Paying for the difference is how ALL magic item upgrades are done or are you talking about them perpetually paying gold as the sword levels even if they're not upgrading it anymore just because the enhancement bonus increases?
My point is that there is no game mechanic for purchasing upgrades to class features. A seventh level druid cannot spend any amount of gold to get the animal companion of a tenth level druid. A black blade is a class feature.
Boon Companion works for a 7th level Druid/3rd level Fighter.
I don't know that the rules allow you to enchant a blackblade given it is a special item given by a class ability.
If I were to allow it, I would not allow any modifications to base abilities. I would allow you to add special properties up to +5 at cost.
My feeling is that the class ability gives you a +5 weapon. You don't have to pay the cost of a +5 weapon. So you would only have to pay the cost of the property.
This may seem like a good idea at first. You may find it not to be later on. A weapon can only go up to +10 total bonus. So you would limit your ability to add Magus arcane pool enhancements to the weapon. You would basically freeze the properties of your weapon and limit your own abilities by enchanting a blackblade.
Once enchanted, your blackblade can't be changed. You can't simply buy a new weapon or change to a different blade. Enchanting a blackblade with other properties seems cool in the short-term, but it is extremely limiting in the long-term.
Your 11th level magus has a +3 black blade with a 14 ego. You added +1, keen and flaming, for a +3 total enhancement. The total upgrade costs would be 72,000 (+6 enchantment) minus 18,000 (+3 enchantment) = 54,000. The ego modifier goes from +3 to +6 based on the cost, a +3 increase in ego. The black blade's ego is now 17. This is hardly advanced mathematics.I think we are overly complicating how to calculate the black blade's ego in order to build an argument that a black blade cannot be enchanted/upgraded. The black blade's ego is what it is. If you want to add an ability to the blade, there's an ego modifier. Simple.I'm an 11th level Magus. I want to enchant my black blade to be +1 Agile Flaming. What's the ego modifier? What level of enhancement bonus does it have?
Ok, now what happens when that character levels up to 13? Normally, that would bump the enchantment from +3 -> +4, and the ego from 14 -> 16. But the ego change for going from a +6 weapon to a +7 weapon is 0. Does his weapon's ego just not advance, even though the table says it should?
Conversely, what if he waits until 13 to add that +3 enchantment? He starts with a +4 black blade with 16 ego. By your math, that would now cost 98,000 (+7 enchantment) minus 32,000 (+4 enchantment) = 66,000. So it costs him more to enchant his weapon after he's leveled up. Additionally, his weapon is now going from an ego modifier of +4 to +6 based on the change in cost. That would mean his base ego of 16 goes up to 18.
So, by your logic, a 13th level magus who enchanted his weapon at level 12 paid 54k gold and has an ego of 17, and one who did it after hitting 13 paid 66k gold and has an ego of 18.
Did I mess anything up? Am I overlooking anything?
It seems to me that any Black Blade would clearly fall into the category of "Specific Magic Weapon". Just my $.02.
Your 11th level magus has a +3 black blade with a 14 ego. You added +1, keen and flaming, for a +3 total enhancement. The total upgrade costs would be 72,000 (+6 enchantment) minus 18,000 (+3 enchantment) = 54,000. The ego modifier goes from +3 to +6 based on the cost, a +3 increase in ego. The black blade's ego is now 17. This is hardly advanced mathematics.I think we are overly complicating how to calculate the black blade's ego in order to build an argument that a black blade cannot be enchanted/upgraded. The black blade's ego is what it is. If you want to add an ability to the blade, there's an ego modifier. Simple.I'm an 11th level Magus. I want to enchant my black blade to be +1 Agile Flaming. What's the ego modifier? What level of enhancement bonus does it have?Ok, now what happens when that character levels up to 13? Normally, that would bump the enchantment from +3 -> +4, and the ego from 14 -> 16. But the ego change for going from a +6 weapon to a +7 weapon is 0. Does his weapon's ego just not advance, even though the table says it should?
Conversely, what if he waits until 13 to add that +3 enchantment? He starts with a +4 black blade with 16 ego. By your math, that would now cost 98,000 (+7 enchantment) minus 32,000 (+4 enchantment) = 66,000. So it costs him more to enchant his weapon after he's leveled up. Additionally, his weapon is now going from an ego modifier of +4 to +6 based on the change in cost. That would mean his base ego of 16 goes up to 18.
So, by your logic, a 13th level magus who enchanted his weapon at level 12 paid 54k gold and has an ego of 17, and one who did it after hitting 13 paid 66k gold and has an ego of 18.
Did I mess anything up? Am I overlooking anything?
Bobson's pretty much got it. It's what I was trying to say, but with all the fancy numbers behind it that I was too lazy to look up :).
