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from this thread
The Cayden Cailean Problem
History is interwoven with myth and legend.
The Gods also change a little. They are not static. Many gods we know today were slightly different during the Azlanti civilization, like Abadar. We know this from their depiction in the ruins of Savith-Yhe.
Ok, the Azlanti having gods isn't all that surprising on its own. But then I remembered the Aboleth involvement in its development. If the Aboleth were as involved as we are led to believe. It should have been a simple thing to prevent the culture from developing followings of the gods.
So, what I can guess is that it didn't matter to them or it was too useful a tool for control that it was not a threat. And if that is the case it wouldn't matter to them now if the Humans had gods. So those countries that are Anti-Religious (Rahadourm, Hermea) may not be that big of an indicator of a veiled master.
But who would it profit to have a nation without religion?
Interesting. Not sure if I buy it.
However you do point to an interesting conundrum. The Azlanti did have gods, but aboleth are very disdainful of them and of religion.
I doubt we'll get an official comment, but someday there this contradiction is going to come up in setting material and/or adventures.
It reminds me of Brandon Hodge's Sunken Empires, which is not Golarion based, but discusses the same contradiction.
Just becasue the Aboleth had gods doesn't mean they would have stopped their human test subjects from believing in them.
On the contrary that would yet be another handy means of monitoring and influence. Note that I wouldn't say control, because if the aboleths had actual control, they would not have needed to take the drastic and risky action of Earthfall.
I'm not going to say you're wrong, because I don't know enough to base that disagreement upon anything.
But.. Gods represent an alternative source of authority, influence, and POWER. Divine power is measurable and tangible power.
Respectfully I can't envision the aboleths being ambivalent about the Azlanti relationship with the divine, but what exactly their reaction was I can't speculate upon with what we know.
There's no telling how closely the Aboleth were monitoring their experiment. They may have "allowed" Azlant to grow for centuries or millennia before "checking in" on them. Then, of course, they decided to drop a star on them. Deity worship may have contributed to their decision.
Hmm...
What if the Azlanti didn't have gods before the Serpent War? What if they picked them up from the other Natives, Cyclops, and other allies?
What if the reason Xin was exiled was not because he wanted to work with other races, but because he was "contaminated" with religion?
Hmm...
What if the Azlanti didn't have gods before the Serpent War? What if they picked them up from the other Natives, Cyclops, and other allies?
What if the reason Xin was exiled was not because he wanted to work with other races, but because he was "contaminated" with religion?
An interesting spin on Lissala as an "invader" god. Makes me wish I knew the construction of Savith-Yhe in relationship to the Thassalonian Empire. (Of, course it might be on some compiled timelines, I don't have time to check right now).
I theroy that Xin created Saventh-Yhi. I also theroy he taught the Old Mage Jatembe. There is a small blurb about the compainons of Savith. If I remember, it mentions a wizard. It's a tiny thing, which could just mean random wizard...but I don't think so.
I theorize that Xin created Saventh-Yhi. I also theorize he taught the Old Mage Jatembe. There is a small blurb about the companions of Savith. If I remember, it mentions a wizard. It's a tiny thing, which could just mean random wizard...but I don't think so.
Unfortunately, Old Mage Jatembe was born & lived post Earthfall. Xin died, his soul trapped in a device of his own creation, pre Earthfall.
I theorize that Xin created Saventh-Yhi. I also theorize he taught the Old Mage Jatembe. There is a small blurb about the companions of Savith. If I remember, it mentions a wizard. It's a tiny thing, which could just mean random wizard...but I don't think so.Unfortunately, Old Mage Jatembe was born & lived post Earthfall. Xin died, his soul trapped in a device of his own creation, pre Earthfall.
Was he born after? Wiki entry says he worked to maintain culture and learning in the aftermath of the disaster. Being a wizard, his life span could have been quite long. If Xin trained him during the serpent war, and the aftermath of the Serpent war lead to the rise of the "great Mwangi civilization."
Also this always bugged me, "He conversed with both angels and demons, and learned secrets from the severed head of Ydersius before sewing its lips shut."
