Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm using the phrase "Zen Gaming" because I read about this in the developers blog for the Stargate MMO (which unfortunately was cancelled), however the article and term were still sound.
MMO's are social environments. It's quite common for players to log into the game and jump around in circles and just chat, or look for something to do other than going out into the "wilderness" to attack monsters or other player, or go foraging for resources to craft.
This being said it's good to have other pursuits, or fun things for characters to do in the game (and even more so in a sandbox MMO environment). And this doesn't have to be isolated to creating one sort of "mini game" for players to do. It's always nice for the devs to have a lot of options, or to keep adding things.
It could be a number of small things, like having a functioning chess or checkers board in an inn, 2 players could sit down and play a real game.
Another very popular one is badges and achievements in games. Which can be quite extensive from numbers of quests completed, monsters kills, num bers of types of monsters killed, how much damage you've dealt/taken/healed, exploration. City of Heroes/Villains had the most fantastic badge/achievement system I've seen in an MMO. I would log in and just spend time exploring and badge hunting. And making achievements badges that you can look at in a characters info (like certain badges look different, instead of just listing player has done 'x' achievement is cooler. It's a small touch, and a small picture, but people love it).
Other examples, Guild Wars 2 has jumping puzzles hidden around the world. People love trying seeing if they're able to jump of to weird places in a game environment. I didn't even read about jumping puzzles, I found them completely by accident trying to figure out if I could jump up to a certain place. Then I was like "WTF is this hidden place?!", and called my buddies to come look. Stuff like that is cool.
Even fishing. I love fishing in MMO's. But most fishing is just boring and bland. The dev's could put more effort into it, make a fishing mini game. Give us different types of bait, and tackle, fishing rods, etc.. Put more in than just pull up the rod when you get a bite. Remember it's the small things. I would love if they put in more detailed fishing in the game.
I'm sure there are many other ideas that can be added to the game as fun distractions for players when they are not "Xping" (And I know that advancement works differently here, I just used that as an example of the type of main activity).
Some MMO's have added collectible card games into their game even. If that's too much you could add decks of cards.
In original Everquest I used to play Gem's all the time. At first it was when I waited for my mana to regen as a wizard, then I just played. I believe one of my characters still holds the high score for the plane of knowledge for all of everquest (I had a friend logged in a bit over a year ago on a different server look, and my score from over 7 years ago was still in first place).
The more depth you add the better. The dev's don't have to stop at adding one thing.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Being,
The question of "what" we should be discussing and posting about has come up many times. Are we wasting our time bringing up suggestions that are anything but minimum viable product material or should we be brainstorming content hopefully available by OE? Does providing a wish list that may not be possible for years still provide the Devs with some insight into community desires or does it only serve to raise player expectations so high that when EE comes around, they will be disappointed with what is realistically available?
Perhaps one solution would be if the Devs made one of their blogs not a peek into what's coming or answering our questions, but rather a short list of what they would like us to discuss. Not a crowdforger vote, but simply several topics they would like us to focus on and provide feedback. They needn't say which ideas they find the most useful, only that these are the topics, at this point in development, that they would like to put our collective experience and creativity to work discussing.
I would like to think that everyone who posts here wants to help make PFO the best game possible. Having the Devs actually tell us how we can help them do that seems like a very good expenditure of our posting time.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Being,
The question of "what" we should be discussing and posting about has come up many times. Are we wasting our time bringing up suggestions that are anything but minimum viable product material or should we be brainstorming content hopefully available by OE? Does providing a wish list that may not be possible for years still provide the Devs with some insight into community desires or does it only serve to raise player expectations so high that when EE comes around, they will be disappointed with what is realistically available?
Perhaps one solution would be if the Devs made one of their blogs not a peek into what's coming or answering our questions, but rather a short list of what they would like us to discuss. Not a crowdforger vote, but simply several topics they would like us to focus on and provide feedback. They needn't say which ideas they find the most useful, only that these are the topics, at this point in development, that they would like to put our collective experience and creativity to work discussing.
I would like to think that everyone who posts here wants to help make PFO the best game possible. Having the Devs actually tell us how we can help them do that seems like a very good expenditure of our posting time.
