Orfamay. How many math or physics equations have you derived from scratch?
Do you have the slightest idea how much "simple arithmetic" is involved in higher math?Almost none.
Higher mathematics is about the structure of mathematical objects, not about rote computations. There are entire algebra textbooks that use no numbers higher than 3, except for page numbers.
Check out this page for an example of how little arithmetic you need to do higher math.
Thousands. Hundreds of thousands, perhaps. Three published textbooks. How many passes has Tom Brady thrown, in practice or in a game, since he started playing football as a child?
Not that that's really a relevant question. Even if I were a professional donut taster, the content of the algebra homework I linked to remains what it is. And there's very little arithmetic in it. If you can find a single published mathematics paper where the fact that 7*8=56 is actually needed to derive a formula in it, I'll be quite surprised.
Orfamay, you are confusing "7*8=56" with the concept of using "basic math skills."
I have a degree in physics. All the way up to doing tensor analysis every equation I ever worked with or derived involved simple addition, multiplication, exponentials, division and/or subtraction.
"E=mc^2" is the most famous equation in the history of the world. It demonstrates three "basic math" attributes:
Equivalence
Multiplication
Exponents
Most equations also include addition, subtraction or division. For example the quadratic equation includes almost every basic math function.
If you think you can solve higher math problems while not being able to do "basic math" you are insane.
Orfamay, you are confusing "7*8=56" with the concept of using "basic math skills."
Well, I and every educational professional on the planet, perhaps. It must suck being the only soldier in your battalion who's marking on the proper foot.
Equivalence, specifically, is in no sense a "basic math skill"; if it were, it wouldn't be necessary to spend two weeks looking at in abstract algebra class.
Ask a fifth grader what "equivalence" is and you'll get a blank look. Ask them how much 7*8 is and they'll probably roll their eyes and give you answer (with a whole bunch of unexamined assumptions, like what base you're working in, what field you're working in, and so forth).
If you think you can solve higher math problems while not being able to do "basic math" you are insane.
Re-read the homework problems, then. Show me a single element of "basic math" in that paper that would be accessible to a bright eleven year old.
In essence, the phrase "basic math skills" has a rather specific meaning.
Well, for min-max reasons, I'm playing a Barbarian with the following stats:
Str 20
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 8I've been playing nothing but wizards for the past several years, so I thought this might be a nice change of pace. Now, I suppose I should just accept that I have gimped myself for all out of combat purposes, but even so, does anyone have suggestions for how to effectively roleplay such a character? Right now, I'm more or less acting like Thog from Order of the Stick.
Does this seem about right? Is an 8 Int and Cha that huge a leap from 10 Int and Cha that I have a speech impediment and can't figure out the simplest problems?
Now let's say I HAVE to roleplay him as an idiot; anyone have suggestions on how I can use my dumb as a rock barbarian as a medium to share clever ideas that I, the player, have thought of?
8 Charisma and 8 Intelligence? Only one truly great example comes to mind...
*ahem*
JAYNE... the man they call JAYNE...
That's right, the Hero of Canton. Classic lower than average Intelligence and Charisma martial type.
Orfamay, you are confusing "7*8=56" with the concept of using "basic math skills."Well, I and every educational professional on the planet, perhaps. It must suck being the only soldier in your battalion who's marking on the proper foot.
Equivalence, specifically, is in no sense a "basic math skill"; if it were, it wouldn't be necessary to spend two weeks looking at in abstract algebra class.
Ask a fifth grader what "equivalence" is and you'll get a blank look. Ask them how much 7*8 is and they'll probably roll their eyes and give you answer (with a whole bunch of unexamined assumptions, like what base you're working in, what field you're working in, and so forth).
If you think you can solve higher math problems while not being able to do "basic math" you are insane.Re-read the homework problems, then. Show me a single element of "basic math" in that paper that would be accessible to a bright eleven year old.
In essence, the phrase "basic math skills" has a rather specific meaning.
Yeah, it means "add, subtract, multiply, divide, etc."
You know, the stuff you do when you're solving equations.
8 Charisma and 8 Intelligence? Only one truly great example comes to mind...
*ahem*
JAYNE... the man they call JAYNE...
That's right, the Hero of Canton. Classic lower than average Intelligence and Charisma martial type.
No. He is annoying but he has a strong personality and thinks well of himself. He’s also rather intimidating, and not ugly at all. Sure, he is hardly a natural leader, but so?
