Maybe you could show us what you already have? Do you play Pathfinder Society or do you play an Adventure Path?
In case you don't play PFS, the rest of your group consists of how many players? Which classes did they take?
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Shooowwww meee the chracterrrrr.
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@Turgan: This is a Society character.
STR: 13
DEX: 17
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 12
CHA: 10
Feats:
-Two Weapon Fighting
Traits:
-Reactionary
-Meridian Strike
Gear:
- Armor: Lamellar (Leather)
- Weapons: Shortsword x2 and a sling...for now.
Since I was practically carried, I have 2590gp after those two games.
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#1: Don't be a Rogue.
Not helpful.
#1: Don't be a Rogue.
While I can't agree to that mindset, I will admit, dipping can at least give you nice things for a low price that can help with survival.
Fighter, barbarian, or ranger have the obvious advantages of not interferring with your BAb and providing proficiencies in martial weapons and at least medium armor. That typically helps with survival. Barbarian also has rage and d12 hit dice. That can be nice.
...bard, inquistor, or cleric would allow you to use wands of Cure light wounds, as well as use your own buffs and heals. While your stats tend towards a divine caster, that has a lot of baggage. Even without anything in charisma, you can at least use cantrips and wands. That can help expand your utility. Either option does carry the problem of a loss in BAB though, but an inquisitor could solve that once per day I suppose. A good domain can be equally valuable (I've always liked travel. A nice bonus to speed and ignoring difficult terrain)
1) Increase your attack bonuses. This can included base attack, ability scores, magic weapons, feats, spells, and flanking. If you don't hit, you don't deal damage.
2) Get your static damage bonus up. This is the damage that is always added to the weapon damage die. These can come from your strength bonus, magic weapons, and feats, among others
3) If you have bonus damage that is added situationally - such as sneak attack, smite evil, and favored enemy - then do everything in your power to make those situations come up as often as possible.
4) Critical hits are what can turn a weapon user into a absolute monster. Landing a X3 or X4 crit is extremely satisfying, but X2 crits happen more often, since they have larger crit ranges.
5) Free attacks are always good. You can get these from spells, magic items, and attacks of opportunity. Reach weapons have their own shortcomings, but you will get to make more attacks.
6) Diversify your weapon inventory. Even if your character doesn't care about ranged attacks, you'd better carry a bow or javelins or something. You don't want to be a sitting duck. Be able to deal different damage types. Slashing weapons are (in my opinion) the best of the bunch, but sometimes you need bludgeoning or piercing against a specific monster. Otherwise, the GM will be deducting 5 or 10 points from your damage rolls. For the same reason, at some point in the game you will need weapons made of adamantium, cold iron, silver, etc.
On the one hand melee is a tactics game: position yourself to make the most attacks, get attacked the fewest times, and still be able to work with your allies. On the other hand it is a numbers game: simple number crunching, crit fishing, and bonus farming. It may or may not be satisfying for you, but its what separates the warlords from the town guards.
Invest in stuff that makes you survivable. I have found that once a rogue does get into the nice flanking posn, the bad guy just "turns" and drops him.
Toughness feat, rogue talents that allow you to live longer (Resiliency , etc).
Put your favored class bonus into HP. etc.
Weapon Finesse for another +2 to hit. Put points in Acrobatics so you can get into flanking position to use your Sneak Attack for bonus damage. I should also like to tell you to get an elven curved blade for better damage, but you already took the two-weapon feat.
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Invest in stuff that makes you survivable. I have found that once a rogue does get into the nice flanking posn, the bad guy just "turns" and drops him.
Toughness feat, rogue talents that allow you to live longer (Resiliency , etc).
Put your favored class bonus into HP. etc.
That actually sounds good. I've also seen that happen to a glass cannon before. The mob was already focusing on the closest pc. The pc misses. Another pc flanks and hits. The mob turns around and wrecks him.
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Weapon Finesse for another +2 to hit. Put points in Acrobatics so you can get into flanking position to use your Sneak Attack for bonus damage. I should also like to tell you to get an elven curved blade for better damage, but you already took the two-weapon feat.
I don't see +2 attk anywhere on that descriptor.
Weapon Finesse for another +2 to hit. Put points in Acrobatics so you can get into flanking position to use your Sneak Attack for bonus damage. I should also like to tell you to get an elven curved blade for better damage, but you already took the two-weapon feat.I don't see +2 attk anywhere on that descriptor.
Your Dex offers +3 vs. the current +1 with your Str.
