(Also, Vasquez is an interesting example because there's a whole other issue to take with her character than she's a female that dies. But I digress.)
Really? Do tell...
Really? Do tell...
Well, I recall reading an angry rant about how the actress, Jenette Goldstein, was painted to look latino. Instead of casting someone more visually appropriate.
*shrug*
Really? Do tell...Well, I recall reading an angry rant about how the actress, Jenette Goldstein, was painted to look latino. Instead of casting someone more visually appropriate.
*shrug*
That reminds me of the furore over Jango and Boba Fett being racist dipictions of Latinos... The funny thing is the people who were crying racism were judging the actors race by their looks... Both actors were Maori (Native New Zealanders), very insulting to both of them.
There is no way in hell would I insult the guy who played Jake the Muss...
I wish Temuera Morrison was allowed to play Jango as Jake... The movies would have been so much better.
That reminds me of the furore over Jango and Boba Fett being racist dipictions of Latinos... The funny thing is the people who were crying racism were judging the actors race by their looks... Both actors were Maori (Native New Zealanders), very insulting to both of them
I remember the outrage well. It was hilarious. :)
Well, I recall reading an angry rant about how the actress, Jenette Goldstein, was painted to look latino. Instead of casting someone more visually appropriate.
Ahhh ok, I don't buy into that silliness so all good, thanks for the info :)
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Re: Bikinis vs. nudity, the former is FAR more sexually suggestive, as it teasingly accentuates only certain features. As a strong naturist proponent myself, I can aver that, when you get a bunch of people of all shapes and sizes together in a naked context, they're usually not thinking about how much easier it would be to boink each other. They're thinking about how nice it is not to have to conceal things, because concealing the body with clothes is a lot like concealing your thoughts and motives with lies, and when you divest yourself of one, it's sort of part of the whole thing to divest with the other, too. If you've never tried it for real (not in a context of "Ooh! We're so naughty for skinny dipping!" but rather in a context of "we're doing this because it makes sense to us"), then it's hard to explain.
Re: Why do a lot of women wear skimpy bikinis? I can't speak for "most" women, but I listen to my wife and her mother and sisters talk, and for them, the answer is because other women tell them to. My wife holds up a functional swimsuit and her sisters make ugly faces and yell "Ick!" She holds up a bikini and they coo over it and exclaim, "Oh, that's CUTE!" If she decides on the "icky" one, they tell her "Oh, come on! You don't want that one! You need the other one!" My opinion, as a man, is not solicited or wanted, so there's no way for me to really blame my own rampant mysoginism for her swimsuit choices.
"The girls" are similarly intrusive, adamant, and inflexible in policing each others' personal grooming standards and enforcing conformity, even regarding places one wouldn't normally be able to see even in a bikini.
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Re: Why do a lot of women wear skimpy bikinis? I can't speak for "most" women, but I listen to my wife and her mother and sisters talk, and for them, the answer is because other women tell them to. My wife holds up a functional swimsuit and her sisters make ugly faces and yell "Ick!" She holds up a bikini and they coo over it and exclaim, "Oh, that's CUTE!" If she decides on the "icky" one, they tell her "Oh, come on! You don't want that one! You need the other one!" My opinion, as a man, is not solicited or wanted, so there's no way for me to really blame my own rampant mysoginism for her swimsuit choices.
"The girls" are similarly intrusive, adamant, and inflexible in policing each others' personal grooming standards and enforcing conformity, even regarding places one wouldn't normally be able to see even in a bikini.
This (what sort of swimsuits women select and why) is utterly irrelevant to the discussion of whether it's acceptable for male authors to be discussing in an industry publication how their female colleagues would look in swimwear.
To be to fair Brother Kirth, this thread hasn't really been about the SWFA Bulletin since, like, the first page.
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To be to fair Brother Kirth, this thread hasn't really been about the SWFA Bulletin since, like, the first page.
Yep old mate Kirth is sharing a life experience not commenting on the original post. The last page has been talking about the Hawtness of the cast of Aliens and morons who can't tell the difference between Latin Americans and Maoris.
This thread was well and truly done pages ago...
So verbal kerb stomping Kirth without checking the context is not nice.
I vote we lock the thread its done.
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There's an awful lot of discussion in this thread about how women are being hypocritical to complain about being treated as sex objects, and then presenting themselves in any kind of potentially provocative fashion.
This is a false dichotomy. It is also not the problem being discussed. Framing it in those terms is (at best) not understanding the issue, and (at worst) a Strawman.
Women, generally, don't mind being looked at. For many it's a point of pride. This concept isn't even gender-specific. People like being found attractive.
What women get upset about being treated derisively because of their appearance.
There's nothing wrong with chainmail bikinis. There's nothing wrong with girls at conventions cosplaying sexualized characters. There's nothing wrong with women who pose nude, or wear three square centimeters of cloth as a bathing suit at the beach. A woman could choose to dance naked down the middle of the street and there's nothing wrong with that either.
