| 15 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
Can an Alchemist with the Infusion Discovery make extracts with Personal range to affect others?
Please do not post here. I'm trying to get the rules team attention in order to consider this question for FAQ.
Thanks Mr. Rossi.
All right. I put here both links of the 2 questions I submit in order to hope for an official FAQ that can end all this conflicts and discussions.
Bump
Bump
Bumping again.
Official Rules Response
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qv1
Alchemist and infusions: Can I use the infusion discovery to create an infused extract of a personal-range formula (such as true strike), which someone else can drink?
Yes, you can. The design team may decide to close this loophole in the next printing of the Advanced Player's Guide.
Please don't. It's a very small and rather fun loophole. And, honestly the infusion discovery isnt used by many.
I agree with DrDeth. I don't see any reason to close this loophole. It doesn't make the Infusion discovery overpowering, it just makes it worthwhile.
The ability to use personal extracts on others can fall under the "extracts are different than potions". So I don't actually see it as a 'loophole'.
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Please don't. It's a very small and rather fun loophole. And, honestly the infusion discovery isnt used by many.
Not closing that loophole mean that they will have to close a lot of loopholes with personal spells that have no Saving Throw and Spell Resistance and have negative effects when used on other characters.
Polypurpose Panacea (sleep)+touch injection and I can coup de grace anything.
Polypurpose PanaceaSchool transmutation; Level alchemist 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components S
Range personal
Target you
Duration see below
Sleep: You enter a pleasant and restful sleep for at least 1 hour unless wakened. If you would normally begin sleeping at this time, when the panacea ends you continue sleeping normally.
Same thing with Skinsend and probably a few other spells.
I make you drink that stuff? I don't even need touch injection.
Sharing beneficial personal range spells can be acceptable, "sharing" those with negative effects without giving the target a ST or the use of his SR is unacceptable.
I've played an alchemist with infusion discovery and am currently DMing another. Getting those fighter types to waste an action drinking a "potion" is like getting blood from a turnip. They would rather full attack.
Not closing that loophole mean that they will have to close a lot of loopholes with personal spells that have no Saving Throw and Spell Resistance and have negative effects when used on other characters.
I would prefer that they add SR\save information to them over closing the 'loophole' of passing around personal spell Infusions.
With the other limitations of the class (like not qualifying for things that require the ability to cast 'spells'), I think removing this would remove one of the more potent and unique abilities of the class.
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Not closing that loophole mean that they will have to close a lot of loopholes with personal spells that have no Saving Throw and Spell Resistance and have negative effects when used on other characters.I would prefer that they add SR\save information to them over closing the 'loophole' of passing around personal spell Infusions.
With the other limitations of the class (like not qualifying for things that require the ability to cast 'spells'), I think removing this would remove one of the more potent and unique abilities of the class.
I generally agree, even with some doubt about a few spells, but think the kind of work that will require:
checking every existing spell and correcting them against correcting a single ability.Maybe the best solution would be to add a line to personal range spells:
"all the spell with a range of personal or a target of you affect only willing targets."
I've played an alchemist with infusion discovery and am currently DMing another. Getting those fighter types to waste an action drinking a "potion" is like getting blood from a turnip. They would rather full attack.
Seeing how most buff last at least 1 minute/level, I fail to see why they aren't buffing before the battle start.
thejeff's solution might work as well. Add something like this into the Infusion discovery description:
"When the alchemist creates an extract, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power. The extract created now persists even after the alchemist sets it down. As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist’s daily extract slots. An infused extract can be imbibed by a non-alchemist to gain its effects. Infused extracts with a range of 'Personal' only affect willing targets."
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I've played an alchemist with infusion discovery and am currently DMing another. Getting those fighter types to waste an action drinking a "potion" is like getting blood from a turnip. They would rather full attack.Seeing how most buff last at least 1 minute/level, I fail to see why they aren't buffing before the battle start.Because you often don't know when the fight's going to start until it does?