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Are you unable to multiclass or take an archetype of Rogue?
Does not PFS allow for a rebuild prior to 2nd?
My first take on making this PC did have Swordmaster but I just wasn't fond of the abilities at all. And yes, after my third game, my decisions have to be final before printing out my lvl 2 sheet. I think. o.o;
@Turgan: This is a Society character.
STR: 13
DEX: 17
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 12
CHA: 10Feats:
-Two Weapon FightingTraits:
-Reactionary
-Meridian StrikeGear:
- Armor: Lamellar (Leather)
- Weapons: Shortsword x2 and a sling...for now.Since I was practically carried, I have 2590gp after those two games.
Welp, to be honest, yeah being a rogue was your problem, sorry. :/
So what can you do now? I would say take advantage of your dex and plink at people with your sling. Second level you absolutely should grab weapon finnesse as swinging at +0 with your short swords is plain silly.
Go ahead and see about grabbing a +1 version of your choice of armor and a cloak of resistance. That's easy defense you can afford. Look into packing consumable items you can throw like Ghast Retch or tanglefoot bags that will let you be credit to team while trying to maneuver into position for full attacks.
Going forward you need to find every to hit bonus you can. Weapon focus is in your future. Power attack is not. Offensive Defense increases survivability. Ki Pool + Ninja Trick (Shadow Clone) is an excellent defensive set up. IF you are getting those you might as well get Ninja Trick (Vanishing Trick) which will let you get into position unhamred or make a quick getaway. IF you are feeling particularly cheeky you can get Firearms training and Grit so you can push your TWF into a dual gun slinging rogue which can be surprisingly effective if you can get some form of steady invisibility to attack from.
BEyond that, there's not much you can do without dipping into other classes.
Would taking Combat Trick bypass the prerequisites for Weapon Focus? Assuming I'm only staying as one class and not multi.
Nope. But, you also qualify for weapon focus at level two anyway so it makes no difference.
my recommendation for a rogue, is the following
Onispawn tiefling (blood of fiends)
Str 17 (15+2)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14 (12+2)
Cha 5 (7-2)
Take a longspear, composite shortbow, and cestus, take power attack at 3rd level, takes many feats fewer than dual wielding, deals more damage, loses less from sneak attacks and movement, and benefits nicely from a 4 level weapon master dip for +5 to hit and +5 to damage over a typical rogue with your signature polearm.
put your 4th level point in strength, pump strength, not dex
dex can be bumped by belts of physical perfection, it just takes a little longer, but with a mithril chain shirt or mithril Kikko, you shouldn't be too worried about getting progessively lighter armor to accomodate higher dex.
a trait tax can minmax mithril breastplate for you.
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Don't overlook combat reflexes, I find it critical in a melee build.
Also most of the high dex characters I have seen wear celestial armor, though I think you can also be sucessful by instead pumping str.
It is by no means cheap (22k and change iirc), but I am pretty sure it has the highest dex bonus.
If you think it is in your future, don't invest too heavily in other armors as you level!
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What about a 1-level dip in Wizard (Diviner-subschool Foresight) ?
- You will always act in the surprise round, with a +1 to your Initiative
- 3 times per day (with your current stats) you can use the best of 2 rolls on any roll you have to make (kind of)
- you can use all these nice 2PA wands of 1st-level wizard spells (Vanish, Reduce Person, Enlarge Person, Protection from Evil, Expeditious Retreat, Mage Armor, Shield, Infernal Healing ...) even with zero UMD
- you get cantrips, and even some 1st-level spells should you ever increase your INT.
- You boost your will save
- you get a familiar that grants you Alertness and the equivalent of another feat such as Improved Initiative (Scorpion). If you choose a talking familiar (like Raven or Thrush), that is taking the best of 2 rolls on many Knowledge Skills with most GMs, as well as a useful scout (they are both Tiny fliers)
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What about a 1-level dip in Wizard (Diviner-subschool Foresight) ?
- You will always act in the surprise round, with a +1 to your Initiative
- 3 times per day (with your current stats) you can use the best of 2 rolls on any roll you have to make (kind of)
- you can use all these nice 2PA wands of 1st-level wizard spells (Vanish, Reduce Person, Enlarge Person, Protection from Evil, Expeditious Retreat, Mage Armor, Shield, Infernal Healing ...) even with zero UMD
- you get cantrips, and even some 1st-level spells should you ever increase your INT.