Hobs, I'd actually like to keep the sort of organic postings we have like they are instead of getting into the habit of following a directive. Also, if the devs delineate input, alot of peeps will get the wrong impression that it's a poll of some kind and we open up the can of worms that people think they can 'vote' to eliminate open pvp or some such. We have learned a great deal by throwing ideas out there. For instance, my thread on renaming merit badges showed some people mistook them for a medal or something you'd actually wear; not a character progression 'level' granting abilities and/or access to feats. Like in five years the first twenty merit badge characters would look like some bozo from the pentagon testifying to congress. And I thought it was a half-serious thread that might get a few responses and one or two cool names. I feel the devs post when they want to address an issue, not because they think they 'should', having started the thread themselves.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I can think of several 'games' that would fit right at home.
Hawking and falconry - where a combination of your bird's skill and your own determine how well you do.
Target archery - very different from combat archery of course, but your skill with bows would naturally have an effect on the outcome.
Staying upright on a greasy pole - try to balance for as long as possible.
They could be set up as arcade-style side-games, almost like the Flash games currently online.
I doubt that 'games' such as bear-baiting and dog-fighting would ever make it in (rightly so, for my 2p worth), but some sort of active gambling really ought to be available.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Sephrum,
I have no interest in limiting people's choices of posting topics. The ideas presented on this forum have been varied, creative, and from the Devs own mouths (Gobbocast 9), apparently helpful to them. All I suggested was another possibility...for us to kick around a topic of their choosing. As I said, they needn't say which of our suggestions or ideas tickle their fancy more than others. As for voting, they already have a system for that.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Even fishing. I love fishing in MMO's. But most fishing is just boring and bland. The dev's could put more effort into it, make a fishing mini game. Give us different types of bait, and tackle, fishing rods, etc.. Put more in than just pull up the rod when you get a bite. Remember it's the small things. I would love if they put in more detailed fishing in the game.
My first experience with a fishing mini-game was Ocarina of Time:
You can imagine how excited, and then disappointed I was when I found fishing in MMO's. How many years has it been since OoT now? It's time an MMO does it right.
Obviously an OoT level fishing system is not part of MVP but it is something if like to see sometime after the game's release.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I really hope they don't waste their scarce developer resources building a fishing mini-game. I mean, it'll be fine if they have a few million subscribers and can seriously increase the size of their dev team, but as long as this is a budget MMO, please, no fishing.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think most of these suggestions are based on the assumption that the base game itself is up to scratch, and that the 'Zen Games' aren't going to be adversely affecting the game of killing monsters and looting their steaming corpses.
They're nice to have, but not why we want to play PFO.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I really hope they don't waste their scarce developer resources building a fishing mini-game. I mean, it'll be fine if they have a few million subscribers and can seriously increase the size of their dev team, but as long as this is a budget MMO, please, no fishing.
Ocarina of Time. Released in 1998. 15 years ago this November. A single player game on the one of the first 3D gaming systems ever made. There have been 15 years of improvements to game engines since then. They had to finish the entire game prior to release.
You think PFO can't make something equally as good as one of the many pieces of side content in that game, at any point, without it eating a ton of their time?
As I said in another topic, people will argue against any feature they don't intend to use themselves. They don't understand a successful MMO needs to cater to many styles of play, not just theirs.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As I said in another topic, people will argue against any feature they don't intend to use themselves. They don't understand a successful MMO needs to cater to many styles of play, not just theirs.
I very clearly understand that everyone here is posting about what they want prioritized.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I very clearly understand that everyone here is posting about what they want prioritized.
I really hope they don't waste their scarce developer resources building a fishing mini-game. I mean, it'll be fine if they have a few million subscribers and can seriously increase the size of their dev team, but as long as this is a budget MMO, please, no fishing.
You aren't just arguing in favor of what you want. You are saying that what you don't want is a waste of development resources.
I think there are a lot of people who disagree with you that side content is a waste of resources.
They aren't part of Minimum Viable Product but I don't think we need "millions" of subscribers to support some mini-games. Combat and crafting are all well and good, but I think they should start throwing in limited amounts of side content and social activities even during the EE.
Bashing heads and building things will only sustain interest for so long.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I very clearly understand that everyone here is posting about what they want prioritized.I really hope they don't waste their scarce developer resources building a fishing mini-game. I mean, it'll be fine if they have a few million subscribers and can seriously increase the size of their dev team, but as long as this is a budget MMO, please, no fishing.You aren't just arguing in favor of what you want. You are saying that what you don't want is a waste of development resources.
