@ Doodlebug: Samuel R. Delany's Triton would certainly chart somewhere on that line.
As re the who Red Sonja thing, that's why I get sad about how the Alyx the Adventuress stories by Joanna Russ are out of print. If you can find Picnic on Paradise anywhere, read it.
...aaaaand then this particular Frisian jarl felt considerably embarrassed...
No need to be embarrased, it's only speculation. I haven't read the story.
@Dicey--I'll get around to Delany and Russ one of these days, hopefully.
A case of the original being more progressive than the update...weird.Oh, I wouldn't be so sure of that. I haven't read that particular Howard story, but I haven't read much in his ouevre that would lead me to believe it's "progressive."
"The Vale of Lost Women" and all those stories with monstrous-looking "Negroids," I'm looking at you.
I read it years ago and don't recall it too clearly. Given the setting it's probably got some bad Turkish stereotypes.
OTOH, the whole "woman warrior given great skill by the goddess after being raped, which she'll lose if she ever has sex with someone who can't beat her in a fight" thing is just wrong on so many levels."More" progressive is definitely a relative thing.
Seriously Jeff, find the Alyx stories if you can. There was a collection called The Adventures of Alyx, and a short novel (less the 200 pages, included in said collection) which I mentioned above called Picnic on Paradise.
She's a terrific response to everything about Red Sonya you've got a problem with; also, she got in on with Fafhrd at one point (no, seriously, here's her wikipedia entry).
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Well, in SF from before the 80s, progressive is always relative. I mean, Robert Heinlein was right-wing, but his Mobile Infantry had men from all around the world in it (including a Japanese guy, who was meant to be the son of a respected officer - and this in the decade following WWII). Plus, the Navy pilots and captains are all women, and they're shown to be damn good at what they do.
Oh, I wouldn't be so sure of that. I haven't read that particular Howard story, but I haven't read much in his ouevre that would lead me to believe it's "progressive."You'd be wrong.
It's bound to happen occasionally when one speculates.
Thanks Doodlebug. And sorry for dragging us all slightly OT with Red Sonja - her current incarnation was just the most obvious example of this trope that I could think of off the top of my head.
FYI--as a master of the derail, that's the least off-topic derail that I've ever seen.
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LOL, I love all this constant hyper-analylsis of our "misogynist" tendencies in any number of hobbies, genres or whatever. The cries of "misogynist!" run rampant when any photo or picture of a girl is created that drips with raw sexuality. "That's not fair to women!" I hear. "Women don't want to be presented that way! We are more than just sex objects!"
Then I go to the beach and look around.
Right. Sure.
LOL, I love all this constant hyper-analylsis of our "misogynist" tendencies in any number of hobbies, genres or whatever. The cries of "misogynist!" run rampant when any photo or picture of a girl is created that drips with raw sexuality. "That's not fair to women!" I hear. "Women don't want to be presented that way! We are more than just sex objects!"
Then I go to the beach and look around.
Right. Sure.
I'm not sure I understand you, A.D.
Are you saying that because women wear bikinis on the beach, that all they want to be is a sex object?
Besides, as has been stated numerous times, despite the misleading title of the thread, the main objection of people who read that particular issue of the the SFWA was the obviously sexist attitudes of certain columnists, expressing thoughts as enlightened as Barbie being a good role-model for women.
As a founding member of OHWFA!, I whole-heartedly agree that sensual depictions of the female form are not misogynist (and in fact, are often quite hawt).
What do you think of the idea that Barbie is a role-model for women because she "maintained her quiet dignity the way a woman should?"
EDIT: Ninja'd twice in on morning! I'm losing my touch.
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Pippi, my point is that in my experience women want it both ways. They want to complain when men look, but they also do everything they can to be worth looking at.
They rank hypocrisy of the thing is what makes me laugh.
What do you think of the idea that Barbie is a role-model for women because she "maintained her quiet dignity the way a woman should?"
"Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch?"
Katharine Ross...mmmm...
[Drools]
M'lord Dice And I agree that it was, in fact, too much, but m'lady Dice said something about how "it should be enough to destroy the establishment from the inside." M'lord dice looked miffed, but I just smiled and tried my best to maintain my quiet dignity.
As a living embodiment of the chivalric romantic ideal, I am always amenable to the whims and desires of Lady Dice...
[Waggles eyebrows]
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Pippi, my point is that in my experience women want it both ways. They want to complain when men look, but they also do everything they can to be worth looking at.
They rank hypocrisy of the thing is what makes me laugh.
Is that where this is going?
I want you to step back and look at what you've posted. Really consider it.
Do you honestly think that is a good representation of what you're trying to say? Because if it is, I don't think I have anything more to say to you regarding this subect.
Slight derail but related to topic:Katharine Ross...mmmm...
