Can you take Sorcerer class to gain Bloodline Arcana with an 8 charisma?


Rules Questions


I have a magus player looking to boost the damage on his Spellstrike shocking grasp by taking a level of sorcerer to gain Bloodline Arcana that boost damage per die like Draconic/Elemental (Primal).

He has an 8 charisma. He doesn't care about being able to cast sorcerer spells.

Before I let this pass, is there any rule saying you must meet the prereq stat for a class to gain a level in it? I don't meant RAI. Is there any actual rule stopping him from doing this? We like to play as close to the rules as possible to make it everything consistent.

Grand Lodge

No. It is not restricted.

Just inability to cast spells.

It is still a bad idea though.


Totally legit. Point him at the Tattooed Sorcerer for a consolation prize.


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If you're going to do a one-level dip for bloodline arcana you want cross-blooded sorcerer that lets you take two arcana at the cost of reduced spellcasting that never comes into play.

Grand Lodge

Crossblooded works because you can choose the Sage Bloodline, and use intelligence as the caster stat.

Liberty's Edge

There is no restriction. In addition to the bloodline power, he'll also gain use of all wiz/Sorc spells.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Crossblooded works because you can choose the Sage Bloodline, and use intelligence as the caster stat.

Or, as the player wants to do, ignore the level 0 and 1 spells you get (you'd have to worry about Armor Failure anyway), and just eat a BAB loss in order to deal +2 damage per die on Shocking Grasp.

10d6+20 is nasty. I don't think I would personally do this multi-class, but I can definitely understand the appeal.

Grand Lodge

Extra stuff is extra stuff.

Why self nerf, when you can get what you want and more?


The player doesn't care about the spells or other powers. He is doing a one level dip into Sorcerer to get the Bloodline Arcana for the extra damage since it is not reliant on Sorcerer levels.

He doesn't consider the lvl 20 Magus ability to be very attractive. He thinks the bonus on Spell damage is much better than the lvl 20 Magus ability. We usually do reach lvl 20, so that is something he takes into account.

I can understand. The lvl 20 magus ability is pretty weak. Then again, a lot of the lvl 20 abilities are pretty weak.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Extra stuff is extra stuff.

Why self nerf, when you can get what you want and more?

Mainly because it's been ruled that Crossblooded and Wildblooded don't stack.

He'd be better off with Crossblooded Orc/Draconic.

Shadow Lodge

Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Mainly because it's been ruled that Crossblooded and Wildblooded don't stack.

Curiosity, where has this been ruled? No citation given, and the FAQ doesn't have anything like that.


jlighter wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Mainly because it's been ruled that Crossblooded and Wildblooded don't stack.
Curiosity, where has this been ruled? No citation given, and the FAQ doesn't have anything like that.

Yeah, I'd like to hear that too. I haven't seen this.


I'll cite the rules source for Wildblooded and Crossblooded not stacking:

"A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature."

Wildblooded Bloodlines always replace the Bloodline Arcana. Crossblooded alters the Bloodline Arcana by giving you two.

Further, Wildblooded Bloodlines replace at least one Bloodline Power each, while Crossblooded alters every Bloodline power by giving you a choice between two.

It's all very clear--no errata or ruling necessary.

The reason people get confused is because they think of Wildbloodlines as just additional bloodline choices, but they are not--by RAW, they are Archetypes.

Shadow Lodge

Ah. Good to know that that's how that's working. I'll make sure to let my players know that going forward.


Actually technically I think "Wildblooded" is the archetype - and each of the wildblooded types are just the choice you make once you take that archetype. Personally I think they should have done wildblooded bloodlines like subdomains for Domains which would have let you use them with other archetypes like Crossblooded - but that isn't how they wrote it.

(Ultimate Magic is, I think, the weakest book from Paizo in terms of overall editing/game design but that's a matter for a different thread)


mplindustries wrote:


Further, Wildblooded Bloodlines replace at least one Bloodline Power each, while Crossblooded alters every Bloodline power by giving you a choice between two.