What...? Do you really expect me to fall all over myself making it inescapably clear that it's my opinion? Yes, that's what I think. That's why I said it. Other people may think something else. They're free to say so.
What are you trying to accomplish by calling me out like this?
You expressed your opinion. I expressed mine. Does the fact that mine disagreed with yours mean that you are now going to repeatedly call me out and misrepresent what I'm doing?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
You expressed your opinion. I expressed mine. Does the fact that mine disagreed with yours mean that you are now going to repeatedly call me out and misrepresent what I'm doing?
How did I misrepresent what you said? Maybe what you meant to say wasn't utterly dismissive of any position other than your own, but what you said was.
There is a difference between saying "Mini-games are a waste of development resources" and "I hope they don't use their time on mini-games."
The first is saying mini-games are of no value to anyone. That the resources required to make them don't justify their existence period.
The second is saying you don't personally want the developers to spend time on them.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
How did I misrepresent what you said?
You aren't... You are saying...
It is my opinion that Fishing is a waste of scarce resources.
If you really want to continue chastising me for my failure to soften my words adequately so that your ego wasn't bruised, feel free, but don't expect me to respect you for it and don't expect me to change.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
How did I misrepresent what you said?You aren't... You are...It is my opinion that Fishing is a waste of scarce resources.
If you really want to continue chastising me for my failure to soften my words adequately so that your ego wasn't bruised, feel free, but don't expect me to respect you for it and don't expect me to change.
Believe me, my ego is hardly suffering just because you don't feel mini-games are valid content. My intention isn't to get an apology or to force you to retract your statement. It is simply to state my opinion that you seem to think you are the only one this game is being built for. I'm not saying you're being a complete jerk or anything. It's just my opinion that you are. So don't get mad at me.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Well lets compare it to EVE.
In EVE the amount of PvE content is deliberately limited to encourage more people to engage in the PvP. Also many ships are deliberately designed to be much more effective in fleets with other players.
Ironically the majority of characters in EVE still grind PvE solo because:
- some people have work/lives and need to play in an environment where you will not be killed/ganked the instant you leave the keyboard for 5 minutes
- not everyone can make the commitment to a corp that runs fleets
- PvP is a resource sink so most players need a PvE alt to generate money to pay for their PvP characters exploits
HENCE I actually hope in Pathfinder there is a bit more balance with more of this sort of stuff than EVE (but less than traditional MMOs) so both styles of play can be catered for.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
... Can't understand why the got so upset at me over the whole affair.
'Won't understand' seems more correct.
We got upset with you because it is your fault. All the world's problems, when we look at them, can be attributed to you as agent provocateur in the employ of insidious foreign game developers. Your fingerprints are all over these attempts to divert precious development resources toward fluff as opposed to substance. We are onto you, Eldurian. You will not long evade the inquisition!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Even fishing. I love fishing in MMO's. But most fishing is just boring and bland. The dev's could put more effort into it, make a fishing mini game. Give us different types of bait, and tackle, fishing rods, etc.. Put more in than just pull up the rod when you get a bite. Remember it's the small things. I would love if they put in more detailed fishing in the game.
Some people like simple fishing because it is simple. Requiring complexity would only turn them off, might entertain the somewhat less casual gamers for a couple hours, and is likely to be ignored completely by the 'hardcore' crowd unless it gives a reward that kills faster. In UO fishing started out simple, just a 50% chance to catch something on a variable timer, but a range of superstitions about wearing certain hats or fishing specific spots (or even that eating fish was good for optimum skill gain) grew up around it; players read their own complexity into the system (or in the case of the skill gain optimization, a pseudoscience may have been intentionally created to drive a market). There was quite a bit of complexity added later, but the simple version still worked.
We're in the River Kingdoms, so it makes sense for fishing to be one way of gathering resources, but there's no need to turn PFO into People Fishing Online. A simple system will serve, perhaps to have options added later which those who enjoy the simplicity don't have to bother with.|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think if simple fishing for the sake of gathering fish as a resource is added, it should use nets, as nets are traditionally a simple method for gathering large quantities of fish.