[Drools]
On the first day of shooting, involving the train robbery scenes, Katharine Ross came to the set to watch. There were five cameras and only four operators, so the DP put her on the extra camera. He showed her how to operate it, and how to move it to get her shot. Director George Roy Hill was furious, but said nothing the whole day. At the end of the day, however, he banned her from the set except when she was working.
ugh
why is this happening
these threads make me tired
or maybe it was all those pushups I did while taming those lions
Slight derail but related to topic:Katharine Ross...mmmm...
[Drools]
On the first day of shooting, involving the train robbery scenes, Katharine Ross came to the set to watch. There were five cameras and only four operators, so the DP put her on the extra camera. He showed her how to operate it, and how to move it to get her shot. Director George Roy Hill was furious, but said nothing the whole day. At the end of the day, however, he banned her from the set except when she was working.
Well, maybe he was worried about what the Hollywood unions would say about their work being subcontracted out...
Any dirt on Mike Nichols?
ugh
why is this happening
these threads make me tired
or maybe it was all those pushups I did while taming those lions
Lamontius, just focus on the posts with reading recommendations. I hear Joanna Russ is quite good.
Pippi, my point is that in my experience women want it both ways. They want to complain when men look, but they also do everything they can to be worth looking at.
They rank hypocrisy of the thing is what makes me laugh.
Is that where this is going?
I want you to step back and look at what you've posted. Really consider it.
Do you honestly think that is a good representation of what you're trying to say? Because if it is, I don't think I have anything more to say to you regarding this subect.
LOL, next time you are in a grocery store, take a good look at the front covers of mens' magazines. Then take a good look at the front covers of womens' magazines.
Tell me how different you find the women pictured on those covers to be.
Next, go to google and research the amount of money spent on plastic surgery and cosmetics by women.
Then tell me how men are the ones consumed by looks.
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Pippi, my point is that in my experience women want it both ways. They want to complain when men look, but they also do everything they can to be worth looking at.
They rank hypocrisy of the thing is what makes me laugh.
Is that where this is going?
I want you to step back and look at what you've posted. Really consider it.
Do you honestly think that is a good representation of what you're trying to say? Because if it is, I don't think I have anything more to say to you regarding this subect.
Right. This is my two pence worth on this subject. When women are depicted in a certain way, there's no choice or consent involved. When women dress themselves, that's their choice. Simplistic, but there it is.
Also, before anyone asks: (Epic Linkara voice) I AM A MAN! (Punches the air)
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LOL, next time you are in a grocery store, take a good look at the front covers of mens' magazines. Then take a good look at the front covers of womens' magazines.
Tell me how different you find the women pictured on those covers to be.
Next, go to google and research the amount of money spent on plastic surgery and cosmetics by women.
Then tell me how men are the ones consumed by looks.
I think you're confusing cause and effect.
I think you're confusing cause and effect.LOL, next time you are in a grocery store, take a good look at the front covers of mens' magazines. Then take a good look at the front covers of womens' magazines.
Tell me how different you find the women pictured on those covers to be.
Next, go to google and research the amount of money spent on plastic surgery and cosmetics by women.
Then tell me how men are the ones consumed by looks.
No, I don't think I am.
Pippi, my point is that in my experience women want it both ways. They want to complain when men look, but they also do everything they can to be worth looking at.
They rank hypocrisy of the thing is what makes me laugh.
Is that where this is going?
I want you to step back and look at what you've posted. Really consider it.
Do you honestly think that is a good representation of what you're trying to say? Because if it is, I don't think I have anything more to say to you regarding this subect.
Right. This is my two pence worth on this subject. When women are depicted in a certain way, there's no choice or consent involved. When women dress themselves, that's their choice. Simplistic, but there it is.
Also, before anyone asks: (Epic Linkara voice) I AM A MAN! (Punches the air)
There's a Doonesbury cartoon that I remember where BD's girlfriend Boopsie is being lectured by the feminist character about how BD is "exploiting" her. Her response was "Exploiting!? That sounds sexy!"
A Bloom County cartoon discussing women posing for Playboy also addresses this when Milo Bloom asks why women would appear in Playboy and is told "I hear there is free will involved."
Cartoons can be quite good at distilling issues like these down to reveal things many people like to pretend don't exist.
Lamontius, just focus on the posts with reading recommendations. I hear Joanna Russ is quite good.ugh
why is this happening
these threads make me tired
or maybe it was all those pushups I did while taming those lions
what the-
oh sure make fun of my illiteracyall this thread has taught me is that Patrick Rothfuss is even more awesome than I previously thought and that AD does not understand cause and effect
Lamontius, just focus on the posts with reading recommendations. I hear Joanna Russ is quite good.ugh
why is this happening
these threads make me tired
or maybe it was all those pushups I did while taming those lionswhat the-
oh sure make fun of my illiteracyall this thread has taught me is that Patrick Rothfuss is even more awesome than I previously thought and that AD does not understand cause and effect
LOL, again, I think I understand it better than you seem to. The idea that women act the way they do because they are reacting to men is deeply insulting to womens' ability to think for themselves.