I think you are functionally correct based on your other point, but this particular one doesn't work. Having a choice between two class features while altering/replacing neither is not altering/replacing the class feature.

Lots (years I believe) of debate over that with the qinggong monk were recently settled.


Ximen Bao wrote:
mplindustries wrote:


Further, Wildblooded Bloodlines replace at least one Bloodline Power each, while Crossblooded alters every Bloodline power by giving you a choice between two.

I think you are functionally correct based on your other point, but this particular one doesn't work. Having a choice between two class features while altering/replacing neither is not altering/replacing the class feature.

Lots (years I believe) of debate over that with the qinggong monk were recently settled.

When you are a Qinggong Monk, you choose whether or not to replace each feature. In other words, there is a default choice, and that is not necessarily altered.

Crossblooded, however, gives you a choice between two--there's no default, you have to make a choice as a result of Crossblooded.


The big issue with Wildblooded is that, design-wise, they look exactly like subdomains, which can be freely archetyped out.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
The big issue with Wildblooded is that, design-wise, they look exactly like subdomains, which can be freely archetyped out.

And as far as I'm concerned, they should have just been sub-bloodlines or something like that. In fact, if you played in my game, I'd treat them as just that and you'd be allowed to Crossblood Wildbloodlines. Unfortunately, that's just not how the rules are written.


mplindustries wrote:

I'll cite the rules source for Wildblooded and Crossblooded not stacking:

"A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature."

Wildblooded Bloodlines always replace the Bloodline Arcana. Crossblooded alters the Bloodline Arcana by giving you two.

Further, Wildblooded Bloodlines replace at least one Bloodline Power each, while Crossblooded alters every Bloodline power by giving you a choice between two.

It's all very clear--no errata or ruling necessary.

The reason people get confused is because they think of Wildbloodlines as just additional bloodline choices, but they are not--by RAW, they are Archetypes.

This is incorrect. There is not a single item exchanged or replaced that falls into the rule you are citing.

If you do the exchanges, you will see why.

Quote:
At 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th, and 20th levels, a crossblooded sorcerer gains one of the two new bloodline powers available to her at that level. She may instead select a lower-level bloodline power she did not choose in place of one of these higher-level powers.

Nowhere does it specify whether the powers exchanged need to be part of the original bloodline or a wild bloodline. That is the key difference. It is exactly the same for the Arcana and other such features.

A lack of specificity means you can mix and match as you wish.


mplindustries wrote:
Ximen Bao wrote:
mplindustries wrote:


Further, Wildblooded Bloodlines replace at least one Bloodline Power each, while Crossblooded alters every Bloodline power by giving you a choice between two.

I think you are functionally correct based on your other point, but this particular one doesn't work. Having a choice between two class features while altering/replacing neither is not altering/replacing the class feature.

Lots (years I believe) of debate over that with the qinggong monk were recently settled.

When you are a Qinggong Monk, you choose whether or not to replace each feature. In other words, there is a default choice, and that is not necessarily altered.

Crossblooded, however, gives you a choice between two--there's no default, you have to make a choice as a result of Crossblooded.

I think this 'default choice' concept you've come up with is fairly unsatisfying.

1.It's not based on anything as far as I can tell.

2. Either the feature is altered or it isn't. Choosing a feature isn't altering it, regardless of whether there is a default or not. Nothing in the ruling that established this concept placed any weight on a default choice. The only mention was that if you stacked an additional archetype that replaced a feature, it eliminated the option of choice.


Raith Shadar wrote:
mplindustries wrote:

I'll cite the rules source for Wildblooded and Crossblooded not stacking:

"A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature."

Wildblooded Bloodlines always replace the Bloodline Arcana. Crossblooded alters the Bloodline Arcana by giving you two.

Further, Wildblooded Bloodlines replace at least one Bloodline Power each, while Crossblooded alters every Bloodline power by giving you a choice between two.

It's all very clear--no errata or ruling necessary.

The reason people get confused is because they think of Wildbloodlines as just additional bloodline choices, but they are not--by RAW, they are Archetypes.

This is incorrect. There is not a single item exchanged or replaced that falls into the rule you are citing.