No matter what a woman looks like, or how provocatively she presents herself, that in not an invitation for anyone to treat her badly. Men do not have the right to say or do anything to any woman, no matter how they are dressed. The odds are good that whatever she's doing, she's not doing it for you.
There is no hypocrisy here. The basic principle that someone should be able to present themselves however they want without being dehumanized should be self-evident.
So go ahead and look when people put themselves on display. Just don't let yourself think that the display is somehow an invitation for harassment or judgement.
This (what sort of swimsuits women select and why) is utterly irrelevant to the discussion of whether it's acceptable for male authors to be discussing in an industry publication how their female colleagues would look in swimwear.
I think that the actual reason so many actual Authors are upset has been lost in this discussion.
Do we know if the women that were being discussed felt like they were being treated badly?
Do we know if the women that were being discussed felt like they were being treated badly?
I am not sure if that is completely relevant here. This was not in internal "office" conversation, but a publicly printed article.
I got the impression that they were talking about old-timers, possibly even dead people. I couldn't find an actual copy of the article on-line and, for whatever reason, all the sites that I clicked to from the original Guardian article didn't ever spell out who they were talking about.
I'd repeat, though, that OHWFA! supports the discussion of hawt female sciene-fiction writers and editors of yore.
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On Monday night I was playing the new (and sadly withdrawn) Marvel Heroic Role-Playing game, and there was a young woman playing in her first RPG. She seemed well-versed on gender issues, and I brought up the Kamala/Obama thing I found out about on this thread (I don't think it made the news over here).
From the little I could tell her, she couldn't understand what Obama did wrong either, but maybe there's part of the story that I don't know about that would make him the villain of the piece, but I doubt it.
Anyway, she then told me about an incident that took place where she works; university admin, I believe. She said that in an official work meeting, there was one guy and the rest women, and most of those were middle aged and, reading between the lines, perhaps not as up on their gender issues as they might be (I'm choosing my words carefully, here). She said that these women spent most of the meeting telling each other about which men they would 'do', and how/for how long/with what! She was disgusted, and felt sorry for the only guy present. She pointed out that they might get away with it, but if a room full of men were discussing women in an exactly similar manner (with one woman present), then the university would be up in arms! And rightly so!
I have conflicting thoughts on this. First, groups of women behave similarly to groups of men, and just as badly. Not admirable, certainly, but....normal! Like it or not. And I don't. But denying it would be dishonest. So this behaviour is not the fault of men, per se, but a fault in humanity.
Second, I hate injustice. When women are subject to bad behaviour, I hate it. I also hate it when false accusations are slung about, no matter who the victim is.
Real life is complex. The best wisdom I have gleaned in my years is that balance is best. Each case must be judged on it's own merits. It is very human to paint one lot of people as the 'baddies' and the other as the 'goodies', so everything the baddies do is wrong and everything the goodies do is okay, and in this particular subject 'men' are painted as the baddies.
I think this does all of humanity a disservice!
So uh
I wish this thread had talked about the thing it was about
but instead it just became basically something that is not good
I want you to be better paizo forums but instead you are basically about terrible threads these days
I want you to be better paizo forums but instead you are basically about terrible threads these days
Lead by example, sir! Lead by example.
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Given that I was the one who brought Aliens into this thing, I'll try to set things right...
In all seriousness, one of the reasons I got into Sci-fi and fantasy in the first place was because most good stories in the genre are gender-blind. Even politically right-wing authors have produced heroines like Honor Harrington, to say nothing of every other woman in the Royal Manticoran Navy. One of the things I always loved in Sci-fi was the idea of better worlds where people were judged on merit, not on race or gender or religion. So when I see authors being sexist - and female authors getting hate mail for taking a stand - I feel pretty damn betrayed.
So uh
I wish this thread had talked about the thing it was about
but instead it just became basically something that is not good
I want you to be better paizo forums but instead you are basically about terrible threads these days
Well, I did my best.
In addition, I got a new Paizo girlfriend through Private Messages about Machiavelli and Muddy Waters, so, as far as I'm concerned, this is the best thread ever!
[Performs another pastorella for his nameless beloved]
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Private Messages about Machiavelli and Muddy Waters...
Love Muddy Waters. But he's a man. And that's off-topic. I'd best go now, before I get yelled at again...
Private Messages about Machiavelli and Muddy Waters...Love Muddy Waters. But he's a man. And that's off-topic. I'd best go now, before I get yelled at again...
I like being yelled at, I feel like I am providing a service... Old fat overly "advantaged" "white" dude available to be "put in his place" so you can finish your game of righting the worlds wrongs bingo...
;-)
Apropos of nothing, Comrade Dwarf, but:
Do you like Woody Allen films?
Apropos of nothing, Comrade Dwarf, but:
Do you like Woody Allen films?
I try to like them but I find them overwrought...
My humor leans way to the left, for sit coms and movies I relate to British humor and for Stand up and political satire its Australian/British as well.
