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Role Playing is where you make it... make time for it. It doesn't have to be hours of talking in funny voices... though they often help distinguish OOC from IC statements. It fits easily into the little spaces between game mechanics - if you try.
For example, during introductions at the start of a game, I will, in a faux French accent, ask each other PC (often starting with any young ladies at the table) "Are you currently involved in a long term relationship?" I normally get stammers and blushes. In my PC voice I go on to say "I am a Matchmaker by profession you see, it is my 'day job' (finger quotes) - so if you might be interested in such a relationship, perhaps we might discuss some of my other clients? My card - " and I hand out a business card. At this point I switch to my OOC voice and say ... "Role Play often suffers due to time constraints, and we only have a limited time for this tonight so..." Glance back at the judge who is about ready to start at this point and back in character voice "Sigh... It appears that we have got to save the world again now, perhaps after that we'll find your one true love, yes?"

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Role Playing is where you make it... make time for it. It doesn't have to be hours of talking in funny voices... though they often help distinguish OOC from IC statements. It fits easily into the little spaces between game mechanics - if you try.
For example, during introductions at the start of a game, I will, in a faux French accent, ask each other PC (often starting with any young ladies at the table) "Are you currently involved in a long term relationship?" I normally get stammers and blushes. In my PC voice I go on to say "I am a Matchmaker by profession you see, it is my 'day job' (finger quotes) - so if you might be interested in such a relationship, perhaps we might discuss some of my other clients? My card - " and I hand out a business card. At this point I switch to my OOC voice and say ... "Role Play often suffers due to time constraints, and we only have a limited time for this tonight so..." Glance back at the judge who is about ready to start at this point and back in character voice "Sigh... It appears that we have got to save the world again now, perhaps after that we'll find your one true love, yes?"
Agreed. It can be a tricky balance between rolling a 30+ diplomacy check in 4-5 tier and having an in character comment of: "My youngest, Shawn..he's your age sweetie, heard that..(someone) said this to (someone else) who was overheard by so&tsp..." This character is the charming old woman everyone calls on for help. The trick is to enhance play while not overly bogging it down.
Of course get on her BAD side and ... Well she has said "I done brought in a lot of folk into this world, an seen a fair measures of them on the way out too...."

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Just out of curiosity,what are you running?
Like a lot of people are saying, it depends on a number of variables.
Namely;
Players/GM
Scenario/Module
Venue
TimeTime seems to be the biggest influence. The greater the issue with time, the more the game becomes about the dice.
I would add 'what your baseline expectation of 'sufficient' roleplay is'. I have played at least one PFS scenario which was run like Space Hulk (here is the map, here are your minis, there are the monster minis), and others where we were drinking tea in-character. I can see the refs of both being on the same table and describing it differently.

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Hello,
I recently played my first game of PFS, and I have a question/concern about the game style. I like to have a character with personality, and to RP with the NPC's and my fellow characters. Is PFS the right place for this?
The game I played in, the first 15 minutes was everyone trying to complete their faction side quests, and it consisted of:
GM: Where do you have to go?
PC: XXXXX location
GM: OK, you get there, and ask for your contact, roll a Blah Blah check.
PC: *rolls* and tells GM
GM: Advise on pass/fail of check and results.No chatting up the NPC, no discussion of options, no RP to try and find alternate solutions.
The rest of the game was a dungeon crawl, with no conversations IC and just the DM explaining that in room A3 you find 3 goblins, roll init... Very little fluff, no real mood, and 3/4 of the time, the goblins just did random silliness and ignored the PC's while we killed them. I understand there is only so many ways you can flavor up a great axe one shotting a gobbo, but it was just hit/miss, X damage, live/dead. The game ended after the final fight with a: "You get the treasure, return to base, give your reports, and head to bed. Game over"
Over-all, a fairly unsatisfying game. Is PFS usually like this?
Now, if my GM and/or other players read this; this is not a knock on you or your play style. I had fun shooting the breeze and chatting with you out of character, and it could have just been the scenario, hence my question.
Having run PFS games myself, it is very, very difficult to include in-depth roleplay in a PFS session due to the time restraints; of the 3-4 hours alotted, I've had to finish modules in 2.5 due to late arrivals, chatter, and other delays.
That said, I think PFS is an excellent organization that provides a lot of opportunities for local gamers to meet each other, learn one another's play styles, and test out new character concepts/builds.

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When I DM games. I want at the minimum a synopsis of what the characters are trying to do.
I do not accept "I use diplomacy" as an answer. If you say I want to speak nice to him and compliment his bar. That I accept. Same with "I assist", how do you assist? I stand behind him and nod, fine.
If players do a good job roleplaying or it fits I gave a bonus. Sometimes a penalty if you mention the wrong thing too, but these are much more rare.
Everyone enjoys different parts from the game, and I cheat players that enjoy that part if I skip it. Also some players may not know that part of the game is an option. I try to roleplay everything including the BBEG. I will taunt players, fake curses, and whatever to get them involved. Some bad guys I want the PCs to hate on personal level so victory is that much sweeter.