I would say that at least 50% of the time you know that the fight is coming. Especially if you are the one starting the hostilities.
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thejeff's solution might work as well. Add something like this into the Infusion discovery description:
"When the alchemist creates an extract, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power. The extract created now persists even after the alchemist sets it down. As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist’s daily extract slots. An infused extract can be imbibed by a non-alchemist to gain its effects. Infused extracts with a range of 'Personal' only affect willing targets."
We are still struck with the other problem about infusions:
they count against your allowed extracts forever until used or destroyed.It was done to avoid the creation of 0 cost potions, but it they are stolen it is a pain.
It would be a good idea to add the ability to dismiss them when you prepare the next batch of extracts.
Naturally it will create the problem of people selling 24 hours potions with 0 production cost. I see the players in a urban adventure going to the local alchemist to get cheap potions.
thejeff's solution might work as well. Add something like this into the Infusion discovery description:
"When the alchemist creates an extract, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power. The extract created now persists even after the alchemist sets it down. As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist’s daily extract slots. An infused extract can be imbibed by a non-alchemist to gain its effects. Infused extracts with a range of 'Personal' only affect willing targets."
We are still struck with the other problem about infusions:
they count against your allowed extracts forever until used or destroyed.
It was done to avoid the creation of 0 cost potions, but it they are stolen it is a pain.
It would be a good idea to add the ability to dismiss them when you prepare the next batch of extracts.
Naturally it will create the problem of people selling 24 hours potions with 0 production cost. I see the players in a urban adventure going to the local alchemist to get cheap potions.That would likely be the same price as an equal level "Paying for Spellcasting" as covered in the equipment section of the Core Rulebook.
We are still struck with the other problem about infusions:
they count against your allowed extracts forever until used or destroyed.
It was done to avoid the creation of 0 cost potions, but it they are stolen it is a pain.
Stolen doesn’t count. You have to *give* them to someone. Sure, that leave a tiny loophole of handing over a infusion to a “richard’ who refuses to use it for days and days, thus denying it to you, but I have never heard of that happening.
We can add: "An infusion made in this way must be used within one hour, or it becomes useless."
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Please don't. It's a very small and rather fun loophole. And, honestly the infusion discovery isnt used by many.Not closing that loophole mean that they will have to close a lot of loopholes with personal spells that have no Saving Throw and Spell Resistance and have negative effects when used on other characters.
Polypurpose Panacea (sleep)+touch injection and I can coup de grace anything.
Polypurpose PanaceaSchool transmutation; Level alchemist 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components S
Range personal
Target you
Duration see below
Sleep: You enter a pleasant and restful sleep for at least 1 hour unless wakened. If you would normally begin sleeping at this time, when the panacea ends you continue sleeping normally.
Same thing with Skinsend and probably a few other spells.
I make you drink that stuff? I don't even need touch injection.
Sharing beneficial personal range spells can be acceptable, "sharing" those with negative effects without giving the target a ST or the use of his SR is unacceptable.
The issue here is touch injection, not personal range infusions. Changing touch injection to not work with Personal range infusions would be one way (among many) to quickly fix this.
@DrDeth
As someone named Richard I find using the name in a derogatory fashion to be offensive my good Dr
@DrDeth
As someone named Richard I find using the name in a derogatory fashion to be offensive my good Dr
Good?!? It’s DrDETH, as in undead, necromancy, aka Evil. BadtotheBone, and all that. None of this “good” stuff, sheesh.
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We are still struck with the other problem about infusions:
they count against your allowed extracts forever until used or destroyed.
It was done to avoid the creation of 0 cost potions, but it they are stolen it is a pain.Stolen doesn’t count. You have to *give* them to someone. Sure, that leave a tiny loophole of handing over a infusion to a “richard’ who refuses to use it for days and days, thus denying it to you, but I have never heard of that happening.
We can add: "An infusion made in this way must be used within one hour, or it becomes useless."