I think MASH is still the best US anti-war message through humor ever made.
Thank you, Comrade Dwarf.
[Shakes his fist at Mr. Shifty]
Thank you, Comrade Dwarf.
[Shakes his fist at Mr. Shifty]
Mr Shifty is employed directly by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of the Commonwealth of Australia.
He is probably more centrist then I am but even then the Australian military is unlike others in its politics..
If you'd like to discuss barriers to progress, the bolded phrase provides an example. If you believe that those on the left never commit acts of racism and sexism and those on the right always commit acts of racism and sexism and are the only ones who commit acts of racism and sexism, you make things worse and not better. Look at Bill Clinton's scandals as governor of Arkansas (which didn't surface until later) and as president, and the behavior of Obama's Secret Service. The belief in question promotes sexism by giving a free pass to anyone who commits acts of sexism but is on the left- giving a free pass to sexists is a significant part of why sexism is as strong as it is today.Given that I was the one who brought Aliens into this thing, I'll try to set things right...
In all seriousness, one of the reasons I got into Sci-fi and fantasy in the first place was because most good stories in the genre are gender-blind. Even politically right-wing authors have produced heroines like Honor Harrington, to say nothing of every other woman in the Royal Manticoran Navy. One of the things I always loved in Sci-fi was the idea of better worlds where people were judged on merit, not on race or gender or religion. So when I see authors being sexist - and female authors getting hate mail for taking a stand - I feel pretty damn betrayed.
How would it be possible to believe the part I bolded and write the part you bolded?
Heroes and Heroines have always been co-opted by either side to advance their political agenda...
From Zenobia, to Britannia (Bodicea), to Joan of Arc, its been done for thousands of years.
Fair enough, but "Even right-wing authors have produced [apparently] pro-grrl power characters" doesn't seem anything like giving "leftists" like Clinton and the Secret Service a pass to me.
I am surprised that Comrade Goblin has not pointed out the fundamental differences between left and right and why the left (proper left the Democrats aren't left they are centre right party) is more concerned with the rights of the common person than the right could ever be.
A) Derailery.
B) Even the far left has had its problems with sexism and rape scandals.
More importantly, I just read the Dark Horse version of Howard's "The Frost Giant's Daughter."
Hawt!!!
True the left is a f##$ing long way from perfect... How ever I would take the ideology of the left of worker health, safety, fair pay and freedom from exploitation by the rich and powerful as opposed to the Rights maintenance of the status quo and concentration of wealth and power in the hands of the few, every time.
Fundamentally the left is about fairness for all and the right is survival of the fittest.
Dammit Goblin you got a slow moving Fabian (or Chardonnay socialist) like myself riled up and doing your work.... Get back to the barricades.
Time and place, Comrade Dwarf. This thread is for hawt chicks in fantasy and sci-fi and the feminist critique of them.
Nothing wrong with Fabians, my two fellow ALP members and favourite PM's (Messers Hawke and Keating) were Fabians.
Next time I run into Sister Margatroid, Mr. Shifty, I'm going to find out what she thinks of the cinematic feasts of Lord Konigsberg.
There's gotta be more than one!
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And '50 shades of grey' featured the flattest one dimensional characters going round, pure fantasy drivel, yet a BIG hit with the ladies.Of course it is. Sexuality is inherently interesting to most male and many female readers.
That novel completely undermines most everything espoused by the Modern Woman. I can't believe so many women sincerely like it.
Mr Shifty is employed directly by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of the Commonwealth of Australia.He is probably more centrist then I am but even then the Australian military is unlike others in its politics..
Even more to the point, not only did I take the King's Shilling, I took a commission too.
What I'd give for a fine pair of white cross straps on a red coat
"If I should fall to rise no more,
As many comrades did before,
Ask the pipes and drums to play
Over the hills and far away".
See, even back when serving King George we had Bolshy members.
That novel completely undermines most everything espoused by the Modern Woman. I can't believe so many women sincerely like it.
So what's that telling you?
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Mr Shifty is employed directly by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of the Commonwealth of Australia.He is probably more centrist then I am but even then the Australian military is unlike others in its politics..
Even more to the point, not only did I take the King's Shilling, I took a commission too.
What I'd give for a fine pair of white cross straps on a red coat
"If I should fall to rise no more,
As many comrades did before,
Ask the pipes and drums to play
Over the hills and far away".See, even back when serving King George we had Bolshy members.
...but for a better listen in the Parliament 240 years ago, the US might simply be America now and a member of the Commonwealth.
Just took another look at the cover of the magazine in question: you guys do realize she just killed a frickin' Frost Giant Jarl, right?!?
Hawt and scary-awesome.
Yeah, a few decades ago it would have been some Conan guy standing over the dead giant dressed in nothing but a cloak and a loincloth and the woman would have been peeking around some boulder at the great man who saved her. Nice to see a woman not needing saving.