No. He is annoying but he has a strong personality and thinks well of himself. He’s also rather intimidating, and not ugly at all. Sure, he is hardly a natural leader, but so?8 Charisma and 8 Intelligence? Only one truly great example comes to mind...
*ahem*
JAYNE... the man they call JAYNE...
That's right, the Hero of Canton. Classic lower than average Intelligence and Charisma martial type.
I can't tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing.
Jayne isn't stupid but he's clearly of below average intelligence and education as evidenced by too many examples to count. Too, he doesn't inspire trust, has horrible manners and a penchant for saying incredibly inappropriate things that offend or divide. He has a strong personality and what some might call 'low cunning' but I would attribute that to Wisdom rather than Intelligence - and looks have absolutely nothing to do with Charisma.
One of the biggest problems with mental ability scores is that they represent seriously abstract aggregates, just like how in real life, people talk about someone's "intelligence" as if it was some kind of linear value when its obviously (if you really think about it with some intelligence) a vague concept - just look at an idiot-savant and the idea of generic intelligence falls apart. Whatever the specifics, its well known that Einstein wasn't recognized for exceptional conventional intelligence as a child, or in his first career as a clerk. Einstein's brilliance was in taking concepts and ideas that other very intelligent people took for granted, and seeing around them to a more profound truth. Almost sounds more like wisdom.
If you start from the understanding that a mental stat is an aggregate of a lot of different things, you can play a low stat in many different ways as long as there is a handicap somewhere in there. You could play a low intelligence character as normal or even seemingly above-average, but with a stunning 'hidden' ignorance or a strange lack of functionality in some way that when it shows up, really shows up.
Someone on the forum recently told me that a 7 CHA character would be refused service and have garbage thrown at them, and all I could think was 'so... take 2 points in diplomacy to avoid unpleasant garbage-throwing then?'
Someone on the forum recently told me that a 7 CHA character would be refused service and have garbage thrown at them, and all I could think was 'so... take 2 points in diplomacy to avoid unpleasant garbage-throwing then?'
I wouldn't go that far. A 5 CHA perhaps, but I'm pretty sure I deal with 7 CHA people every day.
Though not on these boards, of course ;)
No. He is annoying but he has a strong personality and thinks well of himself. He’s also rather intimidating, and not ugly at all. Sure, he is hardly a natural leader, but so?8 Charisma and 8 Intelligence? Only one truly great example comes to mind...
*ahem*
JAYNE... the man they call JAYNE...
That's right, the Hero of Canton. Classic lower than average Intelligence and Charisma martial type.
I can't tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing.
Jayne isn't stupid but he's clearly of below average intelligence and education as evidenced by too many examples to count. Too, he doesn't inspire trust, has horrible manners and a penchant for saying incredibly inappropriate things that offend or divide. He has a strong personality and what some might call 'low cunning' but I would attribute that to Wisdom rather than Intelligence - and looks have absolutely nothing to do with Charisma.
Jayne is about average IQ, on a ship full of well above average types.
As far as looks : “Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.”
Again, on a ship full of high CHA types he is low, but he has a strong personality and a decent appearance. True, no “personal magnetism, ability to lead”. That just makes him average.
Yep. Have you ever worked with average people or even a few below average folks?
Does Cobb have a stong personality? Yes- very much so. Is he decent looking? Yep. Handsome by some. On both of those he scores well above average. He stands out in a group, even THAT group. No leadership, true. I could argue he's a 11 or 12. The guy you don't notice or care about is the 8.
IQ wise, again, he's dull inc comparison
"Although he often appeared to be somewhat stupid, he had his own peculiar wit. He had played successful jokes on the more intellectual Simon Tam (for instance, tricking Simon, who harbored an excessive fear of the vacuum of space, into putting on a spacesuit to board a pressurized ship[2]). "
...you're seriously, seriously trying to argue that Jayne "I got man parts!!!" Cobb is an example of average Charismatic-ness and Intelligence, who is only made to seem dull by the geniuses surrounding him?Jayne is about average IQ, on a ship full of well above average types.
As far as looks : “Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.”
Again, on a ship full of high CHA types he is low, but he has a strong personality and a decent appearance. True, no “personal magnetism, ability to lead”. That just makes him average.