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I do not accept "I use diplomacy" as an answer.
This point comes up often, and I used to believe in it to, but I've changed my stance over the years.
Would you accept "I use climb" as an answer when determining whether the PC scales the side of a cliff? Or would you want them to describe where they place their hands and feet, and what sorts of knots they used?
Some players do not have the social graces of their characters. And some players do not know the canon well enough to respond appropriately regarding particular situations. Some players are terrible at lying (myself included). Some players just can't make a threat seem serious.
Realizing that, I stopped disallowing or penalizing poor roleplay when it came to Diplomacy (and Bluff and the others), and now simply reward good roleplay instead. I still ask players what they want their characters to say, including when they assist, but I recognize that not everybody has that ability IRL, and if their only response is "I use diplomacy", I let them.

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Finlanderboy wrote:I do not accept "I use diplomacy" as an answer....
Would you accept "I use climb" as an answer when determining whether the PC scales the side of a cliff? Or would you want them to describe where they place their hands and feet, and what sorts of knots they used?
...
I stopped disallowing or penalizing poor roleplay when it came to Diplomacy (and Bluff and the others), and now simply reward good roleplay instead...
May I ask for a bonus to my Climb checks if I do describe where my character places her hands and feet and what knots she is using. ;)
Totally agree with your point, though. :D

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Finlanderboy wrote:I do not accept "I use diplomacy" as an answer.This point comes up often, and I used to believe in it to, but I've changed my stance over the years.
Would you accept "I use climb" as an answer when determining whether the PC scales the side of a cliff? Or would you want them to describe where they place their hands and feet, and what sorts of knots they used?
Some players do not have the social graces of their characters. And some players do not know the canon well enough to respond appropriately regarding particular situations. Some players are terrible at lying (myself included). Some players just can't make a threat seem serious.
Realizing that, I stopped disallowing or penalizing poor roleplay when it came to Diplomacy (and Bluff and the others), and now simply reward good roleplay instead. I still ask players what they want their characters to say, including when they assist, but I recognize that not everybody has that ability IRL, and if their only response is "I use diplomacy", I let them.
Someone coming up to an obstacle and saying I use climb does not satisfy me either. Do they plan on using a climbing kit? Do you want o fast climb? Do you plan on bracing or using a corner? So yes, I want more.
I do not penalize for failure to roleplay. Considering there are these options for diplomacy, and I have to figure out what they are asking.
Request Diplomacy DC Modifier
Give simple advice or directions –5
Give detailed advice +0
Give simple aid +0
Reveal an unimportant secret +5
Give lengthy or complicated aid +5
Give dangerous aid +10
Reveal an important secret +10 or more
Give aid that could result in punishment +15 or more
Additional requests +5 per request

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Ok, this is going to be a bit crude - maybe a borderline rant...feel free to skip it
So, it appears we are back to giving rewards (and punishment) for players to play the way we want (or don't want) them to.
My wife is a bit shy. She enjoys playing, and for the right group she can really come out of her shell. When she does, everyone at the table enjoys her PC and her gaming.
Sometimes she plays a Diplomat. Yeah, a shy Diplomat.
She has practiced the speach "My character is much more diplomatic than I am. I would like her to convince (insert NPC here) to (insert what we need the NPC to do)." She has this speech printed on the back of the table tent for her "Diplomat", where she can read it when she needs to, when she finds herself overcome with shyness.
I've seen some judges "hold her to the task" and say "What EXACTLY does your PC say?" and watch helplessly while a fun game turned into a painful experience for her. Anyone else at the table trying to help her (me, or any other player) was hushed by the judge ("you're character isn't there!") while he stares at this grown woman struggle to say anything. Holding her to every word that she utters, ever stutter. With her realizing that she is failing in her group task, letting the entire team down, because she can't do the job she picked. Needless to say, we never played for that judge again.
Not many judges are that bad, but some are almost as bad - without even realizing it. She's good enough at the rules to realize after the game that she failed a check by the 2 points the judge reduced her check result by - because she can't "act in character the way other people can". So she says to me "you should run the Face PC, you get better results, you can smooze the GM better than me"... yeah. So those judges push her into playing shy PCs, 'cause she doesn't play the game the way they want her to.
This is a lady who can get up in church and sing solo in front of 200 people. The same lady that can brake an entire table up in laughter with a sly comment ("That's going to leave a mark" when the monster charges into the door she just cast invisibility on.) But, sometimes she is shy, and needs to just roll the dice. Sometimes we role play, sometimes we roll play. It's all part of the game.
If the player isn't sure how it can be done (because they don't have a +29 Diplomacy themselves), why not supply it as the Judge? Pull the player into the game... tell us what the +29 Diplomat knows that we as players don't.
Bashful Bard Player A "I try to intimidate the Mook into telling us what he knows... I got a 34"
Helpful Cleric Player B "Can I assist?! I assist! all I needed was a 10 right! wow I add +2!"
Judge "The Bard, in misty Mistmail steps to the door and, as the cleric swings open the door, she steps into the room. Swirling the cape with the continual flame spell on the lining around to her back so the "flames" swirl up around her, she coils her whip and puts it on her belt. Looking at the target sitting on the bed, she points the glove in her other hand and says "So, do we talk? or do we move on to other options?" Target sees a Cheliaxian woman, clothed in fire & smoke. Intimadate check? 35... Target says: "ah... what was it you wanted to talk about? I's can be Real Helpful, yes I's can!"
And the Bard player will be impressed - and maybe even try that (or something like it) at his next table.
I mean we do this all the time with combat right?
Player A: "I got a 33 to hit with my Kopesh..."
Player B: "and my song adds +2 to hit and damage!"
Player A: "35 to hit then"
and which is a better judge response?
#1 Judge: "so, how about some bullet points on how you do that? Give me something to work with here... do you do a sideswing thrust, or overhand chop? 'Butterfly in Flight' with a 'Stong Breeze' finish? what? give me something to work with here! and you Bard, how are you boosting? A rousing martial tone? or what?"
#2 Judge: "With the rousing strains of the Bards 'Ballad of Fire', you locate a weakness in the monsters steal hard carapace to thrust your sword into it's thorax. Greenish ickier flows down your blade, and with a savage twist you recover your blade and resume your guarded stance by the door - blocking the beast from reaching your companions.
(normally we get something like Judge: "Ok you hit, what's the damage?")
so, can I have a bonus on my:
- "To Hit" and "Damage" rolls if I actually do demonstrate a fencing routine?
- day job rolls as a Cook, if I bring cookies to the game (something I have done for my character with profession cook)
- Disable Device roll for actually having lock picks, and demonstrating how they work?
- Knowledge rolls for being able to quote from the Bestiary entry about the monster we encountered?
as long as I do the above "In Character" - with a "Character Voice"?

