Situation: low-level paladin has a non-magical weapon, and hasn't used smite for the day yet. Enemy is an incorporeal shadow demon. Obviously, smite evil will bypass the DR on the demon, but.... it doesn't let you overcome the rules about hitting an incorporeal, does it?
As I'm reading it, the pally can't touch it, smite or no smite. Is this correct?
Oh, I do. :P
I'm GMing this one....
Okay, im still new at this but I no this will come up in my campaign, so can anyone explain why it wouldnt? Im not doubting, I just dont no the reason behind it BC smite evil always came off as a divine touch atk to me, but I would like the reason if ya could spare so I will be able to explain to inthegrp
Well, here's how I'd run it:
Incorporeal Creatures have a 50% Miss Chance to all incoming non-damaging hostile effects, and take only 50% of all damage dealt unless the attacking creatures too are incorporeal, or have the Ghost Touch property, and are immune to non-magic weapons.
Smite states the character may target any creature within sight as a Swift Action to activate.
In this scenario, I'd rule that the ghost would get a 50% miss chance against the Smite ability. Since the ethereal's immunity to non-magical weapons is not DR based, the PC's weapon has to be magical for them to even damage them (and receive Smite's benefits).
On the plus side, if the PC used Divine Bond, it would bypass that issue. Hope that helps!
On the other hand, Smite Evil is a supernatural effect, which are magical in nature and will damage incorporeal creatures.
Still half damage, though.
I am perversely glad that there does seem to be wiggle room on the issue, partly because a) I think a paladin who is smiting evil ought to be able to hit a demon, as that seems true to the spirit of the class/ability if not RAW, and partly because b) I always feel dumb when I ask a rules question and people unanimously agree on the solution. If there's discussion, I at least feel it was a valid question to ask, ha.
Thanks for all the input thus far!
Yet, Smite Evil does not make the weapon magical, the pre-requisite required for the weapon to deal even 50% damage. The Smite Evil ability deals additional damage, and bypasses DR, but the weapon effectiveness lessening property and the non-magical immunities are separate entities from DR itself. Smite Evil enhances the bearer's attacks, but is not a hostile action that deals damage of its own, like for example, a Breath Weapon; and if the weapon can't deal damage, then Smite Evil, by default, deals no damage. Even with a magic weapon, it only deals 1 per instead of 2 per.
Since Smite Evil is a hostile effect that targets creatures and doesn't actually do damage, it also has a 50% chance to automatically fail against the ethereal.
On the plus side, if it does hit, the Paladin can use Divine Bond and hack away without fail.
Incorporeal Creatures have a 50% Miss Chance to all incoming non-damaging hostile effects, and take only 50% of all damage dealt unless the attacking creatures too are incorporeal, or have the Ghost Touch property, and are immune to non-magic weapons.
The incorporeal condition has no such provision as a 50% miss chance for non-damaging spells and effects to take hold.
Incorporeal: Creatures with the incorporeal condition do not have a physical body. Incorporeal creatures are immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Incorporeal creatures take half damage (50%) from magic weapons, spells, spell-like effects, and supernatural effects. Incorporeal creatures take full damage from other incorporeal creatures and effects, as well as all force effects.
The spell blink specifically lists this as a feature of phasing into and out of the ethereal plane.
Ethereal and incorporeal are not the same thing.
The weapon has to be magical. Smite makes the weapon deal more damage if it does hit, but it has nothing to bypass the rules for incorporeal creatures.
The paladin could not touch the creature because his hands are not a magic weapon.
Incorporeal (Ex) An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source. Although it is not a magical attack, holy water affects incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature (except for channel energy). Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
Ha, awesome. I learned something new.
I believe he was talking about the lay on hands art.
Okay, so smite evil is a ower granted by the divines that u can only do so many times a day. Since this ower lets us add our cha mod to the dmg, granted an ac against target, and bypass dr...cant it be argued that smite evil is a divine (magic) effect that enhances our weapons just like a magic enchant would do but it being temporary and only against one target? Or is it better to viewed as a single divine body enhancement acting similar to the dodge feat etc etc?
I get it in my head but my grp is filled with a bunch of 3.5ers and I wanna be able to explain it to them bc they view it as a divine spell and not as a divine enhancement.
Edit-nvm I get it. A pally can smite evil an incorporal target and can gain an ac to their cha mod BUT actually hitting it normal combat comes into lay in actually determining in dmging it. And I believe the smite would still be effected by the 50% chance to miss as well. Meaning one coukd smite evil an incorporal being and if it actually asses the 50% to hit, they get their cha mod ac gain but if their weapon isnt magical they cannot take advantage of the enchance hit/dmg that comes along with it.
Anything can be argued, but the rules are clear. Smite is not an enhancement, and does not make the weapon magical or empower it in any other way. It empowers the paladin by increasing his to hit, and damage. It also gives him a deflection bonus against the target of the smite. The paladin could have his current weapon sundered, pick up another weapon and not lose the current smite. If smite was actually on the weapon then disarming him of that weapon would cause smite to be lost until he got the weapon back or drew a new weapon and activated a new smite.
