Goblin Squad Member
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My general questions would be: will there be content? And with that, I mean...CONTENT!!! as in...huge amounts of interesting stories and quests to play though...and will it keep growing and growing?
If you're referring to the type of content one finds in theme-park games, that's explicitly and specifically what will *not* be in PFO. They've said there'll be some PVE content, but the majority is going to be the content generated by the players themselves.
Check out any of the extensive writing on EVE Online and you'll have a good mental framework for what to expect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I will keep this short....
We create the content. PFO is primarily a Sandbox, Open World PvP, MMO.
Our characters are the end game. That is our solo content in a sense.
This type of MMO is meant to be played for years, not just a few months.
Think of games like SWG and EvE Online, and forget about games like WoW or SWTOR.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I very strongly recommend you read A Journey of a Thousand Miles Begins with a Single Step, especially the section titled "Sandbox vs. Theme Park".
I would also recommend you read the rest of that blog, and you might find Guild Recruitment & Helpful Links useful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At launch that is hard to say.
It is the River Kingdoms so their are rivers that you could likely get transport boats in play, and along with that smuggler boats and pirate boats.
That said because they are planning for a MVP (Minimum Viable Project)at launch as to maintain depth without stretching themselves too thin by adding a multitude of shallow features.
I am doubtful we will see that type of play at launch, but I am confident it will get added to the game later down the road. The more desire the sooner it becomes a possibility.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Valiant - The Early Enrollment will be a (MVP) Minimum Viable Product so initially for at least 2 years it won't have this system of naval options. But I'd really really like to see it at some point if they expand the map or use the River Sellen (wide enough) for all the above. Nothing like a team-work of crew operating a ship and conducting trade, dominion and piracy on the high seas, open waters.
@Valiant
Feel free to join the PfO teamspeak discussions new blood is always welcome you will find a thread on this page somewhere telling you how to get on
@Vereor
What timezone are you and what time do you get off, generally it does tend to be americans currently so tends to be active between (7pm to around 11pm edt mostly, midnight to 4am for me :( )
If you were to post times you could be on you may find there are more people looking to chat in those hours and form another group of chatters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nautical aspects of the game will almost certainly be confined to rivers and small to moderate lakes for quite some time. The game is set in the River Kingdoms, which are pretty far inland from the nearest sea or ocean.
There will be invisible walls around our starter area, because The River Kingdoms don't have mountain ranges to separate our starting area, known as the Crusader Road region, from the rest of the world. Some discussion had already begun regarding the most plausible in-character explanation for our confinement.
It seems like jumping will be possible in the Unity engine, but it may not be implemented during Early Enrollment (essentially, a closed beta in the old sense of the phrase "beta test", when many systems are still being tested).
We'll be building Settlements (player-run towns). We don't know whether personal houses will ever be part of the game. During EE, we know that buildings won't have interiors, so player housing will definitely be later than that.
Politics, yes. Warfare between Settlements, yes. Alliances and eventually Nations of Settlements, yes. Assassins, yes. Traders, yes. Global Auction House, no. Local Markets, yes. PC Caravans hauling goods, yes. PC Bandits robbing the caravans, yes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My general questions would be: will there be content? And with that, I mean...CONTENT!!! as in...huge amounts of interesting stories and quests to play though...and will it keep growing and growing?If you're referring to the type of content one finds in theme-park games, that's explicitly and specifically what will *not* be in PFO. They've said there'll be some PVE content, but the majority is going to be the content generated by the players themselves.
Check out any of the extensive writing on EVE Online and you'll have a good mental framework for what to expect.
