Simple question: How much Labor do you believe should need to be expended in order to tunnel a single 5x5x8 square of solid stone?
I'm curious what other people think about this as well.
You are basically taking 10 attacking a 5 foot square of stone with a miner's pick. With a miner's profession, an npc should be able to pull it off. I'm thinking one round to bust it up, then another round for a zero level to shovel it out.
OP, what level are you? Have you considered picking up a Lyre of Building? Or summoning a creature with a Burrow speed? (burrowing leaves a tunnel)
You are basically taking 10 attacking a 5 foot square of stone with a miner's pick. With a miner's profession, an npc should be able to pull it off. I'm thinking one round to bust it up, then another round for a zero level to shovel it out.
One round? As in 6 seconds?
Go dig out that much dirt. Tell us how long it takes you. Then just try to imagine doing it through solid rock.
You couldn't clear that much stone in one round with an adamantine pick.
You're probably right. A heavy pick does 1D6, so that's at 3 per attack,(4 if you're generous) someone would have to go through the hardness and it's hit points. Is that in the core book somewhere?
I'm Level 3 step 3 (using SKR's step system). Not very far away from just using repeated castings of stone shape to solve this problem.
Doomed Hero's burrowing suggestion sounds good. We have relaxed summoning rules in this campaign so it should be easy (summoning tables are based on CR).
The lyre is out of our price range right now.
My DM is pricing a single square of tunneling at 25 labor (so building a freestanding mint above ground = the same amount of effort as tunneling 2 squares).
It might take one guy a week, depending on the hardness of stone. Solid granite, yeah, a lot longer, but limestone? Especially if you don't want to re-use the stones you're pulling out (so you're basically coming out with gravel). With an adamantine pick, maybe a day.
Now labor is worth 20g to buy 1 unit; that's roughly equivalent to the money a pair of skilled laborers earn in 1 week. Now a tunnel this narrow would be hard to get more than one guy in there, so let's assume two shifts and you get 2 tunnel lengths for 1 labor point - for softer stone. Multiply by 2-3 for harder stones.
I haven't reviewed the pathfinder material for rules on the matter, which I am 99% sure exist, but a quick skim of the 2nd edition Dungeoneer's Survival Guide indicates that a human can clear the following:
Human:
..... Very Soft Rock (75*)
..... Soft Rock (50*)
..... Hard Rock (25*)
* Rates are in cubic feet/miner/eight hours. These rates assume that the characters are using pickaxes.
Additionally, most burrowing creatures DO NOT leave a tunnel according to the universal monster rules.
Having just reviewed the rules on the matter in Pathfinder...
The whole system is annoying, which is why I think I will continue to use the mining rates from the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide.
Table: Substance Hardness and Hit Points indicates stone has a Hardness of 8 and 15 HPs per inch of thickness.
5 x 5 x 8 = 200 cubic feet
200 cubic feet = 345,600 cubic inches
345,600 cubic inches = 70.17642571710877 in. x 15 hps = 1052.646 total hit points.
A pickaxe deals 1d8 for a medium creature. The average damage of a pickaxe is equal to 4.5 damage (use of averages is advised, as you'd have to be insane to make that many rolls). Assuming no strength modifiers, it would take 233.9213333333333 rounds (assuming the pickaxe ignores the hardness of stone [pray it does or your GM feels it does, I honestly don't recall], as it is designed to break it up).
1 round = 6 seconds
233.921rounds x 6seconds = 1403.526 total seconds.
1403.526s / 60 seconds (a minute) = 23.3921 minutes to escavate assuming no Strength modifier and Hardness is ignored by mining tools.
My math may be wrong. I'm sure if it is, someone will point it out in the least courteous way possible, but there you go.=)
I was going to get to the breaks, why it is more cost effective to use criminals, and flog them when they get sleepy.
Maybe the 8 days assumes expert miners at least 1st level. Common laborers at zero level(1D6 hit points and 2D6 at all attributes) might take a full month. Apprenticed to an expert, one common laborer might become an expert, if they have the aptitude.
Your 5 foot hole is perfect for dwarven, gnome, or halfling miners. Only Dwarves would have Miner as a free profession.
@pricing: I think it is unfair to present the price without the reasoning
I did send you a link to this thread immediately after making it. You can post your reasoning. I don't see the problem.
