Sorry, I don't see where you're coming from. We'll just have to agree to disagree, especially as it's all entirely academic anyway, and someone even less fit or warrior-like is playing Wonder Woman.
OK fair enough. My point is that given the amount of time I spend around real 'warrior women', I just have to face roll every time I see some fluffy chick 'playing' at 'being badass', when they clearly aren't. It comes across to me with the same sense of gravitas of a little kid dressing up as a princess - cute and funny, but can't really be taken seriously, except in this case its adults and either we have to be patronised and play along with 'you go grrrl', or be patronising and brush it off as nonsense. A lose lose situation.
I think that's part of the problem - we have actors 'playing' at being tough, and thus lacking credibility or authenticity (and obviously so) as opposed to believable people in the roles who might lack some of the 'emotionality' - which frankly is less jarring to me.
I point to Felicia Day as a prime example of 'stick to comedy'.
Shifty ... it was supposed to be a one-liner, not disrespect towards a person who I'm certain is a capable Marine.
Oh it's ok, I fully grasped the cheekiness behind the comment, hence the facepalm wasn't followed up by a plaintive cry about objectification etc. Now you mention it, I am in agreement, however it wasn't actually THE point I was attempting to highlight.
Now if its the flicker of intelligence you want in the eyes then fair enough, but frankly I don't think that the Hollywood starlets convincingly carry off the cold thousand yard stare we would expect/
The problem is that people, men or women, who choose to become fighters cannot be relied upon to have acting skill, just as the vice versa is often true. And if I am watching a movie, while I want the casting to be somewhat competent, my primary expectation is to see a good actor.
I do not expect Hollywood actors to look like realistic anythings. I do expect them to at least TRY to be sure badass characters have some muscle on them but no, they're not going to look like an actual soldier -- but I do not watch a Hollywood made superhero movie for realism. I can draw a line at "convincing enough for fantasy" and leave it there and be satisfied.
If they can find someone who is a real fighter and can act very well, that's great, but highly unlikely. (mentions of Gina Carano aside.)
I know the topic has drifted somewhat, but the absolute last thing I want from a Wonder Woman actress is a "cold thousand yard(?year?) stare".However appropriate that might be for other warrior characters.
I am not sure why this would be a problem for Wonder Woman, is she supposed to be a bit of a cupcake? She's an Amazonian warrior woman, why wouldn't she have the convincing presence right down pat?
Gal Godot served with the Israeli military for two years.
As a Fitness Instructor...let's not get carried away.
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I am not sure why this would be a problem for Wonder Woman, is she supposed to be a bit of a cupcake? She's an Amazonian warrior woman, why wouldn't she have the convincing presence right down pat?
I know the topic has drifted somewhat, but the absolute last thing I want from a Wonder Woman actress is a "cold thousand yard(?year?) stare".However appropriate that might be for other warrior characters.
It's the cold distance part that I wouldn't want.
Compassionate. Inspiring. I can even handle ruthless when needed. Or furious rage, when sufficiently justified.
Cold is out.I have no idea why you thought "bit of a cupcake". Or that a "cold thousand yard stare" is required for the convincing presence.
I'm with you, thejeff. I mean, surely she should have a convincing presence, but convincing does not mean cold or hard. Especially as the Amazons that Wonder Woman comes from, per Marston's original vision, were Amazons in the service of Aphrodite. They trained to fight to protect Paradise Island, but they also prized love above all virtues.
Wonder Woman first and foremost is love. She loves so much she will easily fight to the death to protect the things she loves. But she absolutely MUST exude warmth and kindness above all things, or she just is not Wonder Woman. Period.
Wonder Woman is also confident, determined, and fearless. Those things are not antithetical to love and warmth -- indeed, I firmly believe true confidence and fearlessness can only come from love; anyone else is faking it.
Wonder Woman inspires people precisely because they trust her--they know she will not turn her heart against them, and she will do what it takes to help and protect them.
I think it's sad, based on what I've seen in many action movies, that many in Hollywood think you can either be badass and a good fighter, OR you can be nice and kind and sisterly/brotherly. It is entirely possible to be a sisterly badass. And I would hold that such people are amongst our real life military personnel, very often people who work hard to help others and are "family people."