Infusion: When the alchemist creates an extract, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power. The extract created now persists even after the alchemist sets it down. As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist's daily extract slots. An infused extract can be imbibed by a non-alchemist to gain its effects.
Can you point to me where it say that it should be "given" to someone?
Hrm...
Is it possible that the rules already 'fix' the stolen infusion problem?
An infusion is simply an extract that includes a bit more of the Alchemist's magic so that it persists and can be used by others. It doesn't state that it alters anything else, though. And extracts already have a 1-day limit on them.
An extract, once created, remains potent for 1 day before becoming inert, so an alchemist must re-prepare his extracts every day.
When the alchemist creates an extract, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power. The extract created now persists even after the alchemist sets it down. As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist’s daily extract slots. An infused extract can be imbibed by a non-alchemist to gain its effects.
Notice that in the Infusion text, it still refers to it as an extract. The base item being created by the Alchemist is an extract; it is altered so it persists when it's outside of his control, but otherwise I'd argue that it would behave exactly as an extract.
I haven't counted exactly yet, but well over a third of alchemist's 1st level extracts are personal range. If higher levels follow that is a big hit in an already limited selection, at least in comparison to most actual spellcasting classes.
Can you point to me where it say that it should be "given" to someone?
You are the only person who thinks this. JJ said they had to be "given".
Has this ever really happened in a game? Do you actually have other players or a DM that is that big of a donkey? (In deference to the Richards out there)
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You mean this?
The infusion lasts until it is used. That means if you give it to someone and they stash it away in a vault and never use it... you're kinda out that infusion slot and can't access it. Don't give infusions to your enemies!Well, the alchemist is watering down that restriction. He can give out see invisible, true strike and false life as infusions.Why can't I make a potion of see invisibility? Or a potion of true strike, mirror image, divine favor, false life, or longstrider? Those all seem like exactly the type of spells one would expect to exist as potions, yet the rules won't let them be potions. Why?Because those spells are balanced at their level assuming that only the caster can use them. If anyone can use them, they'd be much more powerful than their current level.About infusions:
Infusion: When the alchemist creates an extract, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power. The extract created now persists even after the alchemist sets it down. As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist's daily extract slots. An infused extract can be imbibed by a non-alchemist to gain its effects.Unless I am mistaken this mean that the infusion would last beyond the 24 hours duration of a regular extract.
James, as I am not completely sure of my interpretation I would like a clarification from you.
A infusion last only 24 hours, like a extract, or it last forever, tying down a alchemist extract slot until it is used?
I fail to see the emphasis you place on giving it. It seem more a turn of the phrase.
Beside that the infusion text is very clear: "The extract created now persists even after the alchemist sets it down."
If someone steal it, put it in a vault or use it as an art display it make no difference. The infusion exist and use your extract slot.
Maybe it will not work for someone if the alchemist don't give it willingly to him (but there is no text supporting that interpretation) but it still use the alchemist extract slot.
Beside that the infusion text is very clear: "The extract created now persists even after the alchemist sets it down."
While I (think I) know that JJ created the class, I have to disagree that what he's saying is necessarily what official RAI would be.
"...persists even after the alchemist sets it down" doesn't indicate that it lasts forever. An extract normally becomes inert as soon as it leaves his grasp; the fact that it persists when he sets just means that it doesn't become inert as soon as it leave the creator's person.
So while I respect JJ's interpretation on this, I don't think it would be the 'official' interpretation. Don't forget that at one point, JJ also said that Alchemists should be considered casters for purposes of Craft feats, and that's exactly the opposite of what the official FAQ was.
In my opinion, the discovery continues to refer to what Infusion creates as an 'extract'; therefore, I'd argue that other than the two rules that are specifically altered (that it persists off the alchemist's person, and that others can use it), the other rules remain intact.
I like the infusion discovery. My party likes it as well. I have a middle aged dwarf, that will soon get age resistance, and a monk who shares a G.M.F. potion with the alchemal allocation extract. If I wasn't so stingy i'd share a shield extract.