Heh - I could literally list dozens of examples for both intelligence (Serenity - he leaps out of his chair in fear when Simon says the words that switched off River) and charisma ('little Kaylee here just wishes you was a gynocologist') where he is most definitely shown to be below average. Sure, the other characters benefit from some nice writing from time to time but its a lot more realistic to presume that Jayne is below average then that everyone else is both brilliant ('explain it to me in Captain Dummy talk') and charming('besides, everyone else on board is either married, a professional or related to me so you're like literally the only girl in the world').
Jaynes uneducated, easily fooled, uncouth, unreliable, motivated by self-interest and doesn't play well with others. I figure an 8 INT and an 8 CHA sounds just about right.
I recall an article in an RPG I read a long time ago about how an Intelligence score should mean different things for a PC and an NPC.
Essentially, for the same reason that a player with an average intelligence can hardly be expected to effectively roleplay a character with a genius level intelligence, it is also difficult for people to convincingly play people who are more stupid than they are. Otherwise the Wizard with the intelligence of 24 should be able to figure everything out with little or no effort.
While this may be a reasonable guide for the GM to roleplay NPCs, for players they should look at the game effects of the score to understand what the meaning of it is. In Pathfinder, a high INT means an ability to learn things faster and remember them more effectively. It also, in the case of arcane casters, indicates an ability to understand cryptic non-rational concepts and systems, such as arcane magic.
If you (as a GM) throw a puzzle or a mystery at the party you want everyone to be able to participate in solving it. You definitely don't want to be telling specific players that their INT is too low and they should just sit that part of the session out. And if there is an interesting puzzle in the game you don't want to reduce it to some intelligence rolls.
So in this cast a character with a low INT would probably be forgetful, and doesn't pick up on things very quickly. But he could still figure out things and come up with plans based on his experience. Since your character has a high WIS though he will be quite perceptive and he won't be easy to trick or fool. His low CHA would make him socially awkward with a tendency to irritate people, but his high WIS means that he would be aware of this and would probably try to avoid situations that depended on his social skills, which might come off as him being laconic or shy.
Peet
Charisma does not equal beauty.
The Hag has high charisma, but can hardly be called beautiful.
In fact, a rather ugly human, can be intimidating, and acute social skills.
In the reverse, a rather attractive human can be coarse, and completely lacking in social skills.
“Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.”
Am Barbarian, Am not always remember to bathe.
No, that's just plain wrong. You don't need to be a "guy you don't notice or care about" to justify a low CHA score. In fact, a low CHA score can make you "stand out" as much or more than a high one. The loud, obnoxious guy who hasn't bothered to wash in a few days, who scratches himself in inappropriate places, picks his nose and makes racist commentary until he gets thrown out of establishments for being a boor is going to attract a lot of attention, precisely because of the non-charasmatic things about him.That's the key thing. You're trying to wag your finger and tell people the "right way" to play their stat, but Pathfinder itself contradicts you. A human has a 8 CHA? Sure, that could be because they're a "guy you don't notice or care about". That's one way to play it. But you could also take a page from the Tiefling's book and flavor it that you're plenty opinionated, but instead you have horrible facial scars that make your visage "inherently strange and unnerving". And that'd be just as valid.
What counts is the overall effect when you cram all...
True. “Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.” So, it is possible that someone with a 8 CHA has one of those above average and the rest way below average. But it needs to come out to be a 8 , average. Most folks want it both ways. They want to play a guy with a CHA of 7, which is one in a million (as far as humans go) in Golarion. And have him be a cool loner type, maybe rude, with a scary scar (that the chicks dig, of course) and still be able to have a cool personality. Nope.
It's best to assume that someone with a 8 has a 8 in personality, 8 in personal magnetism, 8 in ability to lead, and 8 in appearance. Not a 14 in one and 5's in the rest.
Now sure, oen can argue about Jayne. But I have seen Batman put forth as all eight alignments.
Does Jayne have a strong personality? Yep! Is he good Looking? Yes ( my SO sez he is very handsome if you like the big strong type). So, in order to have a overall 8, he'd have to have a black hole in personal magnetism and ability to lead. And in fact he could be an OK leader of mooks.
"Unlikeable" doesn't mean "Low Charisma" in fact it often means the opposite. That big scary Biker dude has loads of Charisma. Sure, he put no ranks in Diplomacy , and loaded up on Intimidate. But Cha is the ability to lie, the barter, and to scare. Scary people are charismatic.
