|
I think I asked this before, but never got a satisfactory answer so I am trying again.
This is regarding organized play.
I have a Cleric about to obtain levels in Wizard. As many of us know, there are divine and arcane spells with the same name and same effect, so the spells are the same for all purposes except the origin.
Will my character automatically get access to the arcane version of a divine spell (like Magic Weapon, Protection from Evil, Dispel Magic, etc.) available to his cleric class once a level of Wizard is obtained and be able to place that spell in the Spellbook?
If not, then what about when he gets level in Mystic Theurge and can prepare divine spells in arcane slots? (Read p219/220 Replacing and Copying spellbooks)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you are asking about additional spells in your spell book, then you only get them when you level in wizard or add spells from scrolls or some source like that into your spellbook. Just because you can cast a 1st level cleric spell like Comprehend Languages, does not mean you have it in your spellbook to cast as a wizard spell also.
In short, no, having access to a divine version of a spell through cleric levels does not allow you to have access to an arcane version of that spell just because you also have wizard levels. You must copy it into your spellbook some how.
Also, each level of Mystic Theurge does NOT allow you to add two spells into your spellbook. That is a wizard class feature.
Does that answer your question or were you asking something different?
Each class tracks its spells list seperately. As an example if you get access to a spell as a cleric, and that spell is also a divine spell you do not get to add it to your spellbook.
In other words the wizard does not get access to that spell.
The Mystic Theruge is a special exception to the normal rules about sharing spells, and it can be done, but you must use spell slot one higher level than what the spell would normally use.
PS: If your group cares about power, and the GM does not pull punches I would not suggest a mystic theurge. If the GM is willing to "be less tactical" then the MT might be ok..
PS2: You also do not get new spells as a wizard when going MT. <--A rule I dont like.
|
|
Each class tracks its spells list seperately. As an example if you get access to a spell as a cleric, and that spell is also a divine spell you do not get to add it to your spellbook.
In other words the wizard does not get access to that spell.
The Mystic Theruge is a special exception to the normal rules about sharing spells, and it can be done, but you must use spell slot one higher level than what the spell would normally use.
PS: If your group cares about power, and the GM does not pull punches I would not suggest a mystic theurge. If the GM is willing to "be less tactical" then the MT might be ok..
PS2: You also do not get new spells as a wizard when going MT. <--A rule I dont like.
I know the MT share spells ability requires a one level bump in the spell level slot, but does that mean it goes into he book as a higher level spell? Even with that requirement the higher level spells will be cheaper than buying a scroll for it.
Since this is organized play bringing the MT is not a matter of what group it is, as I play all over the place.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I know the MT share spells ability requires a one level bump in the spell level slot, but does that mean it goes into he book as a higher level spell? Even with that requirement the higher level spells will be cheaper than buying a scroll for it.
It doesn't go into the spell book at all. It just gets prepared into the spell slot during spell preparation.
If you look at it another way, your cleric spell list acts similarly to a spellbook for your wizard slots, only all spells prepare one level higher. There isn't an actual spell book though, only the usual process to prepare divine spells.
It's kind of funny. The rules on scribing scrolls don't say anything about not being able to scribe the divine version of a spell into your wizard's spellbook.
RAI it isn't allowed, but I find the RAW funny.
I'm fairly sure it isn't allowed by RAW either.
Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook
Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods.
A wizard can only learn new spells that belong to the wizard spell lists.
Spells Gained at a New Level
Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll
Independent Research
Emphasis mine.
Scribing scrolls is actually a completely separate process from adding spells into a spell book despite the similarities. Even if you can scribe a scroll of a cleric spell by means of having cleric levels, you still can't record the spell in your wizard spell book by means of that feat.
As far as I know there's no way to to add a divine spell to a wizards spell book, not even the Samsaran alternate racial trait can do that.
|
|
I know the MT share spells ability requires a one level bump in the spell level slot, but does that mean it goes into he book as a higher level spell? Even with that requirement the higher level spells will be cheaper than buying a scroll for it.It doesn't go into the spell book at all. It just gets prepared into the spell slot during spell preparation.
If you look at it another way, your cleric spell list acts similarly to a spellbook for your wizard slots, only all spells prepare one level higher. There isn't an actual spell book though, only the usual process to prepare divine spells.
Read p219/220 Replacing and Copying spellbooks
|
|
It's kind of funny. The rules on scribing scrolls don't say anything about not being able to scribe the divine version of a spell into your wizard's spellbook.