Jatembe knew where the head was or found it. But what if he knew where it was because he was there.
Going back to the Xin heresy, I think its even possible that when Xin created depictions of Lissala he made them as headless and serpent bodied. The depictions we have seem to come from Xin and the statues of the empire. It is possible that he depicted her as headless to subtly hint that she was not possible to kill as Ydersius was.
I think I have read that Lissala existed before Xin found her, and that he just reintroduced her. If he found her, where? The serpent body may show us. Its possible that he came to worship her after learning from captured Serpent folk tomes. The Aboleth could see the worship of gods as a disease that the humans picked up during the war and exiled them to
try and curtail the "infection." When Thassilon grew to big and the Infection of religion got to out of control in Azlant, they "nuked" the contaminated area to try and stop it. Too late.
What Irnk says is true. Also, I doubt Lissala has those links to the Serpentfolk.
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I don't think the Aboleth could prevent the Azlanti from finding/worshiping the Gods any more than they could prevent the Azlanti overstepping other boundaries. I see it simply as the Azlanti just eventually adapted beyond Abolethen control/influence.
I personally do like the proposed link between the Serpentfolk and Lissala. It would tie in nicely with Xin's desire to expand. If you look at the world-conquering drive of the Serpentfolk you can't help but wonder just how much influence Lissala may have had on both cultures.
What Irnk says is true. Also, I doubt Lissala has those links to the Serpentfolk.
Help me out with the Old Mage, where is the reference to him being born post Earthfall. I can't nail it down.
Thanks :)
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What Irnk says is true. Also, I doubt Lissala has those links to the Serpentfolk.Help me out with the Old Mage, where is the reference to him being born post Earthfall. I can't nail it down.
Thanks :)
There is very little on Jatembe, but most of it can be found on this article at PathfinderWiki.
Somehow, I would like to think of Old Mage Jatembe as still alive, trying to make a difference. (Having a powerful figure behind the scenes does not diminish heroic player characters. Perhaps Jatembe is working at some important task that consumes his time and is hoping to one day find a successor.)
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I don't think the Aboleth could prevent the Azlanti from finding/worshiping the Gods any more than they could prevent the Azlanti overstepping other boundaries. I see it simply as the Azlanti just eventually adapted beyond Abolethen control/influence.
Just to be clear, I don't disagree with this at all.
I just don't think the aboleth were nonchalant or ambivalent about it.
If I had to guess, I would say they got really pissed—in a piscine sort of way.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Also this always bugged me, "He conversed with both angels and demons, and learned secrets from the severed head of Ydersius before sewing its lips shut."
Jatembe knew where the head was or found it. But what if he knew where it was because he was there.
It's worth remembering that the bit about Jatembe finding the head of Ydersius is a legend, and may not be true, strictly speaking. For one thing, it doesn't entirely jive with the ultimate fate of the head, as revealed in...
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I am insane, feel free to ignore me, this is all theory...
And here we go...
Ok, reading through the wiki entry leaves everything open. There is some wording that leads me to believe as I do.
“worked to maintain culture and learning in the aftermath of the disaster.”
the key words are “maintain” and “in the aftermath.”
That leads me to think that “Old Mage” was indeed alive and kicking before Earthfall.
“According to legend, there was a great Mwangi civilization in the Mwangi Expanse”
Ird.
If we listen to the legends , “Some credit Jatembe and his Warriors with the destruction of Ird, a lost city whose surviving relics paint a picture of a foul and decadent culture. However, some foreign scholars speculate that Ird may also have been the birthplace of Jatembe. Repeating the latter theory in the Magaambya is not recommended.”
What if Ird was Jatembe's birthplace and what if it was foul and decadent. “Artifacts of Ird have been found in the later Rastel and Terwa cultures, and also in Arzikal. They provide a picture of slavery, decadence and an apparently immortal ruling caste who traded in the souls and lives of the commoners.”
Sounds like an Azlanti outpost ruled by a Veiled Master...maybe. Lets circle back up, “However, some foreign scholars speculate that Ird may also have been the birthplace of Jatembe. Repeating the latter theory in the Magaambya is not recommended.”