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reposting something that I found on another thread that just fits perfect here...
It has always struck me that most of the time diplomacy role-playing is done completely backwards.The numbers and the dice rolling are the mechanics of the results and laws of the game - and how people interact with the game is based on the results of those numbers.
Not with diplomacy (or bluff to a lesser extent)
If I rolled a 4 on diplomacy, shouldn't I then roleplay being undiplomatic? or bluffing poorly?
If a rolled a 21, shouldn't I roleplay being more effective?
Why is it people are expecting the good or bad argument before the roll - shouldn't how good or bad the roll tell us how to roleplay the effects.
perhaps we should try doing the "Roll" first, then "Playing the Role" after. You know, making the one we have some control over (how well we play the role) fit the circumstances rather than splitting the two then having the judge "adjust" the totals to fit the result.

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Ok, this is going to be a bit crude - maybe a borderline rant...feel free to skip it
So, it appears we are back to giving rewards (and punishment) for players to play the way we want (or don't want) them to.
** spoiler omitted **...
Ok, half of your rant in "a shy diplomat" is mostly in your head, not anything the DM is doing. Trying to get people to ROLE PLAY in a ROLE PLAYING GAME is part of the DM's job. I'm sorry the guy taking the time to buy, read, prep, and give up their chance to play to run a game for everyone else didn't also stop by the community college for 16 credits of social work while they were at it, but you are expecting WAY too much from some random guy trying to play a game.

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I reckon those charisma challenged players might try shying away from charisma based classes. If your character is a dilpomancer but the player is a shrinking violet then maybe I can interest you in playing a barbarian.
hmmm....
" I reckon those (insert descriptive type) players might try shying away from (insert descriptive type) classes. If your character is a XXXX but the player is a YYYY then maybe I can interest you in playing a YYYY."
"...(nerdy bookish type) players might try shying away from (physical type) classes. If your character is a barbarian but the player is a Nerd then maybe I can interest you in playing a wizard..."
are we really advising players to avoid characters that aren't like their real life selves?

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are we really advising players to avoid characters that aren't like their real life selves?
Thats a false analogy, the game does a great job simulating combat through game mechanics so those not trained in combat can act combative. However this is a game that involves Role Playing, simulating a character, and while the game mechanics can minimize human interaction to a role of the dice, it can't simulate that. So yeah, please don't play the party face if you can't do the minimum amount of verbalization to make role play encounter viable. There have been far too many times where I have had a juicy scene deflated by a player who simply rolls their d20+max'd out bonuses to reduce that scene to a second grade math problem.

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nosig wrote:Thats a false analogy, the game does a great job simulating combat through game mechanics so those not trained in combat can act combative. However this is a game that involves Role Playing, simulating a character, and while the game mechanics can minimize human interaction to a role of the dice, it can't simulate that. So yeah, please don't play the party face if you can't do the minimum amount of verbalization to make role play encounter viable. There have been far too many times where I have had a juicy scene deflated by a player who simply rolls their d20+max'd out bonuses to reduce that scene to a second grade math problem.are we really advising players to avoid characters that aren't like their real life selves?
That's the nature of the beast when it comes to Org. Play, sometimes you will have that sort of player at your table, you still have to do your best to give them a good time. If you can't do that, then maybe a home game might be more your speed.
To reiterate what The Fox said, people should play the character they want to play. They also shouldn't be made to feel bad for it. Don't like it? That's fine, you don't have to like every PC that shows up at your table. But as a GM you still have to suck it up and try to show them a good time for that scenario.