Short version: You need a magical weapon.
Edit-nvm I get it. A pally can smite evil an incorporal target and can gain an ac to their cha mod BUT actually hitting it normal combat comes into lay in actually determining in dmging it. And I believe the smite would still be effected by the 50% chance to miss as well. Meaning one coukd smite evil an incorporal being and if it actually asses the 50% to hit, they get their cha mod ac gain but if their weapon isnt magical they cannot take advantage of the enchance hit/dmg that comes along with it.
There is no 50% miss chance with weapon based attacks. That was in 3.5.
In Pathfinder if you have a magic weapon and you hit the AC, then you hit, the creature, but you only do half-damage. Smite requires you to hit the creature. With a non-magical weapon you have a 0% chance of hitting.
edit:Just like a ranger's favored enemy, smite applies a bonus to hit and extra damage. Nothing in either ability suggest that it allows you to hit incorporeal creatures. Yeah smite improves your AC, and lets you bypass DR, but that has nothing to do with hitting an incorporeal creature.
but smite isnt a weapon base atk. smite is basically in itself a nonlethal target effect, once the creature is targeted(smited) u gain an enhancement in hit/dmg/ac against the target. U dont have to actually hit the target for it to smited, u just have to hit the target to use the increase in dmg. From what im reading I dont see anywhere how the smite can actually miss, only that they can miss when atking a smited target.
Edit-maybe the 50% chance shouldnt apply since its basically like the dodge feat. U target a certain creature and gain 4 to AC against said target. Yeah, ill go with the 50% chance doesnt count against smite since all it is is an enhancement bonus against a target. Granted from the divines but not actually magical.
Smite is not an attack at all. It just makes you better at killing things, and if the attack never hits then the damage from smite never takes place.
My point with my "Weapon based attack" statement was that the weapon has to land in for for the smite damage to apply. The weapon can not land if the weapon is not a magic weapon, just like for a ranger(such as the guide variant) which chooses a specific creature, if there is no attack landed, then his extra damage never kicks in.
Smite is also NOT an enhancement bonus. It is untyped. An enhancement is a specific type of bonus.
PS:I am aware that you agree smite should not apply, but I wanted to let you know why.
The weapon has to be magical. Smite makes the weapon deal more damage if it does hit, but it has nothing to bypass the rules for incorporeal creatures.No, the weapon doesn't have to be magical. The ATTACK has to be magical. Huge difference.
Actually if you are using a weapon which is what I was discussing the weapon has to be magical.
It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons
So like I said with regard to actual weapons the weapon has to be magic.
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Whole quote, please....It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities.
And the sentence right after the part you insisted on being wholly quoted is.
It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms.
At what point is your smite damage applied? At the point when you hit it with a weapon. If your weapon is not magical what form of attack is it? A non-magical one of course.
Smite evil is not its own attack. It is a increase to your attack, just like sneak attack or a ranger favored enemy is an increase to that attack. It does not change the damage type of the attack (except to bypass all DR as explicitly noted).
It is not weapon damage + smite evil (holy/divine/some other type) damage. It is all just weapon damage.
e.g, a +1 flaming longsword does 1d8 + 1 + 1d6 fire.
Smite evil with the same weapon would not be 1d8 + 1 + 1d6 fire + 1/level holy. It is just 1d8 + 1 + 1/level + 1d6.
Everything but the 1d6 is physical damage. The 1d6 is fire. If your weapon is not magical you cannot inflict physical damage in an incorporeal (in this example of course the flaming sword is magical so gets its damage applied - modified of course by the 50% damage reduction).
Smite evil is not used to make the attack so no it can not be read that way. It is a supernatural ability that makes you better at what you do.
It is a supernatural ability that boost our attack bonus, and boost your damage, but it is not an attack in and of itself. That is why I compared it to the guide ranger ability that boost attack and damage bonuses. The weapon is not magical. Smite has no language to make the weapon magical. It improves the paladin, just like a spell can improved the person casting the spell. Using a spell in that manner would not make a weapon able to hit an incorporeal creature, so neither can a supernatural ability.
Actually a spell such as divine favor is closer to smite than that ranger ability since they are both magical in nature, and apply to attack and damage rolls.
That is only saying smite evil bypass DR, but smite evil itself is not an attack. If it was an attack on its own then it would need an action to attack with. If you are saying it uses the weapon, then it is not an attack.
Smite evil is no more of an attack than sneak attack is, and not sneak attack itself is not an attack. It is an ability that improves your damage if your attack lands.
Attacks is a well defined term. There just happen to be more than one way to attack. You can attack with some SU's, but not all. You can attack with spells, and SLA's. You can attack with weapons. Now since the smite provides additional damage you need the weapon damage to also apply, and nothing in smite allows for that.
adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite.
That shoes the the smite damage which is equal to the paladin level is added to the weapon damage, but like I said the weapon damage never takes place so the smite damage never gets applied.