Why? Why in Magaambya (the arcane academy) and not in Nantambu (the city)? Perhaps, because Magaambya is sitting on top of the ruins of Ird.
I found the thought of Magaambya interesting so jumped into Inner Sea Magic. “Ancient Mwangi Magic”, allows you to pick spells from the Druid list. Interesting. So we have a wizard school that has roots in Druid magic, almost like a left over from the old ways of a tribe to the new ways. We can theorize then that Jatembe may have been more than a wizard and taught both ways to his students.
Again back to the beginning. “Jatembe and his ten disciples – the Magic Warriors gave up even their names, and are now recognizable only by their golden masks shaped in the form of fantastic jungle creatures .”
So Jatembe's first class (insert x-men joke here) all wore mask shaped in the form of fantastic jungle creatures? Or is it possible that they all had Druidic training as well. Interesting.
Ok, leaping around here a bit.
In Pathfinder #42 (0_0) Sanctum of the Serpent God, we are treated to some of Savith's Legend on page 10. The first item says she chose a group of companions to help her in slaying Ydersius.
“An Azlanti Wizard, a Azlanti priest of Desna, a cyclops general, a lizardfolk chieftain, and the king of an ancient tribe of human jungle warriors.”
Now its a leap but the Azlanti Wizard could be Xin. Granted it can also be the Coil of Ydersius that Aveshai (the Cyclops) was locked in stasis with, but I am going on the theory that it was Xin. Also, it is a leap but the “king” could be a young Jatembe.
If young Jatembe was part of the party to help slay Ydersius then he could have been there as they tried to destroy the skull. It could have taunted them and spilled secrets trying to bargain for its life, and to silence it so they could think, Jatembe could have sewn its lip shut. Then when Savith tossed the head into the lake of fire. The tread would have been destroyed.
Another Xin link to Saventh-Yhi is the Spires themselves. It appears a similar weapon was used in the north when Azlant defeated the Serpent Folk there. The Mobhad Leigh has the same pattern/design as the spires once they are activated only larger. I think they made one big one in the north, found it unstable, and re-designed it in the south when they ready for another assault on a serpent folk city. Even Aveshai new of the spears as they where being built even before the assault on Ilmurea.
The many races working as one theme is prevalent in Azlanti defeat of the Serpentfolk, and yet Xin was exiled for those exact beliefs. I believe, he would have had to experienced working with other races to believe in it enough to risk exile and expulsion from his homeland.
If Xin and Jatembe adventured together during the Serpent War, the exchange of ideas could have easily happened. PCs share spell books. ;)
Xin could of taught the king of “High” magic and Jatembe could have told Xin of the gods. Another link between the two is the “Old” nomenclature. Both Xin and Jatembe are referred to as “Old”
I have considered that the statues to Lissala also might represent more than just a goddesses image. It might be a memorial. The Serpent tail is at the bottom representing the past and what came before. The Female body with whip and headless represent Azlant and the sacrifice of Savith. The Six wings represent Azlant and its allies transcending (Giants, Lizardfolk, Azlanti, Mwangi, Varisian, Ulfen) into the true face of Lissala. The Rune itself is Lissala and it rules over all.
Why does my brain work this way...the destruction of Ird.
What if the catalyst for the Starstone didn't start in Azlant but in Ird. What if to protest the treatment of the commoners, i.e. Mwangi. Jatembe started a rebellion against the Azlanti rulers in Ird who turned out to be veiled masters. The rumors spread of how the Azlanti were being controlled, and before long even the Azlanti rallied against their leaders/veiled masters. In this way Jatembe's actions could have triggered the events that led to Earthfall and wiped out Ird, which was rebuilt into the Magaambya and then the city of Nantambu.
I need a drink...
Publisher, Chief Creative Officer
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A couple of random comments.
Old Mage Jatembe's magic is home grown in Garund, and is not the result of a gift from a benign light-skinned benefactor.