It does lack the replace language. The arcana is on the edge though. It *doesn't* say it alters the class feature, but getting 2 instead of 1 seems like it could be an alteration.


Quote:
of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature

It does not alter the same class feature as an alternate class feature.

That is the key language. Cross-blooded alters or changes nothing that is the same as Wild-blooded. Wild-blooded alters a base bloodline changing the choices that can be made by a Cross-blooded sorcerer. But the cross-blooded is non-specific.

All you have to do to prove this is make the changes.

For example, when Cross-blooded says you get both Bloodline Arcanas. Does is alter or replace the same feature as Wild-blooded?

1. Wild-blooded Primal Elemental gets +1 damage per die for energy type. That changes the elemental bloodline.

2. You choose Wild-Blooded and Cross-Blooded. The wild-blooded alters the elemental bloodline and the Cross-blooded allows you to choose from a second bloodline.

3. You now can no longer choose the base Elemental ability of making your energy descriptor spells a different type of energy. You must now choose from the Bloodline Arcana for Primal Elemental.

4. Nothing has been altered or changed since Primal Elemental still provides the benefit of the Primal Elemental Bloodline. Now you also get the Aberration Bloodline as well.

The only time that rule applies is when replacing or altering something similar. Such as a rogue taking two archetypes that both replace Trapsense. Or a Fighter taking Two-hander fighter that alters his weapon training to two-handed weapons and then attempting to take Two-weapon warrior which gives up Weapon Training, which has already been altered.

Cross-blooded and Wild-blooded require no such choices. Cross-blooded does not replace nor alter bloodlines, it allows a wider number of bloodline choices.


Quote:
Further, Wildblooded Bloodlines replace at least one Bloodline Power each, while Crossblooded alters every Bloodline power by giving you a choice between two.

Cross-blooded does not replace those powers. It offers a choice between two bloodline powers.

Wild-blooded absolutely does replace a bloodline power. That replacement has still been made even if you are Cross-blooded. A Cross-blooded Sorcerer with the Wild-Blood archetype only gets to choose the Power and Bloodline Arcana granted by the Wild-blooded Bloodline. So the replacement has been made and the consequences of that replacement have been felt by the Cross-blooded sorcerer whose Bloodline Arcana, Powers, and Skill choices have been altered without altering what the Cross-Blooded Archetype grants.


Raith Shadar wrote:
For example, when Cross-blooded says you get both Bloodline Arcanas. Does is alter or replace the same feature as Wild-blooded?

Yes, it alters the Bloodline Arcana class feature. Wildblood replaces it, and Crossblooded gives you two Bloodline Arcana even though the base Sorcerer feature only grants one.

That is altering the same feature. I don't see how you could argue that it's not.

Raith Shadar wrote:
4. Nothing has been altered or changed since Primal Elemental still provides the benefit of the Primal Elemental Bloodline. Now you also get the Aberration Bloodline as well.

You don't "also get the Aberration Bloodline." That's the trick here. Each step of a bloodline is a class feature, they're not a single feature altogether that you just get a second one of. Bloodline Arcana is a class feature, each Bloodline Power is a class feature, each bloodline spell is a class feature, and each bloodline feat is a class feature.

Giving you both arcana is a definite change to the arcana feature, as is altering the arcana.

Raith Shadar wrote:
The only time that rule applies is when replacing or altering something similar. Such as a rogue taking two archetypes that both replace Trapsense. Or a Fighter taking Two-hander fighter that alters his weapon training to two-handed weapons and then attempting to take Two-weapon warrior which gives up Weapon Training, which has already been altered.

You're wrong, it also applies if both change the same feature, even if they don't remove it.

If two different Ranger archetypes both said, "you must choose a dog as your animal companion," both would alter the same class feature (Nature's Bond) even though they both alter it to the same thing. Or if one expanded your choice of companion to any animal, and another said, "you must choose a bird companion." Even though they are compatible, they still alter the same feature.

That's what's going on here--just because the Wildblood Arcana is not getting removed or further altered, the Bloodline Arcana feature is still being changed twice.