The reason is because nonmagical weapons can't hit the creature, and smite improves the wielder not the weapon. With that aside a magical affect on a weapon does not make it into a magic weapon, even if smite did target the weapon.
but smite evil is not an actual atk though. When we read about it, it states that the erson uses a swift action to target someone for smite within eye sight meaning smite is just basically getting a buff against said target. U dont actually atk when smiting, u are targeting just like u would if u were using the feat dodge where u target a certain creature to get a buff of ac against said target. What u have qouted imo means that when u atk a creature under ur smite effect u bypass the dr. u dont actually smite AND atk with the buffs ALL as a swift action and then in same round do ur normal atks, no u smite as a swift action (aka target) and THEN when u atk u gain said bonuses against said target as a standard action. 2 different actions (swift and standard) dont make it same
U dont actually do dmg when u do the action smite evil, when u atk the target of smite u gain those bonuses against said target. Meaning smite evil isnt in itself an atk, more of a targeting of said creature to gain divine buffs against said creature. The atks u use are not actually part of smite, they just benefit from it.
Incorporeals are harmed by Supernatural "Abilities" not Supernatural "Attacks", so no need for Smite Evil to be an Attack if you insist on parsing words.
Second, Incorporeals are immune to non-magical attacks, but that doesn't necessarily mean that non-magical weapons can't hit inncorporeals, they just won't do any damage. It depends on how you interpret the RAW.
Also, Lay on Hands was mentioned up thread. LoH is (Su) and will absolutely affect incorporeal undead. Whether it falls under the full damage clause for Channel Energy is debatable.
yes, u can use smite on an incorporal creature. U just wont be able to benefit from the atking kf u dont have a magical weapon BUT u will still get the ac bonus against them.
So u can still use smite evil on incorporal but uonly reaceive the ac bonus against them if u dont have a magical weapon to hit them
Also been digging and in 3.5 smite was delivered with a single melee atk and the bonuses applied to that atk whereas in athfinder, smite is delivered thru targeting and u gain the bonuses on all atks to said target. Looking at it, athfinder is a bit more op than 3.5 was. But was thinking the smite being an atk maybe came from 3.5 version since it states its delivered with an atk and in athfinder its stated its delivered as a swift action of targeting said creature and the bonuses apply to all atks against said creature until its destroyed or u rest.
So 3.5 yes smite evil is a supernatural atk whereas in athfinder smite evil is a supernatural buff against said target. One of those differences between rule sets.
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So then, divine favor being a spell makes all of your attacks count as magical? Bulls strength too? And enlarge? That's a magical buff as well.
Smite evil doesn't make your attack a supernatural attack. It is an ability that grants you a number of specifically listed bonuses. It'd be nice if smite evil allowed you to hit incorporeal creatures. But, sadly, that's not one of the listed bonuses.
This is simple:
Smite Evil gives you bonuses against the chosen (Evil) creature.
Smite Evil allows you to bypass the DR of the chosen (Evil) creature.
Nowhere does it state that Smite Evil makes your weapon magical.
Nowhere does it state that Smite Evil allows you to ignore the Incorporeal quality.
Summary: Smite Evil will give you bonuses to attack and damage an Incorporeal creature but you will still require a magical weapon and will still suffer the 50% damage penalty.
By 2nd level every person and their dog should be carrying a potion of Magic Weapon (a whopping 50gp). If you don't you are asking to die at the 'hands' of an incorporeal creature. This is really a no-brainer.
- Gauss
Drachasor, you have one too many steps in there.
The Attack is the weapon or spell that makes an attack roll. The Smite Evil effect is a booster effect. It does not have ANY verbage to state that it bestows the supernatural quality on that attack and there is no general rule that states it does.
Thus, it is not most reasonable to assume that these attacks are supernatural attacks.
Again, your flaw is in declaring normal attacks that are boosted by Smite Evil 'Supernatural attacks'. The ability is not making an attack. The Ability is boosting your attack. There is a degree of separation here that Pathfinder uses on a regular basis to define things. Violating that degree of separation is what causes this sort of confusion.
On the flip side, by level 2 you have Lay on Hands, that can and will affect an incorporeal and since Smite Evil does not limit things to weapon attacks it should apply to a Lay on Hands attack.
- Gauss
So your premise is that any supernatural effect that adds to a weapon attack bestows the supernatural property on that weapon attack?
Can you provide proof for this because I am unable to find a statement to this effect anywhere in the game.
- Gauss
The problem with your Produce Flame comparison is that Produce flame specifically states it has the fire subtype. You still have yet to show that a supernatural rider effect turns a normal attack into a supernatural attack.
- Gauss
No, what I am saying is that a rider effect does not change the type of attack unless it states it does. Smite Evil is a rider effect.
Lets put it another way, casting Sun Metal on a non-magical sword does not make it able to bypass DR/Magic. Why? Because even though the sword has magic cast upon it does not make it Magical.
Now, Smite Evil is a rider effect, just because you have an attack that is boosted by Smite Evil does not mean it is suddenly a supernatural attack. It does not state anywhere that it is.
Anyhow, we can keep arguing this back and forth but you have your thoughts on this and I have mine. Perhaps other people can chime in and present theirs. (That, and sleep calls.)
- Gauss