In case Paizo eventually makes a FAQ on this based on popular opinion I'd like to say that I don't think the black blade should be eligible for further enchantments. The black blade has a bunch of unusual abilities and restrictions which normal magic items don't. To me it seems kind of like a familiar in the form of a weapon. The rules don't say that you can't enchant it. They also don't say that you can't alter it to shoot laser beams. Depending on your DM maybe you can do both. I advise the OP to allow neither (unless laser beams fit the theme of your campaign)
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In case Paizo eventually makes a FAQ on this based on popular opinion I'd like to say that I don't think the black blade should be eligible for further enchantments. The black blade has a bunch of unusual abilities and restrictions which normal magic items don't. To me it seems kind of like a familiar in the form of a weapon. The rules don't say that you can't enchant it. They also don't say that you can't alter it to shoot laser beams. Depending on your DM maybe you can do both. I advise the OP to allow neither (unless laser beams fit the theme of your campaign)
True, it is somewhat similar to a familiar, but what stop you from casting spells on a familiar and making them permanent?
Giving it permanent inherent bonuses?You can cast on a familiar most of the stuff that can cast on a magical beast.
The Black blade is a magical item, so it can be the target of the effects, even permanent effects, that target magical items.
The problem is how you should determine the cost of enchanting it. If shouldn't give a extra benefit to the magus but it shouldn't be an extra hindrance.
There are a few different ways to do that, but after all is said and done, if the magus get a +5 equivalent sword he should pay for a +5 equivalent sword by using his class abilities and/or money.
He is level 12? the base +3 is paid by his class abilities, then the other 2 level of abilities are paid normally, like increasing a +3 sword (32.000 gp).
He get to level 13 and the base value become +4? He has a +4 sword with 32,000 gp of extra enchanting done, that isn't enough to have the +2 levels of extra abilities active (that would require another 8.000 gp, but it is enough for a extra +1. So only 1 level of extra abilities would be available (chosen when the magus has increased his level) from the former +2 level of enchantment until he has paid the full cost, i.e. another 8.000 gp.
Same thing for the extra characteristic and other stuff. It is not really hard to do.
Casting spells on the black blade wouldn't bother me. Enchanting it would. Spells, including Permanence, are quite different from enchanting an item.
There's no RAW evidence I can find that you can't enchant it although how you'd go about enchanting it seems a little unclear, especially in regards to any potential effect on Ego. I don't really like the idea of the Magus being encouraged to cram as many enchantments as possible in at low levels while they're relatively cheap. I also feel like the black blade should grow in power as you level rather than as you spend gold to enchant it. Apparently James Jacobs felt similarly though his opinion is not an official ruling and of course could change at any time.
Diego - Your system of activating and deactivating abilities as you level until you pay the gold to "unlock" them seems fairly sensible, but I don't think it is really in the rules, is it?
In case Paizo eventually makes a FAQ on this based on popular opinion I'd like to say that I don't think the black blade should be eligible for further enchantments. The black blade has a bunch of unusual abilities and restrictions which normal magic items don't. To me it seems kind of like a familiar in the form of a weapon. The rules don't say that you can't enchant it. They also don't say that you can't alter it to shoot laser beams. Depending on your DM maybe you can do both. I advise the OP to allow neither (unless laser beams fit the theme of your campaign)True, it is somewhat similar to a familiar, but what stop you from casting spells on a familiar and making them permanent?
Giving it permanent inherent bonuses?
You can cast on a familiar most of the stuff that can cast on a magical beast.The Black blade is a magical item, so it can be the target of the effects, even permanent effects, that target magical items.
The problem is how you should determine the cost of enchanting it. If shouldn't give a extra benefit to the magus but it shouldn't be an extra hindrance.
There are a few different ways to do that, but after all is said and done, if the magus get a +5 equivalent sword he should pay for a +5 equivalent sword by using his class abilities and/or money.He is level 12? the base +3 is paid by his class abilities, then the other 2 level of abilities are paid normally, like increasing a +3 sword (32.000 gp).
He get to level 13 and the base value become +4? He has a +4 sword with 32,000 gp of extra enchanting done, that isn't enough to have the +2 levels of extra abilities active (that would require another 8.000 gp, but it is enough for a extra +1. So only 1 level of extra abilities would be available (chosen when the magus has increased his level) from the former +2 level of enchantment until he has paid the full cost, i.e. another 8.000 gp.Same thing for the extra characteristic and other stuff. It is not really hard to do.
There's nothing remotely like this in the game already - eidiolon evolution points are closest - but it's a really clever way of handling it if you want to permit it.