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nosig wrote:Thats a false analogy, the game does a great job simulating combat through game mechanics so those not trained in combat can act combative. However this is a game that involves Role Playing, simulating a character, and while the game mechanics can minimize human interaction to a role of the dice, it can't simulate that. So yeah, please don't play the party face if you can't do the minimum amount of verbalization to make role play encounter viable. There have been far too many times where I have had a juicy scene deflated by a player who simply rolls their d20+max'd out bonuses to reduce that scene to a second grade math problem.are we really advising players to avoid characters that aren't like their real life selves?
old guy rambling - feel free to skip this - it's just my opinion:
I can recall a very strange game back in LG days, in Year 2 I think (that would be 2002), The judge was very much a Role Player in the old school (kind of like me), as were several of us older players at the table. Realize that the Skill system for the "social" parts of the game was kind of new at this time. The majority of us at the table were kind of old school in fact. The first combat encounter had just been triggered (the "token thug encounter" that often started LG mods), and we were getting ready to roll Initiative when the judge said, "just mark of a spell or two and a few charges on a cure stick and we'll get on with the rest of the scenario". The old guy Ranger at the table chimed in with the statement "and I'll mark off 3 rounds worth of arrows...". This sort of set the mood of the game...
And that's the way the rest of that game went mostly.... we just hand waved most of the combats (including the final Boss encounter, which was a very cinematic story mostly guided by the judge with input from each of the players) and Role Played with silly voices and much in character play, without ever touching a die. No need to roll dice, we just "role played" the game. Encounters became social events rather than combats - combats were just hand waved with the "resource tax" and "social skill rolls" became full blown talking encounters (with no rolls actually done) - in other words the mod (which is what LG scenarios were called) was Role Played out, with little or no dice rolling by the players. Combats were hand waved for the most part, though a few were just described in flowing prose, both by the judge and by the players. We did have one younger player who was very upset about it... but then everyone knew he was the local "dice cheat" and the rest of us tended to just ignore him during the game anyway. (I like to think I am more mature now and would try to include him more in the group if it happened again.... but he really was a bit of a twit.)
SO - put yourself into a game like that. NOW imagine that the judge is a Roll Player who plays for the combat - and the players want him to "just skip past that - I mean, it's not like we can't handle this! Come on! They are just nameless thugs!...." (Cue scene from Austin Powers Gold Member).
Hopefully, as a judge, I am going to be able to give my players - be they Roll Player or Role Player or some mix of those things (and most of us are some mix of those two things) - a game they will enjoy. And I'm going to try to enjoy it myself (which should be easy, as I have the most fun as a judge when my players are having fun). And try to do all this while remaining true to PFSOP and "run as written". And rolling the skill checks with dice. And letting the dice decide the actually outcome, not my acting skills.
And I try really hard not to tell (even non-verbally) my players that they are not having fun the right way. I try real hard not to tell people what, or how to play. What is fun for them might not be what is fun for me... in fact, I can look around the board and know that all of you don't play this game the same way I do, or even the way I like to... but that's ok. We all can have fun at the table. In our own way...

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tl;dr
On the flip side, nosig, you have to recognize that just as some players are better/more comfortable with one style of play over another so are some judges. And when it comes to skipping combats I never skip non-optional encounters (I say encounters instead of combats) unless there is a very good reason (time issues, etc.).
At my tables, I want some idea of what the PC's are trying to achieve ("I use X" is usually not enough, but "I use X to do Y" is fine). If the PC's want to RP it out that's fine, if not, that's fine too.

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There's no reason the role playing has to stop when the minimat comes out. If the thugs are beneath you, disarm them, spend rounds spanking them , bulrush them into a barrel of kippers, taunt them, spend 3 rounds on full defense giving him tips on his footwork, offer him a membership card, hand him a bag of gold and tell them to go home to their wife...
(most of these have happened in games i've been at...)

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nosig wrote:Ok, this is going to be a bit crude - maybe a borderline rant...feel free to skip it
So, it appears we are back to giving rewards (and punishment) for players to play the way we want (or don't want) them to.
** spoiler omitted **...
Ok, half of your rant in "a shy diplomat" is mostly in your head, not anything the DM is doing. Trying to get people to ROLE PLAY in a ROLE PLAYING GAME is part of the DM's job. I'm sorry the guy taking the time to buy, read, prep, and give up their chance to play to run a game for everyone else didn't also stop by the community college for 16 credits of social work while they were at it, but you are expecting WAY too much from some random guy trying to play a game.
I'd like to address a very important point I think both sides to this argument are missing.
Some encounters require certain things be brought up, discussed, questioned, or mentioned to trigger certain responces. Some are good, some are bad, some grant a bonus or penalty, some grant boons and some might work towards the second prestige. We can't just assume the shy person will bring these points up, just because they are shy.
Important note: not everyone is or can be a masterclass actor, professional level improvisor, or extremely lugubrious. So as a GM it is important to read your players and create an exchange method they feel comfortable with.
There are ways to elicit the info the scenario is looking for, without expecting professional actor level dialogue. If the person freezes or is obviously uncomfortable, you can ask leading questions.
GM: What would you like to say?
Player: Um (looking uncomfortable)
GM: That's ok, just let me know what you are trying to convince them to do, or are you just trying to be chummy?
Player: The second one.
GM: Great, is there any specific thing you want to ask or bring up in your conversation?
Player: I'll mention the captain of the guards name.
GM: Perfect, go ahead and roll.
The exchange can just be a question and answer period where the player explains thier goal and if the bring up anything specific. Or it can be completely in character. Either is fine and will help players who can do or prefer one but hate the other to enjoy the exchange more than if you force them to do something they can't or are uncomfortable with.
However, "I roll diplomacy!" Without any context is not appropriate. You are putting all the onus on the GM to make decisions for your character: motive, goal, process. And if he gets it wrong, then the game halts when you either retcon or figure out what really happened.
While I completely agree that any player should be allowed to play any character they wish, a player who is completely unwilling, for whatever reason, to have a conversation with the GM about motive, goal and process probably should pick a different role.