If you (as a GM) throw a puzzle or a mystery at the party you want everyone to be able to participate in solving it. You definitely don't want to be telling specific players that their INT is too low and they should just sit that part of the session out. And if there is an interesting puzzle in the game you don't want to reduce it to some intelligence rolls.
I, as a GM, sometimes do what you have written, but not so "hard".
-> I let the player - which have low mental-stats - puzzle, too. And when he to unravel the mystery, I let his PC give the other PC´s some hints or a told them a part of the mystery.-> If nobody could unravel the mystery I give them a DC and give them some hints or a part of the mystery.
Since your character has a high WIS though he will be quite perceptive and he won't be easy to trick or fool. His low CHA would make him socially awkward with a tendency to irritate people, but his high WIS means that he would be aware of this and would probably try to avoid situations that depended on his social skills, which might come off as him being laconic or shy.
This is why I (would) take more than one mental-stat for the IQ.
Things my INT 8 orc did that were, well INT 8
-Seeing all the things in a room were bolted to the floor, wondered why?, and walked into a reverse gravity trap
-Kidnapped a prostitute because she said "I like you" later party paladin said "she likes your money"
-Terrible at understanding the reason a person would lie. He had a wisdom stat, so he knew he was being lied to, but no idea why
-Broke down a door, cause it was a pull not a push
-Tried to headbutt a door, when his ax bounced off
-Nearly Killed a man for making children cry. A man had slapped a kid, and the orc slapped him (improved unarmed strike, while raging 1d4+6 lethal damage)
-Bought shiny chains, to wear as decoration. And yes, they actually became useful.
-Disliked tactics as "weak and elvish."
-Spoke Common poorly, Orc was his first language.
-I feel that's the point of playing your stats. Everybody knows what a 22STR grappler does in the game. It's much harder to show "I'm charming".
I don't object to charisma 8 characters being, a bit gruff. I object to INT 8 characters saying, I think we should have the party mage cast detect magic on the box, and then bring it to an expert craftsman in town. INT 8 says "Let's open the box!"
I don't object to charisma 8 characters being, a bit gruff. I object to INT 8 characters saying, I think we should have the party mage cast detect magic on the box, and then bring it to an expert craftsman in town. INT 8 says "Let's open the box!"
That'd be Wisdom, actually.
True. “Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.” So, it is possible that someone with a 8 CHA has one of those above average and the rest way below average. But it needs to come out to be a 8 , average. Most folks want it both ways. They want to play a guy with a CHA of 7, which is one in a million (as far as humans go) in Golarion. And have him be a cool loner type, maybe rude, with a scary scar (that the chicks dig, of course) and still be able to have a cool personality. Nope.Regardless of how many proclamations you make of what is or isn't allowed for "most folks" to do, you're still not addressing how the rulebooks themselves actually describe shifts of the magnitude you're talking about. Because no, 8 CHA necessitates neither a cross-the-board dump in all those four areas, nor an utterly abysmal dump in one. As I pointed out before, Paizo has the substance of a -2 CHA shift in the Tiefling section summed up as being the result of being "inherently strange and unnerving".
You can keep saying "nope" or protesting or objecting all you want, but that's how the -2 shift is described. So why, exactly, can't a player describe their own bought-down -2 shift in those same terms, or terms akin to them? Not that the character is ugly. Not that they have a nasty personality. But just that there's also something "inherently strange and unnerving" about them, and that's it.
Oh, and it's even better when you look at the Dwarves. You know how the CRB describes the nature of their -2 racial shift? I'll quote you the description. It says this: "+2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma: Dwarves are both tough and wise, but also a bit gruff."
A bit gruff.
A bit gruff.
That's the degree of shift we're talking about from an 8 CHA versus a 10 CHA. Regardless of how desperately you want to punish those dirty, unclean min-maxers, there's simply no obligation on...
Saying "he's a bit gruff" is fine. Saying "he's actually quite the charmer and the men idolize him and the woman swoon at his feet". Is. And I've seen people try to play an eight charisma like that before.
Saying "he's a bit gruff" is fine. Saying "he's actually quite the charmer and the men idolize him and the woman swoon at his feet". Is. And I've seen people try to play an eight charisma like that before.