In short and oversimplified terms, a lotta people can be trained to kick ass, but you've gotta be able to carry off the true humanity behind this smile.
It's the cold distance part that I wouldn't want.
Compassionate. Inspiring. I can even handle ruthless when needed. Or furious rage, when sufficiently justified.
Cold is out.
Then I guess we are on different wavelengths, because when I look at an actor or actress trying to play some kind of warrior role the first thing I look at is whether or not they can convince me that they are someone who has the right 'spirit' or whatever other term you wish to use.
If they don't manage to convince me, and just come across as a person 'play acting' the part then I can't suspend disbelief long enough to get into the movie as the 'farce of personality' is just so jarring - like watching some old skool movie where people are playing roles in blackface.
So whether its the thousand yard stare, the fighters cocky swagger, whether its the disciplined bearing or the general force of personality - when these starlets (and stars - looking at you Tom Cruise) play-act on screen I just have to choose between laughing at them or rolling my eyes.
Now you guys might not pick up on that, which is fine, but that's certainly not how it is for me, which is why I don't bother with many action movies any more because they are laughable - from the way things go bang (the rolling petrol explosions of claymores in Commando) to the cheesy and unrealistic fight scenes. To do it properly isn't such a hard stretch, so why not do it properly and kick these over-preened pretenders to the curb and use something with some actual depth.
Wonder Woman is supposed to be some kind of warrior - not an acting school drama queen.
The "real" Wonder Woman doesn't have that look. ]
Which makes about 0 sense, where is this supported?
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As a Fitness Instructor...let's not get carried away.Gal Godot served with the Israeli military for two years.
Many Europeans serve two years in their respective militaries automatically (French people, for instance). That doesn't mean that every single person from those countries is automatically going to have a particularly super-heroic build (or be some sort of memetic badass).
And after a few Batman movies and Superman movies where the main character appears to be a constipated robot incapable of having ever in their life cracked a genuine smile, I'm pretty sure I don't want Wonder Woman to be yet another oh-so-terribly-serious constipated robot.
Why bother casting an *actor* at all, if the role is going to be 'stand there looking like an angry storefront mannequin, and for the love of Zeus, don't *act.*'
Why bother casting an *actor* at all, if the role is going to be 'stand there looking like an angry storefront mannequin, and for the love of Zeus, don't *act.*'
*Act* as what though? Their *act* is half the problem, because so often they have to *act* like a badass but they fail dismally. This is the problem, they actually can't *act* more often than not, because they come off looking ridiculous.
can we just stop having Ms Berry and the ever laughable Angelina 'acting badass' sometime soon? Dont get me started on Lucy Liu and Jennifer Garner.
I thought Linda Hamilton did a great job back when, as did Sigourney Weaver, and there have certainly been other but for the love of all that's holy - no more cupcakes. No more female Tom Cruise equivalents.
Again, you're dead on, thejeff. You too, Set. Wonder Woman is a truly strong person, which includes having strength of depth of emotion and kindness, not just some pathetic, repressed, soulless robot.
Warmth is not weakness. Conveying emotion does not mean you are a "drama queen." Kindness is not antithetical to what a warrior should be capable of. And few real "warriors" (soldiers, law enforcers) I've ever known were cocky or cold. That in itself is an overdone archetype perpetuated by Hollywood.
Frankly, I think she'd arguably make a great paladin.
And there lies our problem I suppose - look how long and heated those Paladin threads get :p
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And there lies our problem I suppose - look how long and heated those Paladin threads get :pFrankly, I think she'd arguably make a great paladin.
"Does a paladin fall if she snaps Max Lord's neck?"
Again, you're dead on, thejeff. You too, Set. Wonder Woman is a truly strong person, which includes having strength of depth of emotion and kindness, not just some pathetic, repressed, soulless robot.
Warmth is not weakness. Conveying emotion does not mean you are a "drama queen." Kindness is not antithetical to what a warrior should be capable of. And few real "warriors" (soldiers, law enforcers) I've ever known were cocky or cold. That in itself is an overdone archetype perpetuated by Hollywood.
