons/Zombies work:
Hit Dice: A skeleton drops any HD gained from class levels and changes racial HD to d8s. Creatures without racial HD are treated as if they have 1 racial HD. If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can't be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell. A skeleton uses its Cha modifier (instead of its Con modifier) to determine bonus hit points.Hit Dice: Drop HD gained from class levels (minimum of 1) and change racial HD to d8s. Zombies gain a number of additional HD as noted on the following table. (size based)
Ok, you're right. So much for that idea.
|
Yes, that is exactly what it means. The description of Raise Dead is quite clear. A Resurrection however, would allow you to return to life. A level 1 or 2 PC getting killed would not have to worry about Raise Dead or Resurrection. They wouldn't be able to afford either of them.So does that mean a player is pretty much screwed out of ever raising if their character is turned to an undead as the result of an attack? An immediate example comes to mind of a scenario for levels 1-2 involving a Shadow and a Wight, both monsters that turn a killed PC into an undead.The issue is that the player can no longer use raise dead to come back to play. You have now taken a 16pp cost and raised that to 32pp as you now need a resurrection to get the player up and going.^^This^^
Well, it might be possible for a large party of PCs, like 6 or 7, to be able to afford a Raise Dead by chipping in at the end of the module. That still leaves the two needed Restorations, of course...