Alchemical "Weapon" Question

[JacksonCross]

So basically two quick questions regarding alchemical weapons.

One: Do alchemical "weapons" count as "weapons" for the purpose of drawing them? So if I have a BAB of +1 can I draw an acid flask as a free action(combined with a regular move) like other weapons?

Two: I can make a full attack with alchemical weapons if I start with them in my hands already, correct?

[Tortilla]

1. Good question. I found nothing in the Core Rulebook addressing whether they are treated as a weapon in that regard or not, other than to say that if it is in your pack then you have to search for it as a retrieval action (move equivalent I believe).

A thing to consider is that wearing a sword, whether sheathed through your belt, hanging therefrom, or strapped over your shoulder, is designed so it can be drawn conveniently. The hilt sticks out where it can be grasped and drawn quickly. On the other hand, a small vial is usually stored in a belt pouch or in the backpack somewhere. It doesn't have a convenient handle (unless your glass blower is really good), nor a sleekly designed holding mechanism from which to draw.

You could pretty easily draw a sword while running towards your enemy (assuming the minimal training with it), but reaching into your pocket and pulling your cell phone out of your pants to throw it at someone while jogging would either be extremely difficult or just throw off your run dramatically.

Ultimately, if I were your GM, I would rule that vials stored in a pouch would require a move action to draw, though not as a weapon draw (so not free during a move). However, if you were placing them strategically on your body, maybe purchasing some modified clothing with extra pockets designed for this, I don't see why they would be any more difficult to draw than shuriken (drawn as ammunition; free action).

Perhaps I am wrong on this, it does say that "A splash weapon is a ranged weapon..." which could imply that the vial is ammunition to be drawn freely as long as it is conveniently placed (like a pouch, not a backpack). I would like feedback on these ideas if any other GMs have input.

2. Yes, if they are already in your hands, then they should follow the normal full attack rules. Referencing the Two Weapon Fighting section of the Combat chapter, Thrown weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. I would assume they are treated as light weapons.

[JacksonCross]

Tortilla wrote:

However, if you were placing them strategically on your body, maybe purchasing some modified clothing with extra pockets designed for this, I don't see why they would be any more difficult to draw than shuriken (drawn as ammunition; free action).

Yeah I use bandoliers for my alchemical weapons. (you can wear a max of two for a total of 18 slots that hold "objects the size of a flask or small dagger")

[Mortalis]

2 bandoliers give 16 slots (8 each).

[JacksonCross]

Mortalis wrote:

2 bandoliers give 16 slots (8 each).

Ops my bad, Yeah I meant 16.

[Hobbun]

JacksonCross wrote:

Tortilla wrote:

However, if you were placing them strategically on your body, maybe purchasing some modified clothing with extra pockets designed for this, I don't see why they would be any more difficult to draw than shuriken (drawn as ammunition; free action).

Yeah I use bandoliers for my alchemical weapons. (you can wear a max of two for a total of 18 slots that hold "objects the size of a flask or small dagger")

What exactly is the benefit of the bandolier?

With the bandolier, it says you use the "retrieve a stored item" action which is a move action.

But how would that be different than putting the flasks in a pouch, or in your backpack, and retrieving them? By RAW, it is still apparently a move action by the "Manipulate an item" rule no matter where you store them.

Or is there a rule I am missing?

[The Todd]

Bandolier is the same action as pack.

Throwing a splash weapon is its own standard action. No way around it that I know.

Not all alchemical items are splash weapons, ie tanglefoot bags are not.

Splash Weapons say they are splash weapons in Ultimate Equipment.

[Hobbun]

The Todd wrote:

Bandolier is the same action as pack.

Then there really is no reason for me to buy two bandoliers, which is what I was thinking of doing.

I am an Alchemist as well, and saw the bandolier in the UE. But if there is no difference than a backpack, then I see no reason to spend the money, even if they are pitifully cheap.

This is for a PFS character, btw.

[Pupsocket]

The Todd wrote:

Throwing a splash weapon is its own standard action. No way around it that I know.

I don't think it is.

Quote:

Throw Splash Weapon

A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on
impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target
and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash
weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target.
Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency,
so you don’t take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit
deals direct hit damage to the target,

Nothing in there about it being a specific standard action. It's not on the action table as a seperate kind of standard action either. It's just an attack.

Now, as for drawing flasks:

Quote:

Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat...requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.

First of all, The "drawing a weapon" action is inclusive. Secondly, flasks are constantly referenced as thrown weapons. So they can be drawn with the "draw a weapon" action.

The Bandolier is poorly written. If your GM can't use a bit of common sense, you might have to resort to semantics. You can use the "retrieve a stored item" action" - well thank you for the option, but I'd rather use the totally legit "draw a weapon" action to draw this weapon that's easily accessible right here, not stored in a pack.

[blackbloodtroll]

There is some confusion as to why they made this new "Alchemical Weapon" distinction.