There is some discussion of the possibility of eventually having a system for players to create storylines, like the Forge system, but again, it's a speculative, "One day we'd love to have this" discussion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well I am American, EST Coast GMT -5
However like I said I work a late shift and usually don't get home until 12:30am (00:30) and tend to stay up until 2am (02:00) - 4am (04:00)
Those times could play out very neatly for you in PFO: You would likely find yourself sought out by those of us who are less nocturnal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Those times could play out very neatly for you in PFO: You would likely find yourself sought out by those of us who are less nocturnal.Well I am American, EST Coast GMT -5
However like I said I work a late shift and usually don't get home until 12:30am (00:30) and tend to stay up until 2am (02:00) - 4am (04:00)
I will be as nocturnal as well. I work midnights and try my best to keep that schedule on my days off... My wife thinks otherwise though lol.
We may end up with plenty of nocturnal people and Euros once the game catches on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Will be fun Im sure. I think we will be in a minority in the start of the game, but then again maybe not. Alot of people are nocturnal lol.
We may have to group up and hit some pve content together, if the server is not active on our time. (PVP may be rather slow for a while except random stuff)
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the end PvP does not create "stuff" its a resource sink, things get destroyed.
New Items in the game will come from:
- people killing and looting NPCS for finished items
- people crafting stuff from basic resources
The crafting people will get their resources from:
- people mining/growing/harvesting resources
- people reprocessing NPC loot back into basic resources
Thus there will be plenty of non-PvP content to indulge in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thats right, PVP will be a sink.
I actually had to argue with someone for a page in a thread about how PVP costs you resources. The argument against that thought was "it doesnt actually remove wealth from the game." I know it did for me lol. Items exploded (EVE) and were out of the game for good.
The pvp in this game should be some real fun. I cannot wait.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Xeen:
From what I understand of EVE (only limited time playing it), pvp is a resource sink in the sense that it removes ships and other equipment from game. That part seems pretty obvious. Ships blown up --> fewer ships in game.
Repeating what others have said: However, because of the insurance system EVE has, EVE pvp is an ISK source. You pay ISK to other players for the ship/equipment, so that ISK stays in game (it's in someone else's hands, but it's still in game). You collect insurance when your ship is blown up, so new ISK enters the game. Insurance is only a sink to the total ISK in game when your ship never gets blown up and the insurance expires.
So the point is that while pvp may be an overall sink for you (paying ISK for a ship, losing the ship and getting back insurance ISK which is less than what you paid), it is an ISK source overall. ISK never leaves the game through pvp and instead is added via the insurance system. Ships and equipment leave the game through pvp (obviously).
Now, if you remove the insurance system you remove the ISK source aspect of pvp. It becomes ISK neutral (for the total ISK in game) even if it's a sink for the person engaging in pvp. It's still a ship/equipment sink.
Unless there's an insurance system in PFO that I missed, then PFO pvp will be gold neutral (to the overall gold in game). Obviously it's a gold sink to the people actually engaging in pvp and an overall sink of gear due to some gear disappearing when looted.
The exception to this is when their gear is so low in quality that it can all be threaded. Then pvp isn't a sink at all ... unless PFO has a gear repair system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will likely be some middle ground of minimum equipment necessary to compete and consumables that should keep crafters busy.
The downside is that, because of threading, demand for the best gear will be a little more curtailed. Not eliminated, there will always be incoming players and those upgrading, just reduced.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Somewhere on these forums its been stated by a dev that the aim to threading is to allow a full set of basic (tier 1) gear to be threaded, an assortment of tier 2 gear and potentially only a single piece of tier 3 armor or weapon that is fully decked out. With this in mind, I still feel crafting will have a rather nice demand - it just might be more to specific order rather than churning out half a dozen vorpal swords a week.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Somewhere on these forums its been stated by a dev that the aim to threading is to allow a full set of basic (tier 1) gear to be threaded, an assortment of tier 2 gear and potentially only a single piece of tier 3 armor or weapon that is fully decked out. With this in mind, I still feel crafting will have a rather nice demand - it just might be more to specific order rather than churning out half a dozen vorpal swords a week.