It's not like hatred of religion is the only thing that drives the veiled masters. My general sense of Azlanti history has the aboleths creating humanity as a sort of long-term experiment. Eventually, it grows out of the petrie dish and gets too complicated. There are long, long eras of Azlanti history wherein their progenitors were absent, disinterested, in torpor, etc. Very near the end, they attempted to reassert control. When this failed, they brought catastrophe to the world.
Debating with the Chief Creative Officer…I am insane…
Old Mage Jatembe's magic is home grown in Garund, and is not the result of a gift from a benign light-skinned benefactor.
We all learn somewhere, or from something. Thassilonian Rune Magic and Tempest-Sun Mages appear to be two completely different styles. Where the Thassilonians are “Hyper” Specialist, the Tempest-Sun Mages sound more like Mystic Theurge (Universalist / Druids). I get that because of how “complex” rune magic was the Thassilonians had to specialize to grasp even a fraction of what Xin knew. I always guessed that Xin was a Universalist*, mainly because how could he be the master of all the rune magic if not. Xin had overwhelming magical knowledge. What I had not considered is that Xin may have also been a Mystic Theurge. He is essentially Lissala’s high priest in Thassilon until his death. It is also possible that the seven virtues of rule were taught to Xin by “King” Jatembe. The exchange of ideas could have inspired them both.
The more I contemplate the Xin/Jatembe idea the more ways it feels like it works. I try imagining the campsite during the Serpent War. Savith in her golden armor; sharping her sword. Xin and Jatembe endlessly debating. The Cyclops standing silent vigil. The priest looking up at the stars playing a soft melody on a flute. The lizard folk chieftain munching down on some form of meat on a stick. This is a group that gets stuff done. These are the adventures that made the Golden Age.*I have not read through Shattered Star, it is possible he is detailed further there.
It's not like hatred of religion is the only thing that drives the veiled masters. My general sense of Azlanti history has the aboleths creating humanity as a sort of long-term experiment. Eventually, it grows out of the petrie dish and gets too complicated. There are long, long eras of Azlanti history wherein their progenitors were absent, disinterested, in torpor, etc. Very near the end, they attempted to reassert control. When this failed, they brought catastrophe to the world.
All this did was make me question the “Virus” that Aboleth are trying to kill. Instead of a religious virus, it is an Azlanti Virus. Azlanti could be a bio-weapon created by the Aboleth to destroy their competition, Serpent Folk, for planet dominance. Heck, Azlant itself is the petrie dish. Once the Aboleth realized that Azlanti were spreading outside of the dish, Thassilon, they tried to contain it.
Lots of interesting connections in there, Broken! That was epic!
Thanks Erik, you guys put so much work into what you put out, all the extra little bits of legends and lore can lead to some really cool places.
hmm...two more threads to consider tugging at.
In Southern Garund there is the Nation of Droon. "The land consists mainly of swampy river deltas, and is ruled by dinosaur-riding lizardfolk." Could be the leftovers of the Lizard Folk Chieftain.
And Holomog, "Holomog is a nation of warriors and artisans with traditions going back to the time of Ancient Azlant, and covers much of Garund's south-eastern coast." Matriarchy of warrior women sounds like amazons or the daughters of Savith.
Just thoughts, too little info to go on.
I don't think the Aboleth could prevent the Azlanti from finding/worshiping the Gods any more than they could prevent the Azlanti overstepping other boundaries.
I agree; in a world where the gods can speak directly to mortals (if they so choose), I'm not sure how you can prevent the gods from doing so, other than by being a god yourself perhaps.
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Wow, really? I had assumed that Xin invented Lisalla as a way to explain Virtue simply to people who couldn't understand his philosophy, through an idealization of the Virtuous person.
Then, when the Runelords took over and warped Virtue into Sin, they likewise corrupted Lisalla, turning the constructed religion into a doctrinal tool to control people without magic: with blind faith, especially devoted to fate, sin and obedience, the populace could do it all themselves. Eventually, all the magic and faith surrounding the idealization (perhaps aimed at a specifically bound outsider?) ignited a divine spark or however you want to describe it, allowing clerics of Lisalla to cast divine spells.