RAI it isn't allowed, but I find the RAW funny.
I'm fairly sure it isn't allowed by RAW either.
Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook
Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods.
A wizard can only learn new spells that belong to the wizard spell lists.
Spells Gained at a New Level
Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll
Independent ResearchEmphasis mine.
Scribing scrolls is actually a completely separate process from adding spells into a spell book despite the similarities. Even if you can scribe a scroll of a cleric spell by means of having cleric levels, you still can't record the spell in your wizard spell book by means of that feat.
As far as I know there's no way to to add a divine spell to a wizards spell book, not even the Samsaran alternate racial trait can do that.
The way is to for the MT to prepare the divine spell in an Arcane slot.
Now the MT has an arcane spell in memory can can add it to a spell book.|
|
It's kind of funny. The rules on scribing scrolls don't say anything about not being able to scribe the divine version of a spell into your wizard's spellbook.
RAI it isn't allowed, but I find the RAW funny.
I'm fairly sure it isn't allowed by RAW either.
Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook
Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods.
A wizard can only learn new spells that belong to the wizard spell lists.
Spells Gained at a New Level
Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll
Independent ResearchEmphasis mine.
Scribing scrolls is actually a completely separate process from adding spells into a spell book despite the similarities. Even if you can scribe a scroll of a cleric spell by means of having cleric levels, you still can't record the spell in your wizard spell book by means of that feat.
As far as I know there's no way to to add a divine spell to a wizards spell book, not even the Samsaran alternate racial trait can do that.
The way is to for the MT to prepare the divine spell in an Arcane slot.
Now the MT has an arcane spell in memory can can add it to a spell book.|
|
A wizard can only learn new spells that belong to the wizard spell lists.
Right, like Comprehend Languages and Magic Weapon?
This is beginning to turn out like the last time I posted this, a lot
of answers which do not address my basic premise and skip over rules.
A MT Can prepare divine spells in arcane slots.
A prepared spell in an arcane slot can be added to a spellbook.
Since this is organized play there is no scroll scribing.
|
answers which do not address my basic premise and skip over rules.
Let's try this properly, then.
Will my character automatically get access to the arcane version of a divine spell (like Magic Weapon, Protection from Evil, Dispel Magic, etc.) available to his cleric class once a level of Wizard is obtained and be able to place that spell in the Spellbook?
No. When your character takes a level in Wizard, he only gains spells in his Spellbook as per the Spellbook Class Feature of the Wizard rules in the PRD. Having other spellcasting classes has no bearing on this, regardless of the class. Being a Sorcerer would also not allow you to autmatically add your Sorcerer spells into your spellbook.
Having said that, since PFS does not differentiate between divine and arcane scrolls, if you already have any scrolls of the shared spells, you can potentially use those to copy the spell into your wizard spellbook.
|
A prepared spell in an arcane slot can be added to a spellbook.This is false.
OP is referring to this:
A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If he already has a particular spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook. The process wipes the prepared spell from his mind, just as casting it would.
I don't think this was intended to allow a MT to write divine spells prepared in arcane slots into their spellbook, but I can see why the OP thinks that RAW allows it, and I don't personally have a good counterargument.
A prepared spell in an arcane slot can be added to a spellbook.This is false.OP is referring to this:
A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If he already has a particular spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook. The process wipes the prepared spell from his mind, just as casting it would.I don't think this was intended to allow a MT to write divine spells prepared in arcane slots into their spellbook, but I can see why the OP thinks that RAW allows it, and I don't personally have a good counterargument.
A Wizard can scribe a prepared spell into his book, but that doesn't supersede the general rule that a Wizard can only learn spells on his list.
|
|
OP is talking about spells that are on his Wizard list, but that are also on the Cleric's list.
For example:
Mystic Theurge does not have Protection from Evil in his wizard's spellbook.
MT can cast Protection from Evil as a cleric.
MT can prepare Protection from Evil in a 2nd level wizard slot.
Protection from Evil is now a spell on the wizard spell list prepared using a wizard slot.
Does this make it eligible to be written into the spellbook?
And actually I think it would:
The components of these spells do not change, but they otherwise follow the rules for the spellcasting class used to cast the spell.
So if you prepare it in the wizard slot it follows the rules for wizard spells, which includes the ability to copy it from a prepared slot into a spellbook - since it is after all a spell you can also learn and cast as a wizard.
I would not attempt this in organized play. You don't want to have to argue legality every time you sit down to a game, whether or not you're right.