Yep. The tier 1 case is the no-sink scenario. Not particularly effective in pvp, but likely a route many will take (eg bandits). Low risk low reward (you won't win fights very often to gain spoils, but don't risk anything).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmmm, what's the PFO equivalent of "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose"?It'll likely be an extension of the sixth River Freedom: "You Have What You Hold".
That would be great! I hope it catches on. Every connection between the pen and paper background material and things that we hear in game will help to reinforce the idea that this is a Pathfinder game, rather than a generic MMO with a Pathfinder logo slapped on it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Xeen:
From what I understand of EVE (only limited time playing it), pvp is a resource sink in the sense that it removes ships and other equipment from game. That part seems pretty obvious. Ships blown up --> fewer ships in game.
Repeating what others have said: However, because of the insurance system EVE has, EVE pvp is an ISK source. You pay ISK to other players for the ship/equipment, so that ISK stays in game (it's in someone else's hands, but it's still in game). You collect insurance when your ship is blown up, so new ISK enters the game. Insurance is only a sink to the total ISK in game when your ship never gets blown up and the insurance expires.
So the point is that while pvp may be an overall sink for you (paying ISK for a ship, losing the ship and getting back insurance ISK which is less than what you paid), it is an ISK source overall. ISK never leaves the game through pvp and instead is added via the insurance system. Ships and equipment leave the game through pvp (obviously).
Now, if you remove the insurance system you remove the ISK source aspect of pvp. It becomes ISK neutral (for the total ISK in game) even if it's a sink for the person engaging in pvp. It's still a ship/equipment sink.
Unless there's an insurance system in PFO that I missed, then PFO pvp will be gold neutral (to the overall gold in game). Obviously it's a gold sink to the people actually engaging in pvp and an overall sink of gear due to some gear disappearing when looted.
The exception to this is when their gear is so low in quality that it can all be threaded. Then pvp isn't a sink at all ... unless PFO has a gear repair system.
Back to the ship thing, For a Raven battleship, the last time i flew one it cost 110 million. High pay insurance costs was almost 20 million. The payout was I believe 65 million (could be 80mill) so a net loss of 50-65 million. Then of course there are fittings that explode with the ship, and rigs of course that always blow up with the ship and are not cheap. I usually spend 30-60 million on battleship rigs depending on the ship. And another 30 or so million on fittings that I will not likely get back and 50% explode. So overall when I lose a ship its a minimum 110 million for a battleship.
Now of course T2 ships which I mostly flew cost 150 mill per ship and insurance pays out 5 mill.
Creating ships does not cost tons of money, but it does cost time. Which could otherwise be use generating isk from a faucet source like missions or complexes. So yes, the person making the ship has my ISK. But from what I remember the money made is nothing more then could be made with above said faucets.
Back on PFO subject. Threading is going to save plenty of items, especially the expensive powerful ones. I dont know, maybe there needs to be more loss.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think you may be right about PFO needing more loss. In EVE, you just can't fly without a ship, and you can't fight without weapons and defenses. Some ship modules could be seen as closer to expendable/optional items, but everything can be blown up at any time, so player industrialists keep the factories running.
Expendable oils, sharpening stones, etc. aren't the same. You may be less effective, but in a pinch you can fight without them. I guess time will tell us whether PFO weapon and armor crafters will have steady work or not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The example is still a net faucet to the total ISK in game. Sure, you lose ISK, but the in-game total increases. The 110 million for the ship plus 30 million for rigs and 30 million on fittings are all ISK that stay in game, going to some combination of other players (minus some small transaction fees which form a small sink).
The 20 million insurance cost leaves the game, but the 65 million pay-off is added to the game. This 45 million increase more than off-sets the small transaction fees in the above paragraph. So still a net ISK faucet to the total ISK in game.
Whether or not it's more profitable for the crafters to craft the items you buy or just grind NPCs is another matter.
