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Hiya,
First off I have checked out the forum, and didn't find the ruling on this a bit strange topic.
We have today argued about Mithral usage in Kikko armour.
What bonus did it give?
Many claim the standard mithral bonus of course, however I argued for something completely different = NO bonus.
here is why:
To provide a bonus the primary component of the item in question should be metal. Kikko is a cloth armour reenforced with metal plates.
Yes you could have the metals made in mithral even not covered by cloth. While it would look shining the armour would still be a cloth armor with metal and not a metal armour with cloth around.
I know many would dislike this reading the rules since Bards and the like benefit GREATLY of a mithral kikko armour.
Rules stats I believe:
Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithal
I therefore hope to get a ruling on the subject : Are Kikko Armours Metal with cloth (hence usable for Mithral bonus) or Cloth with metal (hence NOT usable for Mithral bonus)
thanks in advance
To me it seems pretty clear cut that it would apply. The actual armor (i.e. the parts protecting the wearer) are iron plates, and the fact that they're sown into cloth is as a means of wearing the plates. The metal plates are lighter and more maneuverable, which is why the acp, arcane failure, and speed penalty are decreased, and why it's treated as light armor.
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That seem to be the general consensus however that to not comply with the rules since it should PRIMARY be of metal. Anyone that have seen a Kikko knows very well its primary cloth, cloth and more cloth.
This is why I asked for a ruling on the topic. Most people feel it should apply even thought its not primary metal.
Anyhow one could make the same argue for a quarterstaff (which isnt made of metal) equipped with mithral tips. That should then, since the point of striking is the mithral tip, apply as a mithral, however rules are VERY precise there say "noway"!
by the way I understand the benefits as much as the next guy and would love to have a light wearing spell caster running around in such an armour.
It's medium armor that provides a +5 AC bonus and weighs 25 pounds...and you DON'T think the metal is the primary component? It's basically just a slight step up from being a chain shirt, only the metal in this case is more tiny plates than links. Seriously, read up on it: Kikko armor.
That seem to be the general consensus however that to not comply with the rules since it should PRIMARY be of metal. Anyone that have seen a Kikko knows very well its primary cloth, cloth and more cloth.
This is why I asked for a ruling on the topic. Most people feel it should apply even thought its not primary metal.
Anyhow one could make the same argue for a quarterstaff (which isnt made of metal) equipped with mithral tips. That should then, since the point of striking is the mithral tip, apply as a mithral, however rules are VERY precise there say "noway"!
by the way I understand the benefits as much as the next guy and would love to have a light wearing spell caster running around in such an armour.
You're trying to twist words to go against the intent here. The cloth isn't keeping the blows off the wearer of the kikko armor here anymore than the wood shaft of an arrow is what's doing the real penetrating when it hits flesh. Spears, quarrels, arrows, flails and other weapons can all have the majority of their bulk be non-metal, but it's the parts that actually do the HITTING or the BEING HIT that really matter. Unless specified otherwise (like with leather or hide armor or obsidian headed arrows), in all these cases that part is metal.
I do see DickovDK's point, in that kikko is already designed with exceptional flexibility in mind (since each metal plate is surrounded by a cloth seam.) Cloth is used wherever flexibility is required, so the metal only exists as separated plates, negating mithral's usual claim to fame as allowing smaller, finer links and joints that boost flexibility.
Anyhow. While you're free to house-rule, it doesn't seem worthwhile to build special rules for a single type of armor. Either class it with studded leather (another partially-metal armor that mithral won't benefit) or decide that it qualifies - inventing a third category seems like more effort than it's worth, unless there's a crazed Mithral-Kikko Smith wandering the land.
(And if there is, tell him I said hi.)
Mithral really isn't more flexible than other metals. In fact, an argument could be made for the opposite when you see that it's half again as hard as steel. It IS incredibly light, though, which is why it allows you to move faster in it. If it were simply about the metal being flexible, then DickovDK would have a very solid point. However, the fact that mithral does not alter how armor works (meaning that it still requires the appropriate degree of training and familiarity via the Armor Proficiency feats), means that flexibility is out, leaving only weight as the consideration for why the wearers range and speed of movement is impacted.