- You boost your will save
- you get a familiar that grants you Alertness and the equivalent of another feat such as Improved Initiative (Scorpion). If you choose a talking familiar (like Raven or Thrush), that is taking the best of 2 rolls on many Knowledge Skills with most GMs, as well as a useful scout (they are both Tiny fliers)
This would be a really good suggestion, if he had a high enough INT to cast 1st level wizard spells. A good alternative is Inquisitor. You can use wands of CLW instead of Mage Armor, a domain/inquisition, and get access to two of a Rogue's favorite orisons: Acid Splash and Brand.
Acid Splash has 1: no save or SR failure, 2: Qualifies for Sneak Attack Damage if used from hiding/surprise, and 3: targets touch ac. The only things immune to acid damage are also likely immune to sneak attacks.
Brand, being a melee touch spell, can be used in melee to pull off a sneak attack with flanking.
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The good news is, as a PFS character of level 1, you are allowed to completely rewrite your character.
As a tengu rogue though, you can make everything work well. Here is how I would set up personally (I'm assuming by your setup you are opposed to stat dumping):
Str: 10 (0)
Int: 14 (5)
Wis: 12 (0)
Dex: 18 (10)
Con: 12 (5)
Chr: 10 (0)
Take the alternative race feature that gives you claws instead of sword-trained. You'll now be doing claw-claw-bite, yielding 3 attacks eligible for sneak attack damage at 1st level (and they are all "primaries"). No need for twf or anything else; it keeps your "to hit" compettive while making sure you can apply sneak attack up to 3 times.
So level 1 you weapon finessee; at 3 go ahead and take the "gang up" feat (making it much easier to flank baddies). From there, since you have unarmed fighting for free as a qualifying feat, I would go ahead and take dodge and the "Crane" fighting style to make yourself more survivable @ high levels. Finally, I'd pick up "Pirannah Strike" to add a little more to your damage output.
1 - Dodge 2 - Finessee Rogue 3 - Crane Style 1 5 - Pirannah Strike 7 - Crane Wing 9 - Whatever 11 - Crane Riposte
By level 4 you should have enough PP to buy an Amulet of Mightyfist: Agility, which will add Dex to damage of all 3 attacks (instead of str). Then buy the belt to get your dex up.
That should keep your damage competitive with anyone else fighting; and you don't have to waste feats on things like two-weapon fighting. You'll also do respectable damage even if you're not flanking; since you'll get 3 attacks at full-BAB that each add your dex to damage.
Take the alternative race feature that gives you claws instead of sword-trained. You'll now be doing claw-claw-bite, yielding 3 attacks eligible for sneak attack damage at 1st level (and they are all "primaries"). No need for twf or anything else; it keeps your "to hit" compettive while making sure you can apply sneak attack up to 3 times
Well, I will agree that this seems tempting. Particularly since you are already using short swords, which are gained just from being a rogue. So you would lose out on nothing at all if you traded out sword trained for claws.
The three attacks are absolutely leathal at early levels, since they all strike at full BAB. Also, since you have 3 natural attacks, you may well qualify for multiattack (is that PFS legal as a general feat?) This allows secondary attacks to hit like off hand TWF attacks. Since all natural weapons become secondary when you throw in a weapon, this can be good. The weapon (short sword? Rapier?) is unaffected by the natural attacks. This is a good option once you get iteratives at level 7, or even before just to get special materials or an easily enchanted weapon. Although... three natural attacks would really last your power output for most of PFS's level ranges.
Also, blackbloodtroll: I always thought of Tengu as being modeled after a completely other offensive stereotype. have fun guessing which!
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@Turgan: This is a Society character.
STR: 13
DEX: 17
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 12
CHA: 10Feats:
-Two Weapon FightingTraits:
-Reactionary
-Meridian StrikeGear:
- Armor: Lamellar (Leather)
- Weapons: Shortsword x2 and a sling...for now.Since I was practically carried, I have 2590gp after those two games.
IMO this is an excellent first attempt at a PFS rogue; it shows to me that you've thought about the total package carefully....although I would have spent my point-buy more efficiently (i.e., paying 10 build points for a 16(-2=14) CON in a tengu is half of your total).
Try this: 15,14,12,12,12,12 array yields...