Minor correction to what I said above: in the June 12 blog there is a mention of gear repair under "Pathfinder Online During Open Enrollment (the MVP)". So that will form a small gold sink in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I understand the "its still in the game" argument, I just dont agree with it.
In the real world, money doesnt just vanish. The fact that in game money has to vanish for there to be real loss... makes no sense. I just find the argument a bit weak. (No offense ment Nightdrifter)
Money is lost and made by everyone, in a cycle, and it will continue permanently. Some get lucky, and others save it away. Others like me will blow it on PVP to have fun. My gold level will stay very low, enough to equip my next pvp outing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sure, it's a little fake having money being created/destroyed. If you don't count the banker then even Monopoly has the same issue.
Though that's really the core of the issue with faucets and sinks: we're simply brushing under the rug the fact that from an RP perspective we ignore the wealth of NPCs. If we took them into account everything should balance out and no wealth is created/destroyed.
I too am usually broke in games, though that's largely due to "screw it, I don't wanna run dailies/grind" followed by figuring out which alt has enough gold to pay for whatever I want on my main ... inevitably followed a while later by "why is every toon on this account broke?!". :p
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Goblin Squad Member
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Minor correction to what I said above: in the June 12 blog there is a mention of gear repair under "Pathfinder Online During Open Enrollment (the MVP)". So that will form a small gold sink in PFO.
Interesting that I missed this nugget. I believe that it may refer to the re application of the "consumable buffs" that have been talked about:
We have to build up the economy so that there are a wide variety of resources that need to be harvested, from various areas of the map, so that no single settlement is self-sustaining. We have to have the necessary depth of character systems so that people can specialize as harvesters, processors, or crafters, as well as transporters and guards. We need to add enough challenge to the environment so that players are routinely engaged in the kinds of activities that consume resources and require the repair or replacement of gear. That means we have to have a variety of threats suitable to challenge players from solo new characters up to large parties of experienced characters.
Nice catch Nightdrifter! ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am not sure how the insurance thing in the EVE example is overly relevant as insurance pays a small fraction of a ship loss. Especially faction ships where the ship is worth a few hundred million is insured for about half that but if its an incursion boat for example may contain a billion dollars or more of uninsured faction gear which the "winner" may loot 10% or 20%.
In EVE there is no threading.
Basically in any game of the sandbox type stuff comes into a game when its mined and then refined/crafted or when loot is taken from a NPC.
Money comes into the game as mission rewards, bounties on NPCs, insurance payouts.
Things leave the game when someone rage-quits and deletes the account, someone dies at the hands of either a NPC or in PVP ... or when a player deliberately trashes stuff instead of selling it.
hence in EVE ---
PVP in EVE is mainly a resource sink because the insurance money is minimal and even though the winner may get some loot from the losers wreck, a majority of the resources invested in the destroyed ship and its cargo simply disappear.
PvE in EVE is mainly a resource feed because despite the occasional gear loss with a player death to the rats/monsters/traps the looted gear and Mission rewards being "created" substantially out weigh any losses.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Minor correction to what I said above: in the June 12 blog there is a mention of gear repair under "Pathfinder Online During Open Enrollment (the MVP)". So that will form a small gold sink in PFO.Interesting that I missed this nugget. I believe that it may refer to the re application of the "consumable buffs" that have been talked about:
We have to build up the economy so that there are a wide variety of resources that need to be harvested, from various areas of the map, so that no single settlement is self-sustaining. We have to have the necessary depth of character systems so that people can specialize as harvesters, processors, or crafters, as well as transporters and guards. We need to add enough challenge to the environment so that players are routinely engaged in the kinds of activities that consume resources and require the repair or replacement of gear. That means we have to have a variety of threats suitable to challenge players from solo new characters up to large parties of experienced characters.Nice catch Nightdrifter! ;)
Oddly enough, I read that quote as indicating that PvE would be a coin faucet combined with a finished goods drain; most people will turn a profit on most dungeons, after accounting for the finished goods they buy with the coin they found.