Underline: I've seen people try to play an eight charisma like (...) "he's actually quite the charmer and the men idolize him and the woman swoon at his feet"
--> That´s my problem,too. There are many MinMaxer / Munchkins - but also good "normal" players, too - that take lesser mental stats and play their characters like a "Don Juan-Einstein-Budda" in one person[edit] ... but i have also seen some players playing their SC with high mental stats like an "idiot", too ;-)
[edit] ... but i have also seen some players playing their SC with high mental stats like an "idiot", too ;-)
It can be a lot of fun to have a really 'smart' character have a serious blind-spot. Like a SC character who has a memory like a library and can spot a deception a mile away... but just keeps getting suckered by a pretty face. And then endlessly, endlessly rationalizes it very well, while everyone else just shakes their head. There are tons and tons of people in everyday life and/or history who are brilliant... and then stupid. In the same way, a dunce can have his moments - and that can make for some great moments - but it does really have to be done in context. That one-in-a-million insight that leaves everyone else going '...WHAT did Mongo just say?! That's ... hmm.'
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Ever wonder why those people DEMANDING a 7 to 9 stat be played as an idiot don't also REQUIRE you to come up with amazing plans or truly moving speeches if your Int or Cha is higher than 11? This isn't really an attempt to role play it is an attempt to punish stat dumping.
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Ever wonder why those people DEMANDING a 7 to 9 stat be played as an idiot don't also REQUIRE you to come up with amazing plans or truly moving speeches if your Int or Cha is higher than 11? This isn't really an attempt to role play it is an attempt to punish stat dumping.
Was there ever any doubt ?
And more precisely to punish mental stat dumping, as they will show you numerous examples showing how those who dump physical stats are already punished enough by the RAW. Yet they will refuse the same leniency to those who dumped mental stats.
Talk about double standard.
Ever wonder why those people DEMANDING a 7 to 9 stat be played as an idiot don't also REQUIRE you to come up with amazing plans or truly moving speeches if your Int or Cha is higher than 11? This isn't really an attempt to role play it is an attempt to punish stat dumping.
Saying they shouldn't be played as a genius isn't the same as having to be an idiot. It just means they are, in fact below average rather than above average. Shouldn't have your cake and eat it too with dumped stats; a little gruff a bit absent minded, just a bit slow etcetera are perfectly fine slightly below average stats.
Ever wonder why those people DEMANDING a 7 to 9 stat be played as an idiot don't also REQUIRE you to come up with amazing plans or truly moving speeches if your Int or Cha is higher than 11? This isn't really an attempt to role play it is an attempt to punish stat dumping.
Was there ever any doubt ?
And more precisely to punish mental stat dumping, as they will show you numerous examples showing how those who dump physical stats are already punished enough by the RAW. Yet they will refuse the same leniency to those who dumped mental stats.
Talk about double standard.
So actually playing your stat as what it is is "being punished"? Not being able to make believe your seven intelligence is in fact a 17 intelligence is "being punished"?
Its impossible to do this with the physical stats, and the Numbers are ll there IS to them. The isn't a behavioral component. So you are comparing apples and oranges.
Saying they shouldn't be played as a genius isn't the same as having to be an idiot. It just means they are, in fact below average rather than above average. Shouldn't have your cake and eat it too with dumped stats; a little gruff a bit absent minded, just a bit slow etcetera are perfectly fine slightly below average stats.Ever wonder why those people DEMANDING a 7 to 9 stat be played as an idiot don't also REQUIRE you to come up with amazing plans or truly moving speeches if your Int or Cha is higher than 11? This isn't really an attempt to role play it is an attempt to punish stat dumping.
This wasn't aimed at you... but since you're bringing it up.
So actually playing your stat as what it is is "being punished"? Not being able to make believe your seven intelligence is in fact a 17 intelligence is "being punished"?
Let me ask you one simple question? Would you lower the Int score of the PC at your table when the player had an Int 7 but his character had an Int 17? He obviously can't role play a 17 Int... you can't fake smarts.
If you said "no" then aren't you being fairly hypocritical toward people doing the reverse and acting smarter than their PC stat?
He can TRY TO play it. Instead of trying specifically to play what it isn't. There is a quite significant difference.
This isn't about not "being able to" its about purposely trying to not take on the adverse parts of a below average stat.
You mean he can FAIL to play it. The only real functional difference here is intent. In one case someone intends to play the way you want him to in the other case he doesn't intend to play the way you want him to. BOTH fail at acting appropriately.
It's like you refuse to punish someone who commits a crime but insist on punishing someone who intends to commit a crime. The crime of course is not playing his character the way YOU want him to play it.
Can someone who's character has a low int believably be a genius?