Again, the only arguments against enchanting a black blade seems to be a perceived imbalance or inability to perform simple math. That guy who plays the blade bound magus must really be gaming the system because he gets to enchant his already enchanted sword. Seriously, every GM I've played with has a certain amount of common sense, and set's the item enchantment costs. Just because the rules may not be crystal clear about something does not mean it should automatically be disallowed. Also, keep in mind that the "rules" for item enchantments are just guidelines, so if the GM feels it's too inexpensive to enchant a black blade, then he could adjust the costs accordingly. A black blade is a magical weapon that also happens to be an intelligent item. There are actually rules/guidelines for adding further enchantments for both categories already in the game. I think this is all much ado about nothing.
Just a reminder to everyone who hasn't, hit FAQ here on the OP.
If we can hit 20 or 30 our odds jump.
This question keeps coming up and a simple 1 line FAQ could settle it.
Everytime this comes up ego progression and shifting cost as the blade levels gets pointed out
Everytime it gets pointed out it's a generally inclusive not exclusive rule set
Everytime a few quote-unquote "rules lawyers" come in humming Follow the Yellow Brick Road and ignore any points they can't disprove while clinging to the one valid point they probably have along with their house adaptations (which, 3 times of 4, have been shoehorning an intelligent weapon into other weapon rules), it wouldn't exactly be unbalancing. (Honestly to their credit it probably wouldn't, but then again neither would Monk cantrips, but that wouldn't be RAW either)
Let's just try and get the darn thing FAQ'd. Let's either get enchanting black blades specifically struck down or specifically propped up. If Paizo devs say "Nope, they were right all along" somehow, I'm even okay with it. I do think it's already in RAW they can't be, but given the number of times this question has appeared in the last year, it's obviously not CLEARLY the RAW, so at this point I'd rather be proven wrong than read a 5th multireply thread on this subject.
This is not simple math. The pay as you go option is the only reasonable option that fits with RAW. If I had to choose between that and no enchanting I would go with "pay as you go".
The ego is the real problem. The black blade doesn't follow standard progression and further modifiers are based on a different system of progression.
Yes, it's a hassle and I'd just stick with the whole minor artifact/class feature/special materials stance. I don't find this to be unreasonable. RAW are still silent on whether the black blade can be further enhanced or how that works. RAI? I don't know and won't know until we get a FAQ.
I hit FAQ.
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Casting spells on the black blade wouldn't bother me. Enchanting it would. Spells, including Permanence, are quite different from enchanting an item.
There's no RAW evidence I can find that you can't enchant it although how you'd go about enchanting it seems a little unclear, especially in regards to any potential effect on Ego. I don't really like the idea of the Magus being encouraged to cram as many enchantments as possible in at low levels while they're relatively cheap. I also feel like the black blade should grow in power as you level rather than as you spend gold to enchant it. Apparently James Jacobs felt similarly though his opinion is not an official ruling and of course could change at any time.
Diego - Your system of activating and deactivating abilities as you level until you pay the gold to "unlock" them seems fairly sensible, but I don't think it is really in the rules, is it?
There's nothing remotely like this in the game already - eidiolon evolution points are closest - but it's a really clever way of handling it if you want to permit it.
No, the system I depicted isn't in the rules and I can't claim it is something I developed. It is the best solution we developed in a forum discussion about the same argument several months ago.
The problem is that if you stop the Blabebound magus from further enchanting his sword at high levels he is disadvantaged.
If you allow him to enchant his weapon but don't make him pay the full difference he will strongly advantaged.
The other possible solution was to have him always pay as if enchanting a +5 weapon.
That will stop him from adding much to the weapon at low level and so keeping his weapon roughly on the same power level of a martial of his same level when not using his arcane pool.
Both solutions are non-official.
The Blackblade is thematically strong, but to keep it up to the challenges of high level play you need to spend several arcana to have the possibility to get abilities for which other players will only have to spend money.
Look the arcana that add abilities beyond the basic set:
Bane Blade (Su): Whenever the magus enhances his weapon using his arcane pool, he may spend 1 additional point from his arcane pool to add the bane special ability to the weapon. The magus must be at least 15th level before selecting this arcana.Devoted Blade (Su): Whenever the magus enhances his weapon using his arcane pool, he may spend 1 additional point from his arcane pool to add either the anarchic, axiomatic, holy, or unholy special ability to the list of available options. A magus may only add one of these abilities if it matches his own alignment. The magus must be at least 12th level before selecting this arcana.
Ghost Blade (Su): Whenever the magus enchants his weapon using his arcane pool, he may spend 1 additional point from his arcane pool to add the brilliant energy and ghost touch special abilities to the list of available options. The magus must be at least 9th level before selecting this arcana.