Before, it was just Alchemical items, and some could be used as a splash weapon(like Acid).

Then, Ultimate Equipment came, and made a new category.

"Alchemical Weapons".

What does this mean though? What changed?

Can they be chosen for weapon specific feats?

Is Weapon Focus(Pellet Grenade) a viable feat?

Are there "Alchemical Weapons" belonging to a Fighter Weapon group?

Can they be used with feats and abilities that require a weapon to utilize?

[Hobbun]

Pupsocket wrote:

Now, as for drawing flasks:

Quote:

Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat...requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.

First of all, The "drawing a weapon" action is inclusive. Secondly, flasks are constantly referenced as thrown weapons. So they can be drawn with the "draw a weapon" action.

The irony of the rule you quoted in "drawing a weapon" is a move action, but then so is the "retrieve a stored item" action. The quote makes it sound like they are different, but in the end, they are both move actions.

The only difference I could see is the "drawing a weapon" action allows you to move and draw a weapon as part of your move action if you have the +1 BAB, where a stored item (like in a backpack) is a move action no matter what.

In this case, then the Bandolier would make sense, as the flasks would be readily reachable and I could see you being able to pull one out while you move. And there would be some differentiation mechanically in keeping flasks in your Bandolier than your backpack.

Pupsocket wrote:

The Bandolier is poorly written. If your GM can't use a bit of common sense, you might have to resort to semantics. You can use the "retrieve a stored item" action" - well thank you for the option, but I'd rather use the totally legit "draw a weapon" action to draw this weapon that's easily accessible right here, not stored in a pack.

I think you and I are talking about the same thing here, the problem is the bandolier is written particularly by using "retrieve a stored item", not like "drawing a weapon", so I do think it's deliberate and not 'poorly written', or at least not poorly written as in mistake.

But I would agree with you on how you are ruling it. Otherwise there is just no point, mechanically, for the Bandolier.

[Kazaan]

PRD wrote:

Bandolier: This leather belt is worn over one shoulder and runs diagonally across the chest and back. It has small loops or pouches for holding eight objects the size of a flask or small dagger. You can use the "retrieve a stored item" action to take an item from a bandolier. You can wear up to two bandoliers at the same time (any more than this and they get in each other's way and restrict your movement).

I'd say the "take an item" clause is referring to taking non-weapons from the bandolier (such as a healing potion) in the same way one would retrieve one from a belt pouch or backpack, just that it's never going to be "buried" in your backpack and take more than a Move. But, when retrieving a dagger, throwing weapon, or similar item, it would still fall under "Draw a Weapon". I'd also presume that flasks that are intended to be thrown as weapons are designed with that in mind and either are made elongated to give a good hand-hold or they have an separate handle attached to the flask, similar to a German Stick Grenade. So, in summary, the "retrieve a stored item" action is used to explain that taking a non-weapon item from a bandolier is the same as retrieving one from your backpack or belt pouch and the bandolier just keeps all such items "on top" for easy retrieval, while actual weapons are still drawn as would normally be expected.

[The Todd]

Pupsocket wrote:

The Todd wrote:

Throwing a splash weapon is its own standard action. No way around it that I know.

I don't think it is.

Quote:

Throw Splash Weapon

A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on
impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target
and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash
weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target.
Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency,
so you don’t take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit
deals direct hit damage to the target,

Nothing in there about it being a specific standard action. It's not on the action table as a seperate kind of standard action either. It's just an attack.

Now, as for drawing flasks:

Quote:

Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat...requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.

First of all, The "drawing a weapon" action is inclusive. Secondly, flasks are constantly referenced as thrown weapons. So they can be drawn with the "draw a weapon" action

The Bandolier is poorly written. If your GM can't use a bit of common sense, you might have to resort to semantics. You can use the "retrieve a stored item" action" - well thank you for the option, but I'd rather use the totally legit "draw a weapon" action to draw this weapon that's easily accessible right here, not stored in a pack.

It's in the table. Prepare to throw splash weapon is a full round rd action. Huh,

Sorry for the double post. Phone problems.

[graystone]

Look here:http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oil s-other-substances#TOC-Oil-Lamp

"Use the rules for alchemist's fire, except that it takes a full-round action to prepare a flask with a fuse" So alchemical "weapons" count as normal weapons and use normal weapon rules, but things like molotov cocktails require that full round action to get ready (they STILL use the normal weapon rules + splash weapon rule once prepared).

[The Todd]

graystone wrote:

Look here:http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oil s-other-substances#TOC-Oil-Lamp

"Use the rules for alchemist's fire, except that it takes a full-round action to prepare a flask with a fuse" So alchemical "weapons" count as normal weapons and use normal weapon rules, but things like molotov cocktails require that full round action to get ready (they STILL use the normal weapon rules + splash weapon rule once prepared).

I've been playing that wrong for awhile. Thanks for the link.