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Oh and they easily qualify for viscous stomp so they get even more attacks of opportunity which could be a nice feat for them.
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I am always a little confused by people that say that monks are crap. truth be told the monk is one of my favorite classes. played one recently. i rolled stats reasonably well, so i was already quite kickass statwise, albeit with a good belt. Kit i also managed to find/afford included monks robes (but with speed bonus instead of unarmed damage) glove of arrow snaring (bought after first fight) originally started with RoP +2 and bracers of armor +2 cloak of res +2. my skills were a strange mix. but with my speed being 80, and monks getting insane bonuses to jump, i could potentially make 100' jumps.
Feats wise i went through the three crane style feats, dodge, combat reflexes, bodyguard, in harms way, imp trip, ki throw, stand still. these were all possible by tenth level using human bonus feat and four monk feats. i also went for the quingong archetype, and swapped slowfall for being able to cast barkskin.
i decided that my monk was going to try to be a damage soaker, rearranging the battlefield using ki throw, and protecting allies. He doesnt do much damage, just d10+4, but is not that good at hitting as i always fight defensively (for the crane style feats to kick in). what he is good at is not being hit, and tripping people and moving them away from the softer targets.. and even the adamantine full plate fighter is a softer target in our party. when totaled my AC is 34 and on the up. this is before the cleric has buffed my stats (if he ever gets round to it) and the crane style feats essentially let me ignore one successful melee attack a round and get a free AOO against attacker (and the gloves help against ranged). generally i position myself adjacent to the big hitters and trip, or throw enemies over edges etc.
He saved peoples lives on a number of occasions, by pulling enemies off them, or taking damage that would floor an ally.. he worked quite well, and is fun to play. my standard tactic was to stun, trip till they are down, then hit them with remaining flurry.. or trip and throw them so the hitters are flanking them (and i am adjacent to all three).
if they decided they want to eat a caster or the (ranged) rogue i tended to position myself on the enemy opposite my ally and throw them away from ally so they cant 5' to hit them again. this means they had to try to hit me (and usually fail), tumble round me (again, doesnt happen much as CMB is so high), try to move round me or away and attack, if i hit them with the AOO they are staying still thanks to the feat, and have to attack/miss me. if they withdraw they get to do sod all else, and you can bet with my speed 80 i could get to them next round. if they did get round me and get their single attack against my ally, i get an AOO to boost ally's AC by +4 as an aid another (my traits gave me +4 on aids instead of +2, and any of my AOOs get a +1 on attack) if they still hit, then i took the damage for them.
So yeah.. 'walls' dont have to be boring, and monks can be a valuable first/2nd row fighter. of course, i will still get swallowed whole at some point..
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Tripping monks remind me that monks do have a place, and that place is making life miserable for bipedal equipment based people.
One of my players plays a monk, he was surrounded by shield and axe wielding dwarven juju zombies at one point.
Thanks to flurry, a round or two later, they were all on their asses, with no shields, and no axes.
Its what they do.
Yeah, and it only looks impressive until you realise a raging barbarian could have chopped all those juju zombies into zombie chutney in the same space of time, and is just as effective against non-bipedal equipment based people.
but but but all the monk threads that are out there agree that as a 3/4 BAB class Monks can't possibly hit ANYTHING.
No they don't.
Read them.
I wrote half of them, and they don't say that.
They literally say ANYTHING.
No, they really literally don't say monk's can't hit anything. They actually say that monks struggle to hit anything compared to the full BAB combat classes against which they are held up.
hahaha thanks bro. This made my day! :)
I'm glad that made you happy, but I have to point out that he's not hitting them, he's using maneuvers. And he's having to use a maneuver master archetype, which means he can't flurry-of-blows at all, only flurry-of-maneuvers. His damage output is going to be pretty terrible, even after he has them on the ground - what does he do then? That's not an issue if your role in the party is setting up the real damage guys to dish the hurt, but if he gets solo with a foe he's got issues - especially if it's one his maneuvers don't work on.