A wizard can only learn new spells that belong to the wizard spell lists.
Right, like Comprehend Languages and Magic Weapon?
This is beginning to turn out like the last time I posted this, a lot
of answers which do not address my basic premise and skip over rules.A MT Can prepare divine spells in arcane slots.
A prepared spell in an arcane slot can be added to a spellbook.Since this is organized play there is no scroll scribing.
The rules say you can add wizard spells. Casting it from the arcane slot, does not make it a wizard spell.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
1) Will my character automatically get access to the arcane version of a divine spell (like Magic Weapon, Protection from Evil, Dispel Magic, etc.) available to his cleric class once a level of Wizard is obtained and be able to place that spell in the Spellbook?
2) If not, then what about when he gets level in Mystic Theurge and can prepare divine spells in arcane slots? (Read p219/220 Replacing and Copying spellbooks)
1) No and no.
2) No.
OP is talking about spells that are on his Wizard list, but that are also on the Cleric's list.
For example:
Mystic Theurge does not have Protection from Evil in his wizard's spellbook.
MT can cast Protection from Evil as a cleric.
MT can prepare Protection from Evil in a 2nd level wizard slot.
Protection from Evil is now a spell on the wizard spell list prepared using a wizard slot.
Does this make it eligible to be written into the spellbook?And actually I think it would:
The components of these spells do not change, but they otherwise follow the rules for the spellcasting class used to cast the spell.So if you prepare it in the wizard slot it follows the rules for wizard spells, which includes the ability to copy it from a prepared slot into a spellbook - since it is after all a spell you can also learn and cast as a wizard.
I would not attempt this in organized play. You don't want to have to argue legality every time you sit down to a game, whether or not you're right.
If that is what he is saying then it is still iffy, and I agree. For organized play I would not try it.
|
|
I don't think this was intended to allow a MT to write divine spells prepared in arcane slots into their spellbook, but I can see why the OP thinks that RAW allows it, and I don't personally have a good counterargument.There is a very good counter argument. "Can you have a wizard spellbook that legally has the spell Cure Light Wounds in it? Since the answer to that divine spell is obviously no, this goes for all other divine spells as well. It does not matter what slot that spell is sitting in, it can't be copied to a spellbook because it's not a legal result.
The OP was not talking about CLW or other divine spells that are not also on the wizard list:
Will my character automatically get access to the arcane version of a divine spell (like Magic Weapon, Protection from Evil, Dispel Magic, etc.)
Magic Weapon, Protection from Evil, and Dispel Magic are all on the wizard list as well as the cleric list. A wizard having Magic Weapon in his spellbook is a perfectly legal result.
This is not about a MT copying spells in his spellbook that wizards can't learn, it's about a MT copying spells that wizards can learn cheaper.
This is why I jumped in to defend the OP - no one else seemed to have read the question properly.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Since there seems to be some confusion (even though it's been explained a couple of times), the OP seems to be asking this:
An Xth level Cleric\Yth level Wizard\Zth level MT knows spell A from his Cleric spells. Spell A is on the Wizard spell list as well, but he does not know it from that list. The rules for scribing spells into a spellbook state that a Wizard can copy out any spell he currently has prepared (with an assumption that it must be in one of his Wizard spell slots).
Since:
-an MT can prepare a divine spell in an arcane spell slot
-the spell is on the Wizard spell list, and so is generally available to him through his Wizard class levels
-a Wizard can copy a spell he has prepared (unwritten: in one of his Wizard spell slots) into his spellbook
theoretically he could learn the arcane version of the spell for 'free' (paying the costs to copy a new spell down).
With that all said, SKR said the answer is a no. I'd be interested to know if that's off-the-cuff or FAQ-flavored.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well rules wise we have our answer. One supporting reason thematically is that arcane spells and divine spell are different when made into scrolls, even if the same spell. The same reason a wizard/magus can't use a divine scroll to copy to his/her spell book is the same reason the Mystic Theurge can't copy the divine spell, memorized in the arcane slot, to his/her spell-book.
Activate the Spell:
[...]
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
The user must have the spell on her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.
[...]
Why would they insist so clearly about scrolls having arcane or divine versions of spells, when they put the quick and dirty "The user must have the spell on her class list." just below?
They keep talking about type... which they specify to be "arcane or divine".So a spell of "Cure light wounds" from a cleric is divine, and a "Cure light wounds" from a bard is arcane. A scroll scribed by a bard would NOT be usable by a cleric and vice versa.