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nosig wrote:tl;drOn the flip side, nosig, you have to recognize that just as some players are better/more comfortable with one style of play over another so are some judges. And when it comes to skipping combats I never skip non-optional encounters (I say encounters instead of combats) unless there is a very good reason (time issues, etc.).
At my tables, I want some idea of what the PC's are trying to achieve ("I use X" is usually not enough, but "I use X to do Y" is fine). If the PC's want to RP it out that's fine, if not, that's fine too.
I am sorry, I think I gave the wrong impression in my "old guy" story above. The encounters were not skipped - they were just converted from dice rolling combats to talking descriptive combats. The players RPed the encounters (almost all of them) without actually rolling dice. The Ranger would state that he "was a blur of motion, rapidly firing arrows into the creature, many of which shattered upon impact - but those few that found weak points crippled the creature, allowing the Fighter to step inside it's guard and strike the killing blow! (mark off 9 more arrows)".
The game just became a collective story session, rather than a combat simulation decided by random dice rolls.
In other words, a Role Playing game more than a Roll Playing game.
:)

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nosig wrote:tl;drOn the flip side, nosig, you have to recognize that just as some players are better/more comfortable with one style of play over another so are some judges. And when it comes to skipping combats I never skip non-optional encounters (I say encounters instead of combats) unless there is a very good reason (time issues, etc.).
At my tables, I want some idea of what the PC's are trying to achieve ("I use X" is usually not enough, but "I use X to do Y" is fine). If the PC's want to RP it out that's fine, if not, that's fine too.
Oh yes, (at least I think I understand you) I think I do "recognize that just as some players are better/more comfortable with one style of play over another so are some judges", in fact I normally just count the judge as one of the players (though a very important one, as he runs all the world that the other players do not run).
I have a good friend of mine who often runs rangers. I noticed that he often had an AC that... gets clobbered. I offered sympathy at the way the judge seemed to be targeting his AC after a game, only to have my friend explain that that is why the AC was there - to give the Judge a sense of accomplishment - I.E. provide the judge with some fun too.
It is best to ensure that all the players (judge included) are enjoying the game, otherwise why do it?
Be that Roll Playing, or Role Playing, or (like it is often) some mix of those two.
If it's not fun, don't do it. Life is too short for bad gaming.

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UndeadMitch wrote:nosig wrote:tl;drOn the flip side, nosig, you have to recognize that just as some players are better/more comfortable with one style of play over another so are some judges. And when it comes to skipping combats I never skip non-optional encounters (I say encounters instead of combats) unless there is a very good reason (time issues, etc.).
At my tables, I want some idea of what the PC's are trying to achieve ("I use X" is usually not enough, but "I use X to do Y" is fine). If the PC's want to RP it out that's fine, if not, that's fine too.
I am sorry, I think I gave the wrong impression in my "old guy" story above. The encounters were not skipped - they were just converted from dice rolling combats to talking descriptive combats. The players RPed the encounters (almost all of them) without actually rolling dice. The Ranger would state that he "was a blur of motion, rapidly firing arrows into the creature, many of which shattered upon impact - but those few that found weak points crippled the creature, allowing the Fighter to step inside it's guard and strike the killing blow! (mark off 9 more arrows)".
The game just became a collective story session, rather than a combat simulation decided by random dice rolls.
In other words, a Role Playing game more than a Roll Playing game.
:)
I'm not at all sure that turning PFS combats into a shared narrative is appropriate.

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I'd say we were lucky he didn't come back to bother us, but he was such a poorly built NPC that it wouldn't have made a difference.
I resent that! I could have hung out in another room and sent wave after wave of rubbish earth elementals at you through the walls. Of course I would have had to shift back to my normal shape because level 13 druids don't need natural spell apparently...

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I resent that! I could have hung out in another room and sent wave after wave of rubbish earth elementals at you through the walls. Of course I would have had to shift back to my normal shape because level 13 druids don't need natural spell apparently...
And then you'd have been subject to my Boneshatter, of which I certainly had plenty left to use. :)

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TOZ wrote:I'd say we were lucky he didn't come back to bother us, but he was such a poorly built NPC that it wouldn't have made a difference.I resent that! I could have hung out in another room and sent wave after wave of rubbish earth elementals at you through the walls. Of course I would have had to shift back to my normal shape because level 13 druids don't need natural spell apparently...
They didn't give him wildspell but remembered to give him terran as a langauage?