Seems pretty legit to say Kikko benefits from Mithral. All the pictures I found on the web that shows it mostly made of metal and the cloth just covers where the metal bits are, so I don't see why it wouldn't benefit from mithral.
EDIT: The description of the armor doesn't make it sound like it's more made of cloth than metal. Ultimate Combat uses similar wording as well.
From Ultimate Equipment: Kikko armors consist of a clever arrangement of hexagonal plates made from iron and sewn to cloth, granting the wearer greater flexibility than that provided by many armors that afford similar defense. The plates may be left exposed or hidden in a layer of cloth.
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Actually this question turned precisely the direction I thought it would. I am however not trying to twist any words, just want to do the correct ruling when my next bard in a PFS table sits down.
I think the solid point from a gaming perspective is actually that its considered MEDIUM armor - and therefore differs from Studded leather, which as Lincoln points out is somewhat the same.
However IF I had to go by RAW I would disallow it to be made of mithral no matter if its considered the protection part of the armor. Simply because RAW claims PRIMARY component - so what I am trying is actually making sure that people are using it according to the rules (which is important in PFS).
I however like the points noted but fore and against (even the bit of flaming which one always gets ;-))
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I'm of the school that it should be allowed to be made of Mithral, as the primary protective component is the metal plates, not the cloth holding it up.
However, from a sense of practicality here, why make this stipulation? If you do, people will just have there Kikko made out of Darkleaf Cloth instead, for a 2.5k discount I might add.
Hadn't thought about the darkleaf actually, nice one - however it do NOT lower the type of armor as mithral does. But I like the alternative to be honest!
I'd probably rule that a kikko can be made of mithral as well, based on the weight of the armor and my own (admittedly limited) understanding of the armor. From what I can tell the cloth is the harness used to keep the metal in place and the metal itself is the primary protection. How much of the armor is "harness" and how much is "protection" isn't really relevant, you need to look at the actual composition of the armor in question. The fact that there is a lot of harness to keep the armor in place isn't really relevant to the rules on Mithril.
On the other hand, the studded leather armor primarily relies on leather to provide the protection, the studs are merely an added benefit. The primary source of "protection" is leather, therefore it doesn't qualify.
Actually this question turned precisely the direction I thought it would. I am however not trying to twist any words, just want to do the correct ruling when my next bard in a PFS table sits down.
I think the solid point from a gaming perspective is actually that its considered MEDIUM armor - and therefore differs from Studded leather, which as Lincoln points out is somewhat the same.
However IF I had to go by RAW I would disallow it to be made of mithral no matter if its considered the protection part of the armor. Simply because RAW claims PRIMARY component - so what I am trying is actually making sure that people are using it according to the rules (which is important in PFS).
I however like the points noted but fore and against (even the bit of flaming which one always gets ;-))
While I wouldn't consider anything anyone said here (myself included) flaming, I will apologize for anything insulting that may have come through earlier in my posts.
I will end my argument in favor of letting mithral work in kikko armor with these two things...1) Take a look at this, it's a Google image search for kikko armor. Note the up-close pictures of the armor itself and how it forms a shell with only small gaps in it that would protect the user. As per the wikipedia article I linked, the name of the armor itself in Japanese even refers to the shell of a turtle. I can only guess at why no metal was used in the many-layered cloth versions of this type of armor you've seen.
2) The Pathfinder descrption of the kikko armor states it as such -
Kikko armor consists of hexagonal plates made from iron and sewn to cloth. The plates may be hidden by a layer of cloth or left exposed. (emphasis mine)
Sounds like the primary component is metal, right?
Obviously, if you're GMing something it's up to you how it works, it's not even a house-rule necessarily. However, based on how the armor appears to work, you're probably creating a fair bit of grief for yourself and your players when you issue this ruling against the stated rationales in this thread.
Sorry, the armor is mostly metal plates.
I also think kikko is primarily metal and can benefit from mithral armor by RAW.
Mountain pattern and tatami-do are both also "metal on cloth" armors that I would allow to be made from mithral.
Conversely, padded armor, quilted cloth, and silken ceremonial are not primarily made of armor, and thus would not qualify for mithral. They could be made out of darkleaf cloth however.