You couldn't scribe your divine spells into a scroll and then put them into your wizard spellbook, even if that spell is on the wizard class list.
Spells can have different material components depending on whether they are cast by Wizards or Clerics. So we can assume the gestures are different too. Why would a Wizard be able to tap into divine energies to invoke a spell. Why would a Cleric be able to manipulate the arcane energies to invoke a spell.
If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash) and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash).
Spells from clerics are "typed" divine and wizards need the arcane version to scribe it to their book.
Wands do not have that restriction, they use a spell trigger activation method, so all the necessary magical energy is already stored in the wand, which also means you cannot use wands to transfer spells into spellbooks.
I like the theory, but in practice my answer would always be no: the Mystic Theurge ability allows him to use a Wizard spell slot (of one level higher) to prepare an additional cleric spell. It is still a divine spell. The wizard's ability to copy spells he has prepared into his spellbook only applies to arcane spells prepared in wizard spell slots. The MT's ability does not turn a divine spell into an arcane one: what it actually does is turn an arcane spell slot into a divine one, of one level lower (or vice versa). The spell that fills that slot is still a divine spell, and is thus not eligible for putting into his Spellbook, regardless of whether the spell exists on the arcane spell list or not.
If, for some reason, I did allow it to happen, I would rule that the spell is still one level higher than the divine version, so there would be no real advantage to doing it.
Addendum to my post above:
Combined Spells (Su): A mystic theurge can prepare and cast spells from one of his spellcasting classes using the available slots from any of his other spellcasting classes. Spells prepared or cast in this way take up a slot one level higher than they originally occupied. This ability cannot be used to cast a spell at a lower level if that spell exists on both spell lists. At 1st level, a mystic theurge can prepare 1st-level spells from one of his spellcasting classes using the 2nd-level slots of the other spellcasting class. Every two levels thereafter, the level of spells that can be cast in this way increases by one, to a maximum of 5th-level spells at 9th level (these spells would take up 6th-level spell slots). The components of these spells do not change, but they otherwise follow the rules for the spellcasting class used to cast the spell.
So it's safe to assume that if you prepare any Cleric spell requiring a divine focus in a wizard spell slot, you still use your holy symbol to cast that spell. Thus the spell itself is still a divine spell, even if "readied" in an arcane spell slot.
The spell follows the rules of the class that cast it (DC for saving throw and duration and such), but the type of the spell (arcane or divine) does not change.
|
Since there seems to be some confusion (even though it's been explained a couple of times), the OP seems to be asking this:
An Xth level Cleric\Yth level Wizard\Zth level MT knows spell A from his Cleric spells. Spell A is on the Wizard spell list as well, but he does not know it from that list. The rules for scribing spells into a spellbook state that a Wizard can copy out any spell he currently has prepared (with an assumption that it must be in one of his Wizard spell slots).
Since:
-an MT can prepare a divine spell in an arcane spell slot
-the spell is on the Wizard spell list, and so is generally available to him through his Wizard class levels
-a Wizard can copy a spell he has prepared (unwritten: in one of his Wizard spell slots) into his spellbooktheoretically he could learn the arcane version of the spell for 'free' (paying the costs to copy a new spell down).
With that all said, SKR said the answer is a no. I'd be interested to know if that's off-the-cuff or FAQ-flavored.
There is another check to add a spell to your spellbook that the Op is failing:
Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
The Mystic Theurge that has filled a wizard spell slot with a clerical spell that has an equivalent wizard spells hasn't understood the spell, so he can't writhe it in his spellbook.
It is the same limit that stop a 7th level Magus with Knowledge Pool from writing all the existing magus spells in his spellbook.He can memorize them but he hasn't understood them.
|
|
Addendum to my post above:
Combined Spells (Su): ...The components of these spells do not change, but they otherwise follow the rules for the spellcasting class used to cast the spell.So it's safe to assume that if you prepare any Cleric spell requiring a divine focus in a wizard spell slot, you still use your holy symbol to cast that spell. Thus the spell itself is still a divine spell, even if "readied" in an arcane spell slot.
The spell follows the rules of the class that cast it (DC for saving throw and duration and such), but the type of the spell (arcane or divine) does not change.
Does "follows the rules of the class that cast it" include suffering Arcane Spell Failure for a cleric list spell prepared in a wizard slot? Since ASF is part of the rules for casting as a wizard, and isn't itself a component, I would think yes. This would mean that it would be possible to suffer arcane spell failure chance for a spell using a divine focus.