STR:12
DEX+17
CON-12
INT:12
WIS:14
CHA:12
Lv Ba Build
01 00 rogu1 SA+1d6, Two Weapon Fighting (set)
...rework your stats before "committing" yourself at 2nd level
02 01 rogu2 [Finesse Rogue][Evasion]
03 02 cleric (deity/domains???) Improved Initiative
-- not foolin' here: tengus get a wisdom bonus; and a level of cleric lets you use all divine devices without worrying about UMD checks failing, as well as +2 to both of a rogue's major weaknesses. Additionally, the BAB-1 is more than offset by popping off a Bless in the first round of combat, when, more often than not in PFS, you're in poor position to receive a full-attack immediately. (More often you'll find yourself getting a single standard action or a move in a surprise round, and what better time to cast a very useful spell? -- And Bless has legs in PFS; I have a 7th-level character who has never been the recipient of Bless, ever.)
Your will save at 3rd is +4 unbuffed....not bad for a rogue.
04 03 rogu3 SA+2d6, DEX>18 (20 with dex belt)
...the temptation toward fighter dips is strong, but IMO base-attack bonus is overrated in a rogue concept, since your tactic should be stealth and surprise (this lowering opponent AC by an amount that usually exceeds the BAB differential between you and a fighter, while also rendering the opponent eligible for sneak-attacks).
05 04 rogu4 [Uncanny Dodge], Quick Draw
...you are getting nine skill points per level, and around now is when they begin to pay off as the distance between you and the "just a point in it" builds is becoming noticeable. Your Perception score is often the highest at most tables you sit down to.
06 04 rogu5 SA+3d6 ...etc
...equipment: quickdraw light shield, +1 shortbow, pair of wakizashis (they are swords; and you a tengu, and therefore proficient in the use of the best light weapon in the game! --rogues with rapiers and scimitars will especially envy you in grapple or swallowed situations), Efficient quiver full of arrows, swords, divine scrolls and wands.
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Making an already difficult character completely MAD is not the way to go; losing 3.5 damage every 2 levels SUCKS; and -1 to hit is NOT offset by bless very well. If you splash, you splash for BAB classes, and early (Urban Barbarian 1 is probably best), but even that lowers you lose out on tricks and sneak attack damage, so not even that is good.
So if you want to be a rogue, commit to it; there are reasons to multi-class, but they are very much the exception and NOT the rule. Sadly you never will qualify for multi-attack on above :(. At 8th level it's a decision whether you want to Rapier, Rapier @ -5, Claw -5, Bite -5; or just keep at it with Claw/Claw/Bite. If you are willing to invest in a +1 Agile Keen Rapier (18,000 GP; which around 9-10 is doable), I'd say go with the former; your crits and extra attack will probably make up for half-dex damage on your claw and bite. Otherwise you can just add a +1 to your Amulet of Mighty Fist and keep on with 3 attacks for your career; you could use the extra to hit and damage and by then hitting with the 3 attacks is more important than the little bit of damage of the rapier (by then you should have a 24 dex and be hitting at +16-17 for d3+8 per attack, +4d6 more per attack if you can sneak attack).
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Making an already difficult character completely MAD is not the way to go; losing 3.5 damage every 2 levels SUCKS; and -1 to hit is NOT offset by bless very well.It's offset by Bless phenomenally well, since that's a +1 to everyone in the party -- and it's particularly good when cast by a character with high INIT as opposed to low. Alternatively, you trigger a wand of Heroism or nicer jeejaw later on. Deploying a Cure spell with zero failure chance on a downed colleague is a great team-player mechanic (and a TPK avoider if the recipient is the cleric or major meatwall).
If you splash, you splash for BAB classes, and early (Urban Barbarian 1 is probably best), but even that lowers you lose out on tricks and sneak attack damage, so not even that is good.Urban dip is good, though managing limited rage rounds per day is tedium.
So if you want to be a rogue, commit to it; there are reasons to multi-class, but they are very much the exception and NOT the rule. Sadly you never will qualify for multi-attack on above :(. At 8th level it's a decision whether you want to Rapier, Rapier @ -5, Claw -5, Bite -5; or just keep at it with Claw/Claw/Bite. If you are willing to invest in a +1 Agile Keen Rapier (18,000 GP; which around 9-10 is doable), I'd say go with the former; your crits and extra attack will probably make up for half-dex damage on your claw and bite. Otherwise you can just add a +1 to your Amulet of Mighty Fist and keep on with 3 attacks for your career;
AMF forfeits that coveted necklace slot (which most rogues use for picking up Natural Armor).
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AMF forfeits that coveted necklace slot (which most rogues use for picking up Natural Armor).
You could make up for this by making your dip Urban Druid with the community domain to gain bless. You can then use Wands of Barkskin with no UMD as well as CLW, and have your Natural Armor provided by spell.