The actual reasoning given in PFS is that both archetypes modify the same class ability, witch is "bloodline" and is gained at first level. While I agree in the strict interpretation of the RAW, my personal opinion is that is bullshit. Unless you are playing an organized event, just stick with what makes sense.


mplindustries wrote:
That is altering the same feature. I don't see how you could argue that it's not.

I could argue that it isn't because you still get the feature. Thus it does not alter the Wildblooded feature. You get the Wildblooded feature and the feature from the other bloodline. Thus Cross-blooded does not alter what Wild-blooded gives.

Quote:
Giving you both arcana is a definite change to the arcana feature, as is altering the arcana.

It is a change, but it does not alter what the Wildblooded archetype gives and the Wildblooded archetype does not alter what the Cross-blooded gives. The two archetypes are compatible.

Quote:
You're wrong, it also applies if both change the same feature, even if they don't remove it.

That isn't the way I read it. It says "replace" which Cross-blooded doesn't do. You still have the option and you still get the Bloodline Arcana.

Or "alter". It does not alter the Wildblooded Bloodline Arcana. If you take the Wildblooded archetype, you automatically get the Bloodline Arcana from Wildblooded and the other Bloodline arcana. Altering would be changing what Cross-blooded gives or changing what Wildblooded gives. Neither archetype does that.

Quote:
If two different Ranger archetypes both said, "you must choose a dog as your animal companion," both would alter the same class feature (Nature's Bond) even though they both alter it to the same thing. Or if one expanded your choice of companion to any animal, and another said, "you must choose a bird companion." Even though they are compatible, they still alter the same feature.

Altering to the same thing is entirely different. I agree with you. That would not be allowed. That is specific.

Cross-blooded does not do this. When you choose Wild-blooded and Cross-blooded you get the effects of both.

Break it down:

Cross-blooded Wild-blooded Primal Elemental/Aberration

1. Bloodline Arcana: Primal Elemental and Aberration.

Wild-blooded makes you take +1 damage die per die. Check. You have it.

Cross-blooded gives you both Bloodline Arcana.

Do you still have Primal Elemental Bloodline Arcana? Check. You have it.

Do you have Aberration? Check you have it.

Can you take Elemental Bloodline Arcana? Nope. Gone from options due to Wild-blooded Archeytpe. Does this impact Cross-blooded in any way? No. Cross-blooded was not altered in any way from this choice. The base Elemental Bloodline was altered, but the Cross-blooded Archetype was not.

The powers are the same. Just becauase at 9th level a power is replaced, does not alter that that power was replaced. Nor does it alter Cross-blooded allowing you to take either power. If you hit 9th level and have a choice between Primal Elemental and Aberration, you can't choose the Elemental feature because that option was modified by the Wild-blooded. It did not modify Cross-blooded at all.

Cross-blooded gives you the option to choose either. Wild-blooded replaces one of the powers in the Bloodline. You still have your option changed while not at all altering what Cross-blooded provides.

I see this is a Pathfinder society ruling. They are conservative about their rulings. If the Pathfinder developers make some official ruling, maybe I'll follow it.

At the moment I don't agree with your interpretation of the rule you cited. I don't think Cross-blooded or Wild-blooded alter or replace the same feature. I think they are compatible. I think Cross-blooded incorporates the features of Wild-blooded rather than alters or replaces them as in the Wild-blooded Class features and Cross-blooded Class features are both all there once you take both archetypes neither having been altered or replaced.

Wild-blooded alters and replaces elements of the base Bloodline while Cross-blooded incorporates elements of two bloodlines altering nor replacing either. At least that is how I run it until I get an official ruling otherwise and I don't take my rulings from Pathfinder society.


Raith Shadar wrote:
Can you take Elemental Bloodline Arcana? Nope. Gone from options due to Wild-blooded Archeytpe. Does this impact Cross-blooded in any way? No. Cross-blooded was not altered in any way from this choice. The base Elemental Bloodline was altered, but the Cross-blooded Archetype was not

Well there's your problem.