As I've read neither Rise of the Runelords nor Shattered Star, but have played many Season 4 PFS scenarios, one of my more philosophical characters has come to the same conclusion, and got depressed at how many people would happily give their minds over to a made-up goddess purely to justify their laziness and recreational drug use. "Get a job, you gullible cultists!"
I like the conspiracy theory that Jatembe eventually went underground, moved north, and changed his name to... Aroden.
(Which would mean that the Last Azlanti wasn't Azlanti at all, but, hey, history is sometimes obscure, right?)
And that is why he had to be killed before his return.
I like this speculation. :)
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I don't think the Aboleth could prevent the Azlanti from finding/worshiping the Gods any more than they could prevent the Azlanti overstepping other boundaries.I agree; in a world where the gods can speak directly to mortals (if they so choose), I'm not sure how you can prevent the gods from doing so, other than by being a god yourself perhaps.
Once someone showed up and said: "Hey Bob, check it out, I can raise the dead and heal with a touch." Gods would become a new commodity/resource no civilization would want to be without.
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Once someone showed up and said: "Hey Bob, check it out, I can raise the dead and heal with a touch." Gods would become a new commodity/resource no civilization would want to be without.I don't think the Aboleth could prevent the Azlanti from finding/worshiping the Gods any more than they could prevent the Azlanti overstepping other boundaries.I agree; in a world where the gods can speak directly to mortals (if they so choose), I'm not sure how you can prevent the gods from doing so, other than by being a god yourself perhaps.
Well, oracles and druids don't seem to need gods and are almost as good as clerics. They represent pantheism and pre-organized religion pretty well. They might, additionally, be more useful in pre-urban societies, with their specialization and ability to control natural phenomena. I suspect clerics are specifically a natural outcome of urban civilization, since they can be trained, as opposed to appearing spontaneously, like oracles, or having taboos against city-dwelling like most druids.
Of course, living in cities is a great way to catch a disease or get killed, as opposed to healthy rural living.
I think the real question is: Why did the Aboleths want humans building cities? That was the real Azlanti innovation, as far as I can see (aside from the claims of Vudra).
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It's not like hatred of religion is the only thing that drives the veiled masters. My general sense of Azlanti history has the aboleths creating humanity as a sort of long-term experiment. Eventually, it grows out of the petrie dish and gets too complicated. There are long, long eras of Azlanti history wherein their progenitors were absent, disinterested, in torpor, etc. Very near the end, they attempted to reassert control. When this failed, they brought catastrophe to the world.
Oh, I agree completely, Erik. I don't know if this was in reference to my comment or not. It seemed like some comments were suggesting the role of religion played no role in the schism between land-dwelling humanoids and aboleths. I don't think that is true. On the other hand, as you say, it was the exclusive reason for the falling out either. It was a combination of many factors.
@ All Participants: As with anything, there is a lot of Golarion lore hidden in obscure places. Some of it gets quietly faded out or adjusted, but some of it doesn't. I am not as good as Mark Moreland, but Jim Groves can still surprise you once in awhile.
You want to talk conspiracies? Let's go diggin' for clues!
The ugothols are a malevolent race of shapechanging aberrations whose methods and nature mark them more as parasites or diseases than actual residents of the environs they inhabit. Although their nomadic and savage natures certainly don’t speak to it, the ugothols are among the oldest of Golarion’s races. The first ugothols were created by the aboleths long ago, after the rise of the second aboleth empire, when the lords of the deep tried a stealthier method to curtail and destroy the development of airbreathing races after a full-scale invasion resulted in the collapse of the first empire. The ugothols were chameleons, elastic creatures of flesh and bone capable of adopting the shape of a diverse array of air-breathers, yet remaining under the complete control of the aboleths through the deep lords’ use of master glyphs deep in the Arcadian Ocean. This invasion was much more successful than the previous one, and numerous burgeoning civilizations collapsed from within as they became infected with ugothol spies. It took the destruction of the master glyphs and the entire aboleth city of Voshgurvaghol to bring this incursion to an end. The aboleths have yet to mount a third offensive against the world above, and they’ve long since abandoned the ugothol to their own devices.
Sorry for all the boldface and italics, but I wanted to highlight certain points.