First, understand everything you can do to get off your Sneak Attack damage. Understand how to get to a flanking position utilizing acrobatics to avoid AoO's. Read about delaying and readying actions. Look for conditions and/or situations that make your enemies flat-footed or deny them their dexterity bonus. Put yourself in the best position to get off your full-round attack with Sneak Attack and be patient in doing so.
Second, understand the Knowledge skills for gaining creature abilities/immunities/weaknesses. There are creatures that cannot be flanked, cannot be crit'd and/or do not take Precision damage. Read up on ways to counter these types, things like Ghost Touch, Golemnbane Scarabs, etc.
Third, know when you won't be able to inflict your optimal damage and come up with alternative actions to be useful in those cases. (A bow with the Designating enchant, Aid Another, UMD Wands, etc.)
A lot of this is a bit further down the line than where you are right now, OP, but you'll be better off the sooner you begin to delve into these concepts.
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AMF forfeits that coveted necklace slot (which most rogues use for picking up Natural Armor).You could make up for this by making your dip Urban Druid with the community domain to gain bless. You can then use Wands of Barkskin with no UMD as well as CLW, and have your Natural Armor provided by spell.
The wand is stuck at +1, while the Amulet can be upgraded.
(That is a nice multiclass exploit, however. ...but the greater flexibility of two cleric domains usually wins me over. Travel, in particular, eliminates a lot of situational battlemat annoyances.)
Rogues have UMD as a class skill. He doesn't need to dip.
Until high level, you don't want to have to rely on UMD in combat, because your failure chance is still considerable -- and there's a cumulative 5% chance which never goes away of rolling a 1 and (assuming the check fails on a 1) not being able to trigger an item for another 24 hours (and that could very well include the next day's adventuring after 8hr rest). UMD is an incredibly powerful skill, but it's not automatic, and it does require actions and consumables.
@blackbloodtroll: Being one wasn't my first choice but that's your opinion.After seeing the effectiveness of PC rogues during a PFS weekend, I've come to the conclusion that the folks who keep trumpeting out this canard, simply can't play them effectively.
Bingo. (And most of those players, I'll bet, are playing human MAD "strong" rogues with garbage AC and horrible saves. Tier 7-8, and they're stomped into greasy paste while the high AC supersneak halfling sails through unscathed. Playing a human rogue is like playing a dwarf bard: you can be OK at it with considerable effort, but you'll never be great.)
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In PFS especially, Amulets rarely go above +1 anyway. In 12 levels there are just a LOT more efficient armor options. There are:
Ioun Stone (5000 gp to upgrade)
Your mithril chain shirt (up to +3 is less than upgrading amulet to +2)
Jigsai of good fortune (bargain, also a negated crit for 5000)
Ring of Force Shield (+2 for 8000, since you don't have a shield)
Ring of Protection (same upgrade cost)
Only then would you start to look @ 6K upgrade options for your amulet of barkskin, and with Dex being primary focus of this guy, you'd probably go Dex +4 first. And you're saving the cost of a weapon slot.
The key is to use your race's strength. Tengu's best strength (IMHO) is to have 3 natural attacks that can all be primary; this feeds right into the rogue. You can also upgrade all of those attacks with just 1 slot (your amulet slot), and you save all of the two-weapon fighting nonsense feats and penalties. This keeps your "To Hit" competitive with the fighter's.
If I wanted a second weapon, I would pick up a level of monk and make my fist my other attack. With armor of bashing being a cheap upgrade for +2/+2 on my fist, a free feat, free "two weapon fighting" in the guise of flurry of blows, and +2 to all saving throws... THAT is a splash that could potentially (probably) be worth taking at some point.
Let's see that guy at, say, 6th level (Rogue 5 / Monk 1)
Str - 10 Int - 12 Wis - 12 Dex - 19(21) (upgraded) Con - 12 Chr: 10
Amulet of Might Fist - Agility
+2 Belt of Dex
+1 Bashing Mithril Breastplate
Full Attack: Unarmed/Unarmed/Claw/Claw/Bite
+9 / +9 / +4 / +4 / +4
d6 + 7 * 2 / d3 +2 * 3
(With sneak attack each hit would yield 3d6 extra damage)
There ya go; now we're hitting like champs :). And have solid AC too.
I thought I'd throw this out there: if the traits from Ultimate Campaign are PFS legal, you may want to consider playing an Archeologist Bard with Fate's Favored instead of a Rogue. You can still call your character a Rogue and play it like one, but you'll have a better time in combat and you have access to wands of CLW.