You are thinking Wildblooded alters specifically the Elemental Arcana. It does not--archetypes work on class features, so it alters the "Bloodline Arcana" class feature.

Crossblooded then alters the "Bloodline Arcana" class feature buy having you gain two benefits instead of one.

Crossblooded does not alter the Primal arcana in any way, but both of those modify the same class feature.

Silver Crusade

Raith, since this appears to be a home game, you can rule it however you like. However, the RAW and RAI is that Wildblooded and Cross-blooded do not stack.

Here's the problem with your way of looking at it, though. The class feature that is changed is the entire bloodline, not a specific arcana. If you are cross-blooded, you do not get all of the benefits of both bloodlines because you do not get all of the arcane of both bloodlines. Wildblooded changes the arcana. How can you not see that both wildblooded and cross-blooded both affect the bloodline as a whole? Not individual pieces of the bloodline, but the bloodline as a whole.


Since we are getting into houserules, how about a custom feat that grants an Arcana?

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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+5 Toaster wrote:
Since we are getting into houserules, how about a custom feat that grants an Arcana?

Yeah I feel like having a feat that requires Eldritch Heritage and gives you the Arcana would be totally reasonable. Something like:

Eldritch Arcana
Prerequisites: Eldritch Heritage, Cha 13
Benefit: You gain the Bloodline Arcana of the bloodline which you have the Eldritch Heritage feat for.
Normal: Eldritch Heritage only grants you the bloodline powers of the chosen bloodline.

Simple enough.


There has to be some kind of criteria for what constitutes "replace" or "alter". I was going by whether the text of the ability was altered or replaced. Cross-blooded alters or replaces no text in a sorcerer's abilities. You literally copy and paste the ability as written onto your character sheet when taking Cross-blooded with the Wild-blooded archetype.

Now alter or replace is being judged as simply affecting the same ability in anyway even if it doesn't alter or change any of the text of the original ability? I think you can definitely make an argument by RAW that the Archetypes are compatible. The only way to discern RAI is word from the developers or best guess.

Granting two Bloodline Arcana does not alter the Bloodline Arcana by changing the text. You copy and paste the text exactly as is from the ability. Which means it is still the Elemental Bloodline which means it can still be modified by Wild-blooded.

An example of an alteration would be Two-Hander Fighter Weapon Training which alters weapon training to work only with two-handed weapons. Or a Hungry Ghost Monks Steal Ki which replaces Wholeness of Body.

I guess we were all looking at different criteria for alter and replace. I was looking specifically how Cross-blooded affects the text of an ability. Most of you seem to be looking at whether it is associated with a given ability.

I think I'll keep using alteration or replacement of the text as my guide. I feel it is a more concrete method of determining what alter and replace mean when it comes to rules.


Quote:
A crossblooded sorcerer selects two different bloodlines. The sorcerer may gain access to the skills, feats, and some of the powers of both bloodlines she is descended from, but at the cost of reduced mental clarity and choice (see Drawbacks).
Quote:
A wildblooded sorcerer has a mutated version of a more common bloodline, with one arcana and at least one bloodline power that are different from those of an unmutated bloodline. When creating a wildblooded sorcerer, select an existing bloodline, then select one of the following mutated bloodlines associated with that bloodline. Use the normal bloodline’s class skill, bonus spells, and bonus feats, and the mutated bloodline’s bloodline arcana. Use the normal bloodline’s bloodline powers, except when the mutated bloodline replaces one of those powers.

How is this not compatible? A Cross-blooded sorcerer selects two different bloodlines and a Wild-blooded sorcerer has a mutated bloodline? Why would a Cross-blooded Sorcerer not be able to choose a mutated bloodline?

Quote:
A crossblooded sorcerer gains the bloodline arcana of both her bloodlines.

No replace language whatsoever. No alteration language.

There is not a single reference to alter or replace language common to archetypes in Cross-Blooded. Wild-Blooded alters or replaces a few powers of a Bloodline that they refer to as a mutated bloodline. Cross-blooded allows you to select two bloodlines, specific language from Cross-blooded archetype. Nowhere does it say one of the bloodlines can't be a Wild-blooded mutated bloodline.