If you are level 15+ and spend an arcana on it you can add Bane and tailor it against the enemy of the moment.
Very good as I can choose against the bane target, but with a little money a normal magus can have that against his main enemies 7-8 levels earlierHoly at level 12. I look my players, the two that are better at creating their characters have done whatever they could to squeeze holy on their weapons at level 7-8.
The CL of the holy ability is only 7, so they were capable to have their weapons enchanted by the group wizard working in conjunction with the oracle.
So my impression is that after reaching mid level game (around level 9) the power of the black blade start to wane and that you need to spend more and more character resource to be capable to keep on par with other martial characters that instead would be capable to use the same resources to get better.
The current campaign is the first where we had a magus (and he is a blackblade) and we have just reached level 7 so maybe I am mistaken, but that is the impression I get.
Probably if you count on the campaign reaching high levels it is better not to take the bladebound archetype.
Again, the only arguments against enchanting a black blade seems to be a perceived imbalance or inability to perform simple math. That guy who plays the blade bound magus must really be gaming the system because he gets to enchant his already enchanted sword. Seriously, every GM I've played with has a certain amount of common sense, and set's the item enchantment costs. Just because the rules may not be crystal clear about something does not mean it should automatically be disallowed. Also, keep in mind that the "rules" for item enchantments are just guidelines, so if the GM feels it's too inexpensive to enchant a black blade, then he could adjust the costs accordingly. A black blade is a magical weapon that also happens to be an intelligent item. There are actually rules/guidelines for adding further enchantments for both categories already in the game. I think this is all much ado about nothing.
Unfortunately, this is the rules forum, where we argue the minute details of wording under the assumption that all players are expert min-maxers and all GMs are automatons only capable of enforcing exact RAW. Things like "common sense", "guidelines", and such stop at the border. Abandon all reasonableness, ye who enter within.
The other possible solution was to have him always pay as if enchanting a +5 weapon.
That will stop him from adding much to the weapon at low level and so keeping his weapon roughly on the same power level of a martial of his same level when not using his arcane pool.
I like this solution a lot. It fixes all the concerns I had about the issue.
- Torger
Official Rules Response
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9qux
Magus, Black Blade: Can I use Craft Magic Arms and Armor to increase my blade's enhancement bonus?
No, nor can you use that feat to add other properties (such as flaming) to the black blade. You can use your arcane pool to temporarily add abilities to your black blade.
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9qux
Magus, Black Blade: Can I use Craft Magic Arms and Armor to increase my blade's enhancement bonus?
No, nor can you use that feat to add other properties (such as flaming) to the black blade. You can use your arcane pool to temporarily add abilities to your black blade.
If I wake up on Sun. naked with no memories, a 1/8 of a bottle of Jack in my hand and next to a passed out stripper, with a goat mysteriously staked to the roof and a new tattoo in bright yellow on my chest that reads "I Am A Golden God", that still won't make this weekend as awesome as the PDT finally confirming the RAW on this did.
Thank you, [raises a glass], and here's to the death of this issue in the rules forums*.
(*As for house rules, wish the other side the best of luck with that in those forums. It's been a fun year+ opposing you guys.)
Huh. I would assume that also goes for things like Greater Magic Weapon, then?
Didn't quite expect that, I assumed that you couldn't STACK sources of enhancement bonuses, but the stronger one would take effect.
Also seemed like 'flat cost' weapon enhancements (non-plus equivalent) should have worked fine. Wierd.
Huh. I would assume that also goes for things like Greater Magic Weapon, then?
I don't see how GMW has anything to do with the topic at hand, which is how CMAaA interacts with the black blade.
I just saw GMW as doing something related to what CMW does, so I wanted to confirm that.
Although I see that by a strict reading of the FAQ, you can use GMW or even CMW on the black blade as long as it isn't increasing the black blade enhancement bonus... That still allows totally substituting the enhancement bonus (the entire 'package', going from the paradigm of only the highest enhancement between Bracers and Armor has any effect), as well as non-plus equivalent abilities. Of course, even if you could apply a non-stacking/increasing CMW enchantment that would still be a dumb idea since it's just wasting the entire class ability (or the CMW enchant when the black blade surpasses it). EDIT: Except when another character is wielding the black blade, where all the black blade abilities are gone and it just acts as a MW weapon, any other CMW/GMW effects should continue to work then.
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I just saw GMW as doing something related to what CMW does, so I wanted to confirm that.
You can cast greater magic weapon on a black blade as on any other intelligent weapon. It doesn't stack with the blade's magic properties, but the magus's arcane pool stacks with whichever enhancement bonus is larger.
Glad to have some closure on this issue. Thank you Sean and the PDT!
So be it. :)