I personally don't like the idea of using non Ultimate Campaign rules in order to figure out pricing for things in Ultimate Campaign. Consider the following (from an email exchange with Isil-zha):
I think things not covered should be priced by comparing them to other things in Ultimate Campaign. Right now I am leaning towards 1-3 labor a square, even if that is absurdly high if we think about it in non Ultimate Campaign rules (i.e. as 60 gp worth of hirelings).
@Da'ath: while I see nothing wrong with your math the hardness won't be ignored unless the pick is made out of a special material that does so. That is the reason why your calculated example is so far off from the numbers you have given above that indicate eight days for a single miner to accomplish that task (actual damage is [4.5+Str]x4-8 every 20 rounds but I doubt that you can continuously swing that pick every six seconds for 8 hours at a time, you probably go slower and have to take breaks, which accounts for the rest of the difference)
I believe he is invoking this principle:
Vulnerability to Certain Attacks: Certain attacks are especially successful against some objects. In such cases, attacks deal double their normal damage and may ignore the object's hardness.
Assuredly, a pick is specifically designed to break up stone and thus stone is at least more effective than - for instance - a monk flurrying with their fists at the stone.
I apologize for my ignorance. I think of labor as what is accomplished in a round, an hour, or a day. I was wondering why tunneling through rock was considered ultimate. I don't own that product, and unless you provide a formula of X=one man's hard days work, I will be forced to hide this topic.
I apologize for my ignorance. I think of labor as what is accomplished in a round, an hour, or a day. I was wondering why tunneling through rock was considered ultimate. I don't own that product, and unless you provide a formula of X=one man's hard days work, I will be forced to hide this topic.
Ultimate Campaign is up on the PRD.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/downtime.html
Rooms are created through the expenditure of capital. One of those types of capital is labor. Labor costs 20 gp to purchase.
The question is how much labor should it take to tunnel a square of stone (a secondary question is how much Magic (another type of capital) it would cost).
In Pyramidville on Facebook, labor means how many people it takes to build a building. For homes, this is a one time cost that increases your pool of labor. Your 5 by 5 tunnel would force you to use only 3 labor as there will only be one laborer at a time, working in shifts. It might take you a month to go 5 feet. If you expand the tunnel to ten feet wide, you can use the 25 labor force and maybe go 5 feet in 8 days.
You need one level 2+ druid and 2 hours tops to clear it, plus however long it takes someone to move that much pulverized stone out of the way.
Druid casts Call Animal to get a Dire Badger. Druid pushes the Badger to burrow, which it can do through the stone in roughly 3 seconds. Then some guy drags the stone away--might take an hour or two, depending on tools and terrain.
If we're talking downtime system, digging a 15' deep pit takes 1 goods, 1 labor, and 2 days. It does not specify what material said pit is dug into, so I think that's a pretty good thing to base it on.
I believe he is invoking this principle:Vulnerability to Certain Attacks: Certain attacks are especially successful against some objects. In such cases, attacks deal double their normal damage and may ignore the object's hardness.Assuredly, a pick is specifically designed to break up stone and thus stone is at least more effective than - for instance - a monk flurrying with their fists at the stone.
You know, I thought I had read that rule somewhere, but since I couldn't find it (and I've played through every edition from 1e-3.5-> Pathfinder and often mix up rules from other editions), I didn't want to make a statement I couldn't back up without proper citation. Thanks for finding it - go figure, it was on the same page all the other material I quoted came from, lol.
Additionally, I hadn't realized you doubled the damage AND could ignored hardness. Doubling damage would half the time I listed above.
Edit: I removed all of the post after this point. I just realized you're asking about the system in Ultimate Campaign. I apologize for giving you a ton of useless information. I'm blaming fireworks, beer, and lack of sleep for my poor reading comprehension.
The Pit, as suggested by mplindustries is your best comparison.
In the game Atlantis Fantasy, energy can shorten time. You could use say 5 points of magic to shorten the digging time by a day. With enough magic you could drill through an enemy's castle wall in short order.
In this thread I learned that burrowing creatures dont leave tunnels.
Strange, since I can't think of a single burrowing creature in real life that doesn't leave tunnels.
Hard to believe that something like a Thoqqua, which is described as moving by melting it's way through rock, would somehow seal the stone behind them.
The landshark probably doesn't leave a tunnel when it's hunting, because it travels just under the surface so it can sense it's prey. It's lair is deeper, an possibly in part of a dungeon. Deep clay and rocks are easier to pack into tunnels. Elemental creatures probably can choose to create a tunnel or pass through without effect. The Thoqqua probably only leaves a tunnel when the lava has somewhere to drain into.