Even the individual entries for mutated bloodlines read like this:

Quote:
This ability replaces the Abyssal Bloodline Arcana.

It does not read this replaces the Bloodline arcana.

The individual powers read like this:

Quote:
This bloodline power replaces strength of the abyss.

Even the Wild-blooded bloodlines replace specific powers which the Cross-blooded Archetype still grants if you take the appropriate bloodline. Thus you can replace them with a Wild-blooded Archetype. To put it more succinctly Cross-blooded does not change Strength of the Abyss so you can still choose to substitute Wings of the Abyss.

I took this information from the Pathfinder SRD. It definitely implies by RAI they are compatible. Just looked at the official System Reference document for Paizo. It confirms what is on the Pathfinder SRD.

No replace or alter language with the Cross-blooded Archetype. They read as very compatible. When you do the exchanges of abilities, neither effectively.

By RAI I do not think it would be surprising at all for a Cross-blooded sorcerer to be descended from a Wild-blooded Primal Elemental and a Aberrant Blooded sorcerer marriage listed as an example of how a Cross-Blooded sorcerer is created.

I do believe that my RAW reading is correct. I continue to encourage anyone that thinks otherwise to do the exchange. I mean exactly as it reads, not using the Pathfinder Society ruling.

I mean write it all down. See if any text is altered or replaced. Check to see if it violates the description of each archetype (the RAI). And then look at the final outcome.

I think you will find that no rules text has been altered or replaced when applying both the Wild-blooded and Cross-blooded archetype to the same sorcerer. A Wild-blooded sorcerer has a mutated bloodline, a Cross-blooded sorcerer incorporates the power of two bloodlines. It is very specific about what each does. Nowhere does it say one of those bloodlines can't be a mutated Wild-blooded Bloodline.

If you are set on following the Pathfinder Society ruling, so be it. I hope those claiming RAW indicates otherwise will now look again at the two archetypes. By RAW they are very much compatible. I think by RAI they were meant to be compatible. Even the description of each archetype indicates compatibility unless you believe a Cross-blooded sorcerer can't for some reason be created by a sorcerer parent with a mutated Bloodline. I'm not going to continue the argument, but I do believe by RAW my viewpoint is well supported.


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Raith Shadar wrote:
Now alter or replace is being judged as simply affecting the same ability in anyway even if it doesn't alter or change any of the text of the original ability?

Yes, that is exactly what you are supposed to do.

Raith Shadar wrote:
I think you can definitely make an argument by RAW that the Archetypes are compatible. The only way to discern RAI is word from the developers or best guess.

You can make any argument, but it would not be correct. Both alter the Arcana class feature. Period--end of issue. You don't have to analyze any further.

Raith Shadar wrote:
How is this not compatible?

Because both make a change to the way the Bloodline Arcana class feature works.

One changes the power you would normally receive, and the other adds a second power. Both alter the base, so they are not compatible.

Raith Shadar wrote:
I do believe that my RAW reading is correct. I continue to encourage anyone that thinks otherwise to do the exchange. I mean exactly as it reads, not using the Pathfinder Society ruling.

I have never played PFS, never read the PFS rules, have no interest in ever playing PFS, and do not care the slightest bit about PFS. I do base my ruling on the literal RAW text, and it is very clear to me based only on the text that they are not compatible.


mplindustries wrote:
I have never played PFS, never read the PFS rules, have no interest in ever playing PFS, and do not care the slightest bit about PFS. I do base my ruling on the literal RAW text, and it is very clear to me based only on the text that they are not compatible.

So, when you said "it's been ruled," you meant "in your campaign, you ruled."

The point itself has been the subject of tremendous discussion -- and I'm afraid I do not regard your ruling as dispositive.


I'd say no as you cannot class spells

Eldritch Heritaget gives you access to the blood lines if you want them that bad.

Grand Lodge

strayshift wrote:

I'd say no as you cannot class spells

Eldritch Heritaget gives you access to the blood lines if you want them that bad.

That's your houserule.

Not RAW.

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