Why not? An absent minded professor comes to mind. He is constantly forgetting facts but is brilliant in his field of expertise and can regale you endlessly on the cultural and mating habits of Orcs. Stat wise: Low Int but plenty of Knowledge (orcs) skill.
You guys do know it's just a game right?
You cannot perfectly recreate the aspects of the human psyche and all the different possible interactions between separate parts of their personalities. Unless you want to roll for which lobes of the brain have better stats thus controlling how your INT stat works, and thus deriving into more stats to play. Or, it turns into three different mental stat abilities or something... who knows?
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Let me ask you one simple question? Would you lower the Int score of the PC at your table when the player had an Int 7 but his character had an Int 17? He obviously can't role play a 17 Int... you can't fake smarts.
Actually...you totally can, at least in an RPG. You can ask other players for advice, get info from the GM with Knowledge checks which your character knows off the top of his head, plan things out in advance which your PC comes up with off the top of his head (I mean, even if you don't put in advance work you have way more time in real life to think things through than your character does in a combat round), and so on. All that allows for someone to play a character who's smarter than they are in a reasonably believable fashion. I've certainly done so and seen it done well by others, too.
If you said "no" then aren't you being fairly hypocritical toward people doing the reverse and acting smarter than their PC stat?
I require people to roleplay their stats. All of their stats. Or at least the mental ones, physical ones being pretty much covered by the rules. This seems a reasonable requirement to me.
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Jayne's hat adds +5 to Diplomacy checks.
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Yep. Have you ever worked with average people or even a few below average folks?
Does Cobb have a stong personality? Yes- very much so. Is he decent looking? Yep. Handsome by some. On both of those he scores well above average. He stands out in a group, even THAT group. No leadership, true. I could argue he's a 11 or 12. The guy you don't notice or care about is the 8.
IQ wise, again, he's dull inc comparison
"Although he often appeared to be somewhat stupid, he had his own peculiar wit. He had played successful jokes on the more intellectual Simon Tam (for instance, tricking Simon, who harbored an excessive fear of the vacuum of space, into putting on a spacesuit to board a pressurized ship[2]). "
Hell, in the pilot, Dobson assumes that Jayne is stupid...but he's proven wrong. Of the crew of the ship, Jayne is probably the least intelligent, but he could easily managed that with an INT of 10 or 11.
Charisma would be lower. He's rude and crude and a jerk...but at the same time he does managed to be a fairly likeable jerk. How many of you guys out there are a folk hero with a statue in the town square?
Can someone who's character has a low int believably be a genius?
Why not? An absent minded professor comes to mind. He is constantly forgetting facts but is brilliant in his field of expertise and can regale you endlessly on the cultural and mating habits of Orcs. Stat wise: Low Int but plenty of Knowledge (orcs) skill.
Then he isn't a genius, he is someone with a lower intelligence who has spent a ton of effort becoming knowledgeable in a specific field: acquired education and intelligence are not the same thing. Don't conflate the two.
Then he isn't a genius, he is someone with a lower intelligence who has spent a ton of effort becoming knowledgeable in a specific field: acquired education and intelligence are not the same thing. Don't conflate the two.Can someone who's character has a low int believably be a genius?
Why not? An absent minded professor comes to mind. He is constantly forgetting facts but is brilliant in his field of expertise and can regale you endlessly on the cultural and mating habits of Orcs. Stat wise: Low Int but plenty of Knowledge (orcs) skill.
No... IQ tests you largely on things you have learned. Educated people score much higher on these tests than people who have limited educational opportunities. Educated people use larger words and understand events better. Int is very much education related.
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Ever wonder why those people DEMANDING a 7 to 9 stat be played as an idiot don't also REQUIRE you to come up with amazing plans or truly moving speeches if your Int or Cha is higher than 11? This isn't really an attempt to role play it is an attempt to punish stat dumping.
Was there ever any doubt ?
And more precisely to punish mental stat dumping, as they will show you numerous examples showing how those who dump physical stats are already punished enough by the RAW. Yet they will refuse the same leniency to those who dumped mental stats.
Talk about double standard.
So actually playing your stat as what it is is "being punished"? Not being able to make believe your seven intelligence is in fact a 17 intelligence is "being punished"?
Its impossible to do this with the physical stats, and the Numbers are ll there IS to them. The isn't a behavioral component. So you are comparing apples and oranges.