Using archetypes of the monk to prove the monk is effective isn't really proving the monk is effective, it's proving the archetype can do what it's meant to. The maneuver master is good at maneuvers. The example one is OK...of course he'll never get the Greater maenuevers, because his intelligence is too low, whcih could hurt him later on.
BTW, RotRL Stone Giants only have a CMD of 30....
So, main to hit of +29 CMB, secondary at +24, roll above a 1 and then roll above a 5, down they go.
For example, a trip-built fighter can get +26 CMB, and do it with a reach weapon (so attacks of opportunity to make up for lack of flurry), and do a shed-load of damage on top.
But nah, above the 4th book Tripping Monks suck.
Actually the threshold is that tripping and other maneuvers start to fall off in effectiveness after 10th level - and that's not just for monks, it's for all characters. At least, that's what I'VE always read in the forums, and what I've experienced in gameplay, and what I confirmed when I crunched in the numbers.
It says so right in the forums.
No, it doesn't say anything of the sort, except in your posts.
Yeah, over the years I've seen monks work really well with heavies. Don't bother trying to do the most damage, really assist a fighter/barb/ranger/rogues. Bro-team it up. I think you really get it, and refuse to just go along with the monks are crap majority.
Honestly, I was trying to explain the importance of monk teamwork and tactics and it being far more important than system mastery, some just refuse to get it. HE DOESN'T HAVE FULL BAB, THE MONK IS CRAP.
Urgh. He doesn't need it.
While I get where you are coming from I have to point out that other full BAB classes can do maneuvers as well as the monk, and more besides. It's not the maneuvers the monk has problems with, it's the more besides maneuvers. Even then, the core monk is not so hot at maneuvers - he gets the base Improved ones as bonus feats, but has to meet the criteria for the Greater maneuvers, which is harder for him to do with his MAD requirements. The other classes get to add their mojo to hit to maneuvers, but the monk has no mojo to hit. So they will always end up better at them than the base monk, if they make the effort. Maneuver master rectifies this imbalance somewhat, but at the cost of the monk's non-maneuver offensive ability.
For example, if I build a trip-based fighter he can trip pretty much as well as the maneuver master monk. But he can also hit targets more accurately and do more damage if the target can't be tripped. That's the real issue with the monk, not that he cannot do stuff sometimes, but that he has no fall back for when that stuff he does does not work.
I agree, if you teamwork it the monk can contribute a lot in some circumstances. That's the point - it's only in certain circumstances. Monks are hard to make work well across the board without excessive system mastery, and even then to only manage to be moderately good where others may be awesome.
And for the record, I'm no "hater" - I love the monk, they are my favourite class, period, at least thematically. My comments are born of long personal experience of playing them and constantly struggling to keep up with the rest of the party.
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Why are you feeding the troll?
Yeah, I should know better.
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Advantages of trip fighter over monk
*Reach weapon potential
*More damage, more consistantly
*Lore Warden is the highest CMB you're getting in the game
*Probably better AC
Advantage of trip monks over fighters:
*Don't die to saving throws nearly as often (all good saves). Also Encouragement for high wisdom (also get it on AC)
*Ki throw lets you get free repositions (fighters can do this as well, but without a ki pool are limited to medium creatures)
*Vicious Stomp lets you have 2 AOOs on a falling creature once you have Combat Reflexes.
*Movement (which may not seem amazing, but getting into good position can be pretty critical, especially in the early rounds of combat).
Both will have CMBs around / about the same level.
Truthfully for a tripping build I actually like Monk / Fighter multis better than either individually; you can take Monk to get some better saves and flurry of manuever; and Lore Warden to qualify for Duelist Gloves eventually and get the "awesome Lore Warden Bonus". My current primary in PFS is a Tengu Lore Warden / Manuever Master, and focuses on both trips and grapple; most people consider him pretty amazing, and he's lots of fun to play :).
A specialist monk, or especially a specialist Monk/Fighter, would have 0 trouble tripping a DC 30.