That's something you won't find me doing. I think women are quite capable of controlling their own lives and making their own decisions.
all this thread has taught me is that Patrick Rothfuss is even more awesome than I previously thought
He'd be even awesomer if he was topless...as a hairy man with some extra pounds myself, I'd love to see some objectification of corpulent beardos.
Never mind. I found some on my own.
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Y'know...this thread suddenly made me think of the Terry Pratchett conundrum: you know, pole-dancing isn't Art but being painted wearing nothing but a small smile and a bunch of grapes is good solid Art, but you can't quite put your finger on why...
Seriously. I've never thought renditions of the female form are misogynistic in the least. My objection's always been when SF/F writers and artists *only* have female characters who are tall, smokin' hot, wear costumes with less than a square inch of fabric...AND HAVE NO OTHER CHARACTERISTICS. I crave diversity in female characters, and while stories increasingly provide this, cover art and comic books are still quite behind.
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Never mind. I found some on my own.
I already got tricked into clicking on that Hawkeye Initiative link, and after the Hercules-as-Lady-Death image, I'm totally blind and typing by sense of smell.
I will not be fooled/Herc-rolled again...
Y'know...this thread suddenly made me think of the Terry Pratchett conundrum: you know, pole-dancing isn't Art but being painted wearing nothing but a small smile and a bunch of grapes is good solid Art, but you can't quite put your finger on why...
Seriously. I've never thought renditions of the female from are misogynistic in the least. My objection's always been when SF/F writers and artists *only* have female characters who are tall, smokin' hot, wear costumes with less than a square inch of fabric...AND HAVE NO OTHER CHARACTERISTICS. I crave diversity in female characters, and while stories increasingly provide this, cover art and comic books are still quite behind.
Yeah, this is part of the point I've been snarkily making.
The other part is that the idea that fantasy art is in any way different than People Magazine photos, summer blockbuster movies or beer commercials is ludicrous in the extreme.
Sexy renditions of the female form have been part of human culture as far back as anthropologists have been able to dig sculptures out of the dirt. Just as phallic renditions of the male form have been.
You don't hear a lot of complaints about all the overt phallic symbolism of the male part of the population though. But there's always some hoopla going on about how women are "sexualized" by our culture.
Ever visit the Washington Monument?
female *form... :-P
You know there's an "edit" button, right?
One more book recommendation before I try to find other things to do today without any money or access to a vehicle...
I've been masochistically re-reading some TSR fiction from yesteryear that reminds me of my happy childhood poring over AD&D modules in the back of my parents' station wagon while being dragged to skeet shooting tournaments throughout the American Northeast and I was reminded of a novel that I've mentioned before.
The write-up should give an indication of its on-topicness to this thread, but it neglects to mention the protagonist's sidekick and her contemptuous feminist commentary on our wonderful subculture.
I haven't read it in 20 years, so I can't actually vouch for it, but I remember enjoying it immensely and I daresay it was my first introduction to ideas about women's liberation.
Never mind. I found some on my own.I already got tricked into clicking on that Hawkeye Initiative link, and after the Hercules-as-Lady-Death image, I'm totally blind and typing by sense of smell.
I will not be fooled/Herc-rolled again...
Hee hee!
It's not Herc-rolling if I advertise it as objectification of corpulent beardos, is it?
Sexy renditions of the female form have been part of human culture as far back as anthropologists have been able to dig sculptures out of the dirt.
Bimbos of the Death Sun is awesome. And I never really was part of "fan culture", so I probably missed a lot of what it was lampooning.
Yeah, I remember really liking it.
I only attended my first gaming convention two winters ago, and I remember thinking, "I wonder if it's going to be like Bimbos."
Friend Set may be interested in learning that I got my copy at the soon-to-be-moving bookstore around the corner from his house.
And with that, I really must go do something else today...
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Sexy renditions of the female form have been part of human culture as far back as anthropologists have been able to dig sculptures out of the dirt.More XXXX-rolling for Friend Set
Without even clicking, I knew this was going to be one of those stone fertility statues, like Cher's character from the Witches of Eastwick movie was making...
And now that I've replied to it, I can see the link. Yup.
I feel certain that it was a different Conan story by Robert E. Howard, "Xuthal of the Dusk", that inspired "The Lost City".
EDIT: Since "I feel certain" probably doesn't sound convincing, I offer an argument to support my belief:
In "Xuthal of the Dusk", Conan and his inevitable female companion struggle through a desert and run out of water. Then they discover a lost city, the last remnant of a once-great civilization, where many of the people now spend most of their time in a drug-induced haze, and worship a monster god with whom Conan fights the climactic battle of the story.
In "The Lost City", the PCs struggle through a desert and run out of water. Then they discover a lost city, the last remnant of a once-great civilization, where many of the people now spend most of their time in a drug-induced haze, and worship a monster god with whom the PCs fight the climactic battle of the module.