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so, can I have a bonus on my:
- "To Hit" and "Damage" rolls if I actually do demonstrate a fencing routine?
- day job rolls as a Cook, if I bring cookies to the game (something I have done for my character with profession cook)
- Disable Device roll for actually having lock picks, and demonstrating how they work?
- Knowledge rolls for being able to quote from the Bestiary entry about the monster we encountered?
as long as I do the above "In Character" - with a "Character Voice"?
I am looking to give players modifiers to their roles. If I have a vain PC and the players says I want to use diplomacy and stroke that guys ego to get info from him. I will give them a modifier. I do not require them to role play to get the bonus.
Just like in combat when you move your character into a flank position to attack I want your strategy in the conversation. I am not the pressing DM making you role play and say word for word what your character says. If they have trouble I will quickly help them as well suggesting things. Conversations are just as complex as combat, and I want to represent that.
I have seen internet build characters that have great combat potential played absolutely foolishly in combat and make little impact because of it. So having a character with strong stats does not mean auto success. The same should go something I rule just as complex.

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UndeadMitch wrote:nosig wrote:tl;drOn the flip side, nosig, you have to recognize that just as some players are better/more comfortable with one style of play over another so are some judges. And when it comes to skipping combats I never skip non-optional encounters (I say encounters instead of combats) unless there is a very good reason (time issues, etc.).
At my tables, I want some idea of what the PC's are trying to achieve ("I use X" is usually not enough, but "I use X to do Y" is fine). If the PC's want to RP it out that's fine, if not, that's fine too.
I am sorry, I think I gave the wrong impression in my "old guy" story above. The encounters were not skipped - they were just converted from dice rolling combats to talking descriptive combats. The players RPed the encounters (almost all of them) without actually rolling dice. The Ranger would state that he "was a blur of motion, rapidly firing arrows into the creature, many of which shattered upon impact - but those few that found weak points crippled the creature, allowing the Fighter to step inside it's guard and strike the killing blow! (mark off 9 more arrows)".
The game just became a collective story session, rather than a combat simulation decided by random dice rolls.
In other words, a Role Playing game more than a Roll Playing game.
:)
Unfortunately i have to deal with such ideas of roleplaying combined with utter dislike for rules quite often. I can assure you, this is actually not Pathfinder and especially not Pathfinder Society.
I would not call that roleplaying either. It´s often used to anticipate any rules and a total entitlement to troll GMs and empower players to influence the story however they want it. There are several other games which do that, but i hav never seen such a game played to its actual rules nor succeed on a longer campaign. Most somehow just stopped to go on after some meetings for pretty similar reasons.
Andrew has it right when he calls it a shared narrative, i would call it a storytelling focus game though, what follows a completely different logic than a roleplaying game.
One of the main differences is that players get often to make up part of the world, instead of "only" interacting with the world, and if there are rules at all, they are very dictated by whatever is seen as "awesome" or heavily bent.
While i like telling a good story as a GM and letting players participate in different ways, i really don´t enjoy that way of gaming. Most plots never work out at all and any prep is in vain. It has also a lot more to do with pleasing the whims of players and playing impro theatre than anything else. So either you get into conflicts and discussions because people don´t like what the GM just decided and told, not letting their wild imaginations work out, or it´s mutual shoulder rubbing all evening long.
That´s actually the point why there are rules and dice, to decide such things and give a bit of chance and fairness. Unfortunately often mistaken as another possibility to get into conflicts and discussions by rules lawyering.

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There are scenarios that specifically call out +s and -s for what your player/character says to the character.
How else do you think my 5 Charisma Dwarf Barbarian has succeeded TWICE in DC 20+ Diplomacy checks?
Bonus for being a dwarf. Check
Bonus for speaking in Dwarven. Check
Bonus for saying we are here to help. Check
Bonus for trying (just trying, mind you, not necessarily succeeding) to explain what was going on. Check.