Let's go with a basic build for a Dwarf monk, 15 points, Manuever Master
Str: 16 (20, +2 level up, +2 item)
Int: 7
Wis: 16 (18, +2 item)
Dex: 14 (16, +2 item)
Con: 15
Chr: 5Fury's Fall, Improved Trip, Greater Trip are relevant feats (probably combat reflexes and vicious stomp to get 2 AOOs as they fall, and Snake Style feat line so that if an opponent attempts to attack from prone and misses they provoke more AOOs)
So base: +9 (BAB for CMB is = my level)
+3 (Dex, Fury's Fall)
+4 (Wis, Swift action for manuever master)
+4 (Improved/Greater Improved Trip)
+2 (Red Ioun Stone, slotted into Wayfinder gives +2 to all CMB)
+1 (Amulet of Mighty Fist)
+5 (Strength)
-5 (Flurry of Manuevers for 2 additional manuevers possible)
+1 (cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone)
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either +29/+24 or +24/+24/+24/+19 on trips.+2 Str / Dex belt (10000)
+2 Wis Headband (4000)
Red ioun stone + Wayfinder (5250)
Amulet of mighty fist +1 (4000)
Cracked Green Ioun Stone (4000)
Everything else dedicated to AC and SavesAnd that's without trying terribly hard.
Your build is illegal. You do not have Combat Expertise, your Intelligence is not 13+, you cannot have Greater Trip. If you change that, it looks like it's a nice one trick pony. :)
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Actually it's not; Manuever Master Monk has no need for Combat Expertise OR 13 Intelligence; at 1st level they can take Improved Trip without meeting the prerequisite; at 6th level they can take Greater Trip without meeting the prerequisite.
So a buildup:
1) Improved Trip, Improved Grapple
2) Combat Reflexes
3) Fury's Fall
5) Ki THrow
6) Greater Trip
7) Vicious Stomp
9) Binding Throw
So, I can Blind you (I'll take the AOO), trip you, disarm you (you're blind), reposition you (Ki Throw), take 2 Attacks of Opportunity (Vicious Stomp / Greater Trip), then grapple you (Binding Throw lets you do it without taking an action)... all in one round with a very solid chance of doing all of them. It's a 3-or-4 trick pony, with both dwarf and monk bonuses for saving throw and a high Con so I won't fall over. That's more tricks than the average front-line fighter comes with :).
Ah! I hadn't noticed the maneuver master. That's what I get for posting so early in the morning I guess. :P
Thanks for clearing that up Thalin. I like it.
Viscious stomp helps if there are other people tripping as well. So if the monks were npcs then fighting multiple of them with viscious stomp gets worse if they are adjacent. Also saves are more important on npcs as they are more likely to face spellcasters.
Oh and they easily qualify for viscous stomp so they get even more attacks of opportunity which could be a nice feat for them.Viscous Stomp is particularly effective against Rouges.
Thank you. Thank you for this.
Yeah, over the years I've seen monks work really well with heavies. Don't bother trying to do the most damage, really assist a fighter/barb/ranger/rogues. Bro-team it up. I think you really get it, and refuse to just go along with the monks are crap majority.
Honestly, I was trying to explain the importance of monk teamwork and tactics and it being far more important than system mastery, some just refuse to get it. HE DOESN'T HAVE FULL BAB, THE MONK IS CRAP.
I'm not sure if we want to turn this into another monk hate thread... That didn't seem like the topic, unless I missed something. That said, Monk's have full BAB TWF when flurrying, and full BAB when using a BAB. There are other classes that don't get nearly as much hate as the monk that have 3/4 BAB.
Of course, this monk isn't tripping any better than any other PC. He does however have the redirection class feature(Limited use), and unbalancing counter. I think its pretty cool, but its limited. How many times is he using it per day? Once per round, and limited by class level has to run out sometime!
Monks problems are not based in their 3/4 BAB. They are based in the fact Amulet of mighty fist is incredibly expensive compared to magical weapons, the fact they are horribly MAD, and the fact they lose a huge chunk of their class fighting feature if they have to move and fight.