Fishing rods on the other hand, are used for catching dinner, and trophies. That's where a mini-game should come in.
Maybe I'm just an old school gamer but I've spent hundreds or even thousands of hours on minigames that were a lot more complex than just occasionally clicking a bobbing lure until my brains start to dribble out my ears. Unfortunately the only entertaining mini-games in most MMO's tend to be part of seasonal events.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
What's not to like about fishing for people?I tried to become a fisher of men, but apparently my personality sometimes counts as "stinky bait", and it didn't work as well as I could have hoped.
Interesting. I was going for that too but the women got to me first. Broken field running but I got nailed before the goal line.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think a lot of people sort of misunderstood what I meant when I suggested this. I gave some examples like fishing, or possible other resource gathering.
What I was trying to say is that when people log in, it can't be all business all the time. An MMO by nature is a social environment, and that being said a lot of times people will log in and just chat, or walk around in circles, or not want to go kill monsters.
Especially since abilities are time based in this MMO, so I can't go off and slaughter the whole countryside and level up a bunch of times, there really do need to be other means of entertainment. Because after all, this is a GAME. Games are supposed to be fun. Large community games on this level should have multiple ways of having fun.
Some people here are worried that the developers possibly trying to make the game more fun in the overall sense might take away from them working the specific down to business aspects of game play. In doing this they're not looking at the large picture. Games, especially MMO's NEED other things for their players to do than just pursuing the main objectives all the time. And the more fun and variety there is for these light things for you to do when you're just socializing, the better the experience is.
And there are many people who are the atypical "power gamers" who are always business all the time, and I acknowledge this. However that is not the average in a community. These people want to get power as fast as possible, they want to click, get the fish, or click harvest the node, so they can accumulate as fast as possible, and don't care if it's boring or not. The majority of people who do these tasks do care if it's boring, so please keep that in mind.
So the more interesting the menial tasks in the game can be, and the more variety there is, the more people the game will attract. And you power gamers who want all the power as fast as possible will still get it faster than the other casual gamers who just want to have fun, just in this case, there will be more players overall in the community for you to lord your power over, because the game will be fun for the masses too.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
It really depends on what there is to do. I know many times when I log into MMO's and don't do anything, I literally run around town, and just don't want to go kill something. I chat with my friends or random people, look around the game, try to jump up to locations just to see if I can get there. It's always nice when you have options.
Not really sure what you're implying in that other players are our content in downtime as much as they are during "business" hours. I really hope that you don't just mean pvp. Since there will be some people who aren't that high powered who jump log in casually, and don't want to have to worry about being assassinated while they're chilling in town.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
What there is to do should include being both social and political. Fishing, dancing, and similar activities for me would be nice-to-have options and should also be subject to costs whether in stamina or fishing licenses. Hunting, however, seems more toward what we would find in a well-furnished minimum viable product since it yields meat and hides. Fishing could provide meat if cooking is developed as a useful craft. Settlement dances and festivals could temporarily improve a Development Index (improved popular morale) but we don't know if there is a practical benefit to temporary settlement buffs.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
That's not what I was talking about. You're picking at small points. My point is there should be things for people to do other than the main game. And those people who are logged in minding their own business just chatting in town should have stuff to do other than avoiding conflict.
Likewise people who play alot should have other options then hunting down new or casual players as fodder when they're not in the "grind" sort of mood. And yes I realize that you can't grind for xp since everything is time based, I was making an analogy.
The whole point is, it would be nice if there were other things to do in game besides wander the wilderness, fight monsters, fight players, harvest resources, craft stuff, build settlements, and train abilities.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I guess it depends on how you view your character.
If you see them as someone who primarily kills and loots then you are not going to be interested in joining a game of backgammon in the tavern.
If you see them as a person who occasionally kills and loots, then you are going to look for some other way to have them live their life. I would be as interested in becoming the local champion ferret breeder or pool champion, as I would in trying to kill 500 goblins.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
"Players as content" doesn't mean PvP most of the time. Sit around in town chatting or wander around the world looking for new things if you feel like it, but I feel like adding games to help you (the player) not get bored while your character has some downtime is of lower priority than implementing the iconic skills of the core classes, including pets and mounts.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
"Players as content" doesn't mean PvP most of the time. Sit around in town chatting or wander around the world looking for new things if you feel like it, but I feel like adding games to help you (the player) not get bored while your character has some downtime is of lower priority than implementing the iconic skills of the core classes, including pets and mounts.