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nosig wrote:Ok, half of your rant in "a shy diplomat" is mostly in your head, not anything the DM is doing. Trying to get people to ROLE PLAY in a ROLE PLAYING GAME is part of the DM's job. I'm sorry the guy taking the time to buy, read, prep, and give up their chance to play to run a game for everyone else didn't also stop by the community college for 16 credits of social work while they were at it, but you are expecting WAY too much from some random guy trying to play a game.Ok, this is going to be a bit crude - maybe a borderline rant...feel free to skip it
So, it appears we are back to giving rewards (and punishment) for players to play the way we want (or don't want) them to.
** spoiler omitted **...
Excuse me, but it is NOT the GM's responsibility to make people role-play. It is up to the person themselves whether they can or will role-play or not.
I spent 10 years with a group that constantly irritated me by trying to make me role-play to their standards. If not for the era (1980s, no online stuff) and the dearth of other local RPG opportunities, I would have left them.
Nowadays, I am a PFS GM. I am NOT, absolutely NOT, a heavy duty RP type GM. I don't use much in the way of funny voices. I avoid, when I can, the weird "Let's have our characters have a romance" stuff, especially if the player is also male. Makes me, at best, uncomfortable.
I do NOT, absolutely do NOT, force anyone to play out what their character does, whether in-combat or out-of-combat, before letting them roll the dice. You want to try and schmooze the guard? Roll your Diplomacy, if telling the truth. Bluff, if lying. Intimidate, if trying to bully them. Same goes for Aid Another attempts, whether it is to Diplomacy, AC, or to hit. "I am trying to help John deal with Kevin."
In the game I am running online today, I will probably have to sob, verbally cringe, and whine at some point in the game, as there is an NPC whose interactions run that way. Then again, the players might miss out on finding him. Doesn't hurt my feelings either way.
If Da'Tunga lives long enough to have a turn, I will probably RP his vocals. That can be fun. Not a big deal if he dies quick, like he does all too often.
But, seriously, if someone just is there to roll the dice, you have no right to penalize him because he has fun a different way than you do. Nor do you have the right or responsibility to say, "You shouldn't be playing a Bard/Cleric/Paladin." Or whatever class the player wants to play.
I have run for someone running a Barbarian who never Raged. Never. Is that wrong?
IMO, BadWrongFun is forcing someone to try and have YOUR fun, not theirs. Let them play the game the way they want, as long as they abide by the real rules.

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But, seriously, if someone just is there to roll the dice, you have no right to penalize him because he has fun a different way than you do. Nor do you have the right or responsibility to say, "You shouldn't be playing a Bard/Cleric/Paladin." Or whatever class the player wants to play.
This is a good point. However, keep in mind, if the encounter calls for a social encounter, and either certain things needed to be mentioned (a name, a race, speak in a particular language, a specific questions, reveal specific knowledge, etc.) or done, then the player needs to at the very least give a mechanical description of what they want to talk about, what they are mentioning, and what they are doing.
"I will talk to the guard and mention that I'm a pathfinder and ask him about the weird gold piece I found."
Is completely acceptable in lieu of having a big huge role-played discussion. But as a GM you can't assume they are saying certain things, or you are either penalizing or giving a reward when the player isn't doing something the scenario specifically calls out.
Fine, don't speak in character with a different voice and have an actual realistic dialogue with the NPC. That's perfectly ok if you aren't comfortable with that. But you gotta tell me what you are doing, how you are doing it, and what you hope to accomplish.
Would you agree?

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kinevon wrote:But, seriously, if someone just is there to roll the dice, you have no right to penalize him because he has fun a different way than you do. Nor do you have the right or responsibility to say, "You shouldn't be playing a Bard/Cleric/Paladin." Or whatever class the player wants to play.
This is a good point. However, keep in mind, if the encounter calls for a social encounter, and either certain things needed to be mentioned (a name, a race, speak in a particular language, a specific questions, reveal specific knowledge, etc.) or done, then the player needs to at the very least give a mechanical description of what they want to talk about, what they are mentioning, and what they are doing.
"I will talk to the guard and mention that I'm a pathfinder and ask him about the weird gold piece I found."
Is completely acceptable in lieu of having a big huge role-played discussion. But as a GM you can't assume they are saying certain things, or you are either penalizing or giving a reward when the player isn't doing something the scenario specifically calls out.
Fine, don't speak in character with a different voice and have an actual realistic dialogue with the NPC. That's perfectly ok if you aren't comfortable with that. But you gotta tell me what you are doing, how you are doing it, and what you hope to accomplish.
Would you agree?
Not fully.
If the player says, "My PC is trying to schmooze the guard." that is what happens. If he mentions, or someone else in the party mentions, showing X, doing Y, speaking in tongues, what-have-you, any appropriate modifiers will apply.
But I won't penalize someone for something if it is not mentioned as causing a penalty in the scenario.
If the VC says, "Don't mention you are Pathfinders." and they do, there may be a penalty, but it is something they were warned about, and is mentioned as a point in the scenario, not a sneak penalty applied by GM fiat.
If the player says his PC does something of benefit, then a circumstance bonus may be applied. Which is usually what those items you mentioned, like speaking an appropriate language, usually say they are.
If you try ot open a dialogue to someone who only speaks X, you aren't gonna get far if you don't speak X, as well. Dwarven, Aquan, Terran, and other languages have come into play. Various ancient languages are useful, in other circumstances, where knowing them gives a bonus to deciphering something.
But I don't require you to actually speak Elven or Dwarvish in real life.