I do not see how I am comparing apples and oranges by asking that both mental stats dumping and physical stats dumping should only suffer RAW crunch penalties.
He can TRY TO play it. Instead of trying specifically to play what it isn't. There is a quite significant difference.
Note that I am quite happy with an INT 17 player trying to play an INT 7 PC. What I strongly object to is other people (whether GM or players) telling him how he should play his PC and punishing him if he does not follow their whims.
This isn't about not "being able to" its about purposely trying to not take on the adverse parts of a below average stat.
I do not push in any way for people not taking on the RAW adverse parts of a below average stat (ie, less skills for INT, lower Will saves for WIS and so on). I push for other people not pushing additional non-RAW adverse parts on them.
Of course, if you have houserules in place that give additional penalties to low mental stats and that were shared with all players before the game begins, then I have no problem with that.
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Its impossible to do this with the physical stats, and the Numbers are ll there IS to them.
I do not agree with this. You can always make up new penalties based on what "makes sense" :
You should forbid the low CON PC from adventuring in any kind of dirty environment, including crowds, as he is extremely likely to catch a disease, or even just a flu that will take him out of the game for days.
The low STR PC should always be accompanied by a manservant to carry whatever he buys or collects and also to help him climb stairs. Obviously, he will not ever get into water as he cannot swim.
And the low DEX PC should be stumbling into whatever people he passes by as well as dropping right and left whatever he holds or tries to grab, even his spell components.
Wouldn't it be more realistic and consequently more fun for all people around the table ?
You guys do know it's just a game right?
Yes, that is correct. But some people only wants to play a game and other wants to play the game correct.
You cannot perfectly recreate the aspects of the human psyche and all the different possible interactions between separate parts of their personalities.
OK, there are more aspects as the intelligence or the three mental stats - there are Skills and Feats and Traits and so on, but, I think the mental stats are a good base to say if the charracter "has a high/low IQ".
If somebody wants to play a INT 7, CHA 7, WIS 7 barbarian, than I think he should play him like he have taken theese stats, too.
Let me ask you one simple question? Would you lower the Int score of the PC at your table when the player had an Int 7 but his character had an Int 17? He obviously can't role play a 17 Int... you can't fake smarts.
If you said "no" then aren't you being fairly hypocritical toward people doing the reverse and acting smarter than their PC stat?
No. I'd force the player to play his character smarter than he is, by spoon-feeding him information and suggestions.
That's the same way I handle low-skill players playing high-skill characters:
"It looks like there's a thunderstorm coming in. A bad one."
"I take shelter under the tall pine tree you mentioned."
"A lone tree in the middle of a field?"
"Yeah, pine trees are pretty waterproof."
"Yes, but Aragroin the Ranger knows that they also attract lightning."
"So?"
"So, if you hide under the tree, you might get hit by lightning."
"Oh. All right, how about I try to find a low-lying creek?"
"<sigh> Have you ever heard of flash floods?"
"What, a flood wearing a long trench coat and nothing else?"
The flip side of that is that a Green Beret player shouldn't give Zandalf the Mauve the cloistered wizard the detailed knowledge of forest survival.
That's not an issue with physical skills, because the player can't simply tell me what he does to pick the lock.
No... IQ tests you largely on things you have learned.
Actually, it doesn't. The tests are designed not to.
Educated people score much higher on these tests than people who have limited educational opportunities.
That's because education comes more easily to people with high IQ. That's actually the major research contribution of IQ theory. Intellilgence transfers; learned skill does not. (Example: if you have a high IQ, you will pick up chess quickly and you will also pick up checkers quickly. Being good at "IQ" makes you good at understanding the principles of both. If you do not have a high IQ, you can still learn to be a very good chess player, with sufficient effort. But that won't make you a good checkers player or even help you learn checkers.)
Int is indeed education related, but you're reversing cause and effect. Education does not cause intelligence. Intelligence causes education -- "smart" people learn more easily and hence acquire more "education" more quickly.
Some food for thought: Minsc from Baldur's Gate has all of his mental stats in the single digits (I spent all day yesterday replaying it). I'll admit when I ran into him in game I dumped Kivan, a far more optimized ranger in a heartbeat.
Wrong Orfamay
Where one minority group shows lower scores, the differences could be real. This could indicate a poorer educational system (differences in educational opportunities, poverty, neighborhoods, home life…)
In other words Education is DIRECTLY related to intelligence tests AND those who score poorer do so because of fewer educational opportunities.