I think most of these suggestions are based on the assumption that the base game itself is up to scratch, and that the 'Zen Games' aren't going to be adversely affecting the game of killing monsters and looting their steaming corpses.
They're nice to have, but not why we want to play PFO.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
What there is to do should include being both social and political. ... Settlement dances and festivals could temporarily improve a Development Index (improved popular morale) but we don't know if there is a practical benefit to temporary settlement buffs.
Outside of PvP, gathering people for both work and play should be encouraged. It appears the game will reward group work, in harvest camps. The game should also reward group play, like festivals or dances. Even a crowded, bustling tavern might give more benefits than one where there's only one customer.
I'd offer that having 20 people doing many different things is more impressive than 20 people doing the same thing. 20 people eating might just be a mess hall. 4 people eating, 6 people drinking, 3 guys playing dice, and 6 people singing along with a bard is a bustling tavern.
I can envision drinking mini-games that require characters to drink near simultaneously while their reactions spiral downwards. And karaoke sing-along scripts that require players to use mics.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
... I feel like adding games to help you (the player) not get bored while your character has some downtime is of lower priority than implementing the iconic skills of the core classes, including pets and mounts.
Agreed. I'd say that designing ways to keep players actively involved when doing group gathering is also important. People stay because of social connections, and group harvesting can be a social gathering. I played a Tale in the Desert years ago, and gathering large numbers of people for group digs (gathering materials that were hard to get solo) really pulled the community together. It highlighted leaders, let people be seen helping the group. It had lots of social benefits.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think some of these proposed elements would be fun. I had all sorts of fun in UO with a simple cup of dice, but I made my own game out of it, gathered players, and rewarded the winners with prizes.
Given the MVP model, I think it will be incumbent upon players to take a minimal number of provided "toys", and with a little creativity and effort, turn it into all sorts of other distractions from the usual adventure/battle/work.
Another alternative to the usual, the one close to my own heart, are events. Whether large scale, community events like a public market or more intimate, smaller scale player-made quests and story lines, there are dozens of ways we can create our own fun that has nothing to do with game mechanics.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I like the idea of a regular fair. Not only would it attract traders, but also Bards and other entertainers, dancers, pickpockets, those looking to make alliances and gather a party, and all sorts of other folk.
With luck, eventually it might be possible to have actual music being played as the entertainers play.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Straw poll: what do each of you mean and hear from the phrase "reward group play" (as used contrasting with "reward group work")?
Work is everything I do to improve my settlement or company. So "reward group work" includes things like getting more <quality wood> along with the <bulk wood> when a large group is working at a lumber camp (if it works that way). We'll work on settlement construction by signing up, and we don't have to be present - but what if there was a bonus for the more people that gathered at the construction site? That would also qualify as "reward group work".
Of course, if we're all standing around at the construction site, we want to be doing something. We'll either talk, or dice, or dance, or whatever They give us the tools to do. That's "reward group play". There doesn't always need to be an additional material benefit. It's just a question of whether we're having fun while we hang out.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I have avoided PvP in every other MMO I've played in. I don't want to spend my time fighting the characters of other players, I want to explore the world and develop my character.
This is just random musing about things that would be cool, not a serious "DO IT NOAW!!!" suggestion but wouldn't it be cool if there was a vow of pacifism path for monks/clerics/druids/paladins. It would come with abilities that you could use on people in combat that would force them to stop attacking targets that weren't dealing them damage or to flee, but a vow of pacifism player could never deal damage or use harmful effects on someone.
So for instance a vow of pacifism druid is out in the forest when they are attack by bandits. They use "Stay your hand" -30% attack speed AoE "Calming rain" +30 peace AoE. "Calming words" +30 peace on target "Lay down your blade" target with 60 or more peace is disarmed, "I am not your enemy" +20 peace and -50% damage from target with 50 or more peace. "This isn't what you want" +20 peace on target.
Bandit 1 is now at 100 peace and cannot attack you. They also can't attack anyone else unless they are dealt damage or receive a harmful effect from them.
You get the idea. A fairly powerful class that can only use positive effects and debuffs against violence.