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Andrew Christian wrote:kinevon wrote:But, seriously, if someone just is there to roll the dice, you have no right to penalize him because he has fun a different way than you do. Nor do you have the right or responsibility to say, "You shouldn't be playing a Bard/Cleric/Paladin." Or whatever class the player wants to play.
This is a good point. However, keep in mind, if the encounter calls for a social encounter, and either certain things needed to be mentioned (a name, a race, speak in a particular language, a specific questions, reveal specific knowledge, etc.) or done, then the player needs to at the very least give a mechanical description of what they want to talk about, what they are mentioning, and what they are doing.
"I will talk to the guard and mention that I'm a pathfinder and ask him about the weird gold piece I found."
Is completely acceptable in lieu of having a big huge role-played discussion. But as a GM you can't assume they are saying certain things, or you are either penalizing or giving a reward when the player isn't doing something the scenario specifically calls out.
Fine, don't speak in character with a different voice and have an actual realistic dialogue with the NPC. That's perfectly ok if you aren't comfortable with that. But you gotta tell me what you are doing, how you are doing it, and what you hope to accomplish.
Would you agree?
Not fully.
If the player says, "My PC is trying to schmooze the guard." that is what happens. If he mentions, or someone else in the party mentions, showing X, doing Y, speaking in tongues, what-have-you, any appropriate modifiers will apply.
But I won't penalize someone for something if it is not mentioned as causing a penalty in the scenario.
If the VC says, "Don't mention you are Pathfinders." and they do, there may be a penalty, but it is something they were warned about, and is mentioned as a point in the scenario, not a sneak penalty applied by GM fiat.
If the player says his PC does something...
I am unclear how anything you just said disagrees with anything I said.

KenderKin |
This is a hotly debated topic. Often seen around old school gamers in particular. People sometimes fail to appreciate the learning curve that goes into becoming a roll player versus roleplaying.
In the beginning you see new players asking question, trying to figure things out and even talking about their characters in the third person, rather than roleplaying the character.
Player: "Bob the barbarian tries to chat up the town guard to see if they let him in"
Diplomacy1d20 ⇒ 3
Or
Player: I try to just walk into town and see if the guards try and stop me...
DM: The guards move to block your path, the taller one asks. "Welcome, state the purpose of your visit"
Player: "Beer, can you tell me who has the best ale?"
Version 2 is my preference and my expectation that players would be learning and moving towards doing more of.

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Version 2 is my preference and my expectation that players would be learning and moving towards doing more of.
No. Its a PREFERENCE. Something that can greatly vary regionally, by location, or even by individual. When you say you should be learning to do it one way, you're saying that that way is the right way and its NOT. Its a preference. You can't expect someone to do it that way no matter how long they've been playing.

KenderKin |
Version one is not roleplaying you are not playing the role of Bob the barbarian! This is where you start the process experienced players and DM's should be modeling and asking questions. What does Bob say to the guards?
The balance is that your job is to figure out what your character would do and say in given circumstances.
Does Bob the barbarian have a battle cry? If so what is it?
A word? A scream? A growl?
Sometimes you don't have to say anything...
Intimidate for example...
Bob gives Conan the stink eye!
Intimidate 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (4) + 9 = 13

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Playing in third person is completely fine. Always.
A well told and thought out third person perspective is a lot better than a cheap and quick first person perspective that sticks to clichees, etc.
I also strongly disagree that everyone should be free to play everything, but for different reasons.
It´s not cool to play the clown and take lots of game time, nor is it cool to play a wordless one man army and run the scenario alone.
It´s 100% in the right and responsibility of the game master to reign people in there.
For me Pathfinder is half half.
50% roll play, 50% role play, and it´s best when those parts support each other.
How that exactly is done is up to personal preferences though and those can´t be jugded.

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Appropriate ways to roleplay "Bob the Barbarian" in this situation include:
1) mumbling in pidgin
2) speaking eloquently
3) pantomime (Bob's a mute)
4) chalkboard (Bob's a mute)
5) not using words with more than 4 letters
6) always lying
7) sometimes lying
8) always telling the truth
9) pointing to the party face
10) grunting at the party face
11) being the party face
12) in a high squeaking voice
13) in a deep throaty voice
14) ventriloquist dummy
15) attack the guard
16) pretend to be mentally insane
17) actually be mentally insane
18) nothing but ribbits and croaks
19) awkwardly petting the guard's head
20) with a stutter
21) schizophrenic
22) bribery
23) blackmail
24) admit to committing a crime
25) rob the guard
26) pretend you're fleeing robbers
27) tell a joke
28) ask the guard to tell you a joke
29) dress up as another guard
30) just roll a dice
31) however the player of "Bob" wants to roleplay

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Appropriate ways to roleplay "Bob the Barbarian" in this situation include:
1) mumbling in pidgin
2) speaking eloquently
3) pantomime (Bob's a mute)
4) chalkboard (Bob's a mute)
5) not using words with more than 4 letters
6) always lying
7) sometimes lying
8) always telling the truth
9) pointing to the party face
10) grunting at the party face
11) being the party face
12) in a high squeaking voice
13) in a deep throaty voice
14) ventriloquist dummy
15) attack the guard
16) pretend to be mentally insane
17) actually be mentally insane
18) nothing but ribbits and croaks
19) awkwardly petting the guard's head
20) with a stutter
21) schizophrenic
22) bribery
23) blackmail
24) admit to committing a crime
25) rob the guard
26) pretend you're fleeing robbers
27) tell a joke
28) ask the guard to tell you a joke
29) dress up as another guard
30) just roll a dice
31) however the player of "Bob" wants to roleplay
If you'd capped it at 20 you would have had a table for roll players to use...Now they have to use hero labs (or equivalent) to roll a d31