1.) Two invasions of the surface world. The first direct conflict did not pan out obviously. The secondary invasion via subterfuge was successful.
2.) The second invasion was brought to an end when 'something' destroyed the master glyphs.
3.) We do know the name of an aboleth city. Voshgurvaghol. We know it is in the Arcadian Ocean. Hehehe. Unless they retcon this, I feel like I am tellin' you kids about R'lyeh for the very first time.
4.) The third offensive has not yet occurred.
Now before I get all smug, there is a good chance that some of this will be "adjusted" by the Creative Director or the Chief Creative Officer. I won't blame them if it is. This lore was written a very long time ago, and sometimes background has to be tweaked.
Though, they're usually not shy about saying when something HAS been adjusted. So if they remain silent, you can draw your own conclusions.
Was it just a case of the Azlanti not obeying the aboleths? Or did the humanoids get cocky enough to go down to Voshgurvaghol and destroy the master glyphs—to which the aboleths got all mad and called down the Starstone in response? I mean, gillmen could survive the trip down there, could they not?
(All of a sudden I want underwater adventures again, to make this possible)
If you have enjoyed this post, please visit this sister thread! Where I am in search of Distant World answers from James Sutter and his accomplices!
Wow, really? I had assumed that Xin invented Lisalla as a way to explain Virtue simply to people who couldn't understand his philosophy, through an idealization of the Virtuous person.
Then, when the Runelords took over and warped Virtue into Sin, they likewise corrupted Lisalla, turning the constructed religion into a doctrinal tool to control people without magic: with blind faith, especially devoted to fate, sin and obedience, the populace could do it all themselves. Eventually, all the magic and faith surrounding the idealization (perhaps aimed at a specifically bound outsider?) ignited a divine spark or however you want to describe it, allowing clerics of Lisalla to cast divine spells.As I've read neither Rise of the Runelords nor Shattered Star, but have played many Season 4 PFS scenarios, one of my more philosophical characters has come to the same conclusion, and got depressed at how many people would happily give their minds over to a made-up goddess purely to justify their laziness and recreational drug use. "Get a job, you gullible cultists!"
Nope & Nope & Nope. Lisalla long predated Xin & was always LE. She may (have been/ be) one of the few Evil Deities in Golarion/Pathfinder who qualified as more Lawful than Evil, but she was always Evil. Which is one of my big reasons for considering that Thassilon was doomed from the start.
Now I come from the opposite direction, having had nothing to do with Season 4, but bear in mind, if I remember correctly, the Lissalan cultists in those scenarios are specifically working to bring back the guy known as the Runelord of ...They're not going to be paragons of vigor & resolve.
Once someone showed up and said: "Hey Bob, check it out, I can raise the dead and heal with a touch." Gods would become a new commodity/resource no civilization would want to be without.I don't think the Aboleth could prevent the Azlanti from finding/worshiping the Gods any more than they could prevent the Azlanti overstepping other boundaries.I agree; in a world where the gods can speak directly to mortals (if they so choose), I'm not sure how you can prevent the gods from doing so, other than by being a god yourself perhaps.
Exactly my point. I think I was misunderstood earlier.
Edit: I removed a rebuttal that was too personal.
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I think the real question is: Why did the Aboleths want humans building cities? That was the real Azlanti innovation, as far as I can see (aside from the claims of Vudra).
One-stop shopping. Get them all clustered together, and they always seem to chose to build on the water. (If not always on the seashore, at least on the confluences of major rivers, for the larger communities.)
That's just terribly convenient for an aquatic race of masterminds.
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I think the real question is: Why did the Aboleths want humans building cities? That was the real Azlanti innovation, as far as I can see (aside from the claims of Vudra).One-stop shopping. Get them all clustered together, and they always seem to chose to build on the water. (If not always on the seashore, at least on the confluences of major rivers, for the larger communities.)
That's just terribly convenient for an aquatic race of masterminds.
Do you think they also pioneered the use of large, accessible sewer systems and canals? Hmm.
Great sell today at the local bookstore on used books, unfortunately there were no pathfinder books that were used. I took the opportunity to flip through a few (dozen) I do not have access to, to reference and caught the Magaambyan Arcanist in the Paths of Prestige book.
I am not sure how the prestige class lines up with my theories(didn't have time to study it in depth) on the Tempest-Sun Mages or even if the Magaambyan Arcanist are supposed to represent the same type of spell caster as the Tempest-Sun Mages. Another line to follow later.
Bringing the Awesome
I missed the Ugothol stuff, and the connection to the Azlanti Uprising is interesting.
I follow the Distant World thread, but do not have the book, so I am learning from your guys theories there.Azlanti Building Habbits
Coincidence of Azlanti Building
I made a similar observation on why the majority of the refugees of Azlant decided to build around the Inner sea, where the Last Azlanti would eventually raise the Starstone. Perhaps the Earthfall destroyed the “experiment” and moved the project into “operation.” I mean if your going to rule the surface and your aquatic make the “center” of the surface world a place you can exist. *Cough* Absalom.
I thought of this today, Let's say that to make a better warrior they Aboleth took lesser men and created the Azlanti. The Azlanti are then used as soldiers to fight the Serpent Folk for control of the Surface. Now the Aboleth wanted to exploit the humans adaptability to create warriors that would grow strong faster and be able to change with the threat that they encountered [i.e. the Azlanti Virus].
Everything is going well, the Azlanti defeat the Serpent folk in the North and the Aboleth “look away” for a bit. Then the Azlanti go fight the Serpent Folk in the South. One of them fights a god and wins. Thats when the Aboleth come back and find the Azlanti are out of the Petrie dish of Azlant [Thassilon] and they have “slayed” a god. Aboleth say, “They shouldn't have been able to do that. If they can do that, they could become gods. OH NOES, NUKE IT NOW!!!”
But they missed one...and a little bit of Azlanti DNA got out. Aroden proves the worst fears of the Aboleth. They have made humans capable of achieving god hood. Aroden, also figures out how to short cut the path to god hood for those who have a little Azlanti in them. Thats not to say that others can not get there on their own. [i.e. Irori] but that those with Azlanti are predisposed to do it faster.
The Aboleth found a way to make more of what they hate, gods.
Now, enter Mengkare. He's smart enough to realize what the Aboleth did,and now has replicated the petri dish on his own Island. His bad reputation is from the Aboleth tring to prevent him from recreating the Pure Azlanti race and essentially creating an army of good gods.
oh man it is 4am I gotta crash.
Very interesting ... plus some interesting tangents similar to the Prometheus movie!
@Broken You are glorious. This excellent work is now canon in my campaign. I'm considering offering the PCs invites to Hermean citizenship, and this would be an excellent time to play with a veiled master masquerading as a pirate lord who is tasked with destroying Mengkare's reputation.
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many interesting things based on the history of the ugothols
Jim, a few other things that struck me in the description, on a kind of timeline :
- First aboleth empire
- Aboleth try to curtail and destroy the development of air-breathers through direct methods (full-scale invasion) that result in the collapse of the first aboleth empire
- Rise of the second aboleth empire
- Creation of the ugothols to curtail and destroy the development of air-breathers through stealthy methods.
The ugothols are kept under complete control through the master glyphs.
- The master glyphs are destroyed, which ends the second incursion (aka the second aboleth empire).
The aboleths have not yet mounted a third offensive.
Also, the aboleths created humans (? what Erik said). The aboleths created Azlant (is it the same ?). The aboleths destroyed Azlant when it grew out of control (and dangerous to them).
Note that the ugothols are one of the oldest of golarion's races, which means that the rise of the second aboleth empire predated the birth of most modern races.
Note also that the air-breathers are not described.
I am left even more perplexed than when I started at how this all fits together.
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Now, enter Mengkare. He's smart enough to realize what the Aboleth did,and now has replicated the petri dish on his own Island. His bad reputation is from the Aboleth tring to prevent him from recreating the Pure Azlanti race and essentially creating an army of good gods.
whoah... mind blown...
OR...
Mengkare is an Aboleth Plot!