Samurai
He had it coming. One of the few storylines I truly enjoyed with a lot of twists and turns. It had some major flaws, mind, but that wasn't one of them. An unpopular opinion in some circles but its my two cents.
He had it coming. One of the few storylines I truly enjoyed with a lot of twists and turns. It had some major flaws, mind, but that wasn't one of them. An unpopular opinion in some circles but its my two cents.
I was just joking about one controversial subject on the internet combined with another. (That's why it was in quotes.)
But FWIW I agree with you and Jaelithe. I really did not intend to derail the discussion into a review of the OMAC plot.
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She answers some of the concerns. And creates new ones. Myths from 5000 years ago may have had only 1 breast. William Moulton Marston's creations have 2. Wonder Woman is not an ancient myth, she is the creation of a man of the mid-20th century. A little research on his work might be appropriate.
Her comment about Amazons having one breast was in the context of people complaining that an actress playing Wonder Woman should have larger breasts--that people clamoring for "accuracy" in either case is ridiculous. And I agree with her. I never had any problem with her figure, just hoped she would muscle up for the part. I appreciate her comment "I represent the Wonder Women of the new world."
The very short article does not give much time to suggest what kind of research she is doing or not. We can only hope she is, but I don't see anything in the article that suggests she isn't, either.
And in any case, it's the writers we have to hope are doing the research. While it is important that the actress does the research/is familiar with the part/world/universe, they're the ones who ultimately need to get it right even moreso.
And frankly Marston was an interesting fellow but he hasn't written Wonder Woman in more than half a century and the character and the world have moved on. The character has been reinvented and rebooted several times since then. I'd suggest looking at more recent versions.
While things have changed and a variety of takes on Wonder Woman should be considered, I believe it is crucial to understand and believe in Marston's idea of "feminine strength" as embodied by his Wonder Woman, even if it is also crucial to update her for the 21st century. But his vision of Wonder Woman's confidence, love, and honesty is still very core to the best iterations of the character and if you're going to look up Wonder Woman, you may as well look at the original.
But that does not preclude also looking at other versions, of course.
And the most recent versions (Straczynski, New 52) are the ones I'd ignore or study only as "how not to do it."
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One day, I will be able to have a conversation about Marston's role in creating Wonder Woman without people going "BUT BONDAGE..."
*sigh*
Yes, he liked being tied up, tee hee hee. Yes, there was a lot of tied-up imagery in early Wonder Woman comics.... as there was in other early comics too. And present comics for that matter. And actually, the bondage imagery well outlasted Marston's presence or influence on the book. She has a lasso. There is going to be bondage imagery, intentional or no. Get over it.
In other news, Lynda Carter wishes Gal Gadot well.
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Since Snyder is used to plundering Alan Moore, he and the writers could probably find a lot of useful characterization, themes, and ideas from looting (Moore's) excellent Promethea.
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Since Snyder is used to plundering Alan Moore, he and the writers could probably find a lot of useful characterization, themes, and ideas from looting (Moore's) excellent Promethea.
Or his run on Liefield's Glory, which he said was intended to be his homage to WW just as his Supreme was his homage to Superman.
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Apologies for the double post. But my last comment has just gained more weight.
Remember the crashed Kryptonian ship? Guess where the Amazons come from. I imagine there were a handful of survivors, a really short one, one with the same powers as Superman, a robot, the founder of the Amazons, and the direct ancestors of Maul, Warblade, Grifter and Voodoo. (Oh wait, New 52, Voodoo isn't half-Kherubim/Kryptonian.)
I wouldn't be able to emphasize enough that this appears entirely to be speculative in nature and not worth getting worked up about -- posts like the blastr blog bother me because they're designed to get nerds hot and bothered about something that may entirely be nonexistent.
IF it's true, I'll judge it when I see it.
As it is, it would strike me as odd -- the scout ship contained the corpses of fallen survivors. It would also strike me as odd that all the survivors were female, since the Kryptonian crews seemed mixed gender and while they did engineer their different castes, both males and females seem to be produced in all castes (although why they retained sexual dimorphism when they no longer reproduced naturally, Jor and Lara excluded, I don't know, but never mind).
This would be MY speculation if you wanted to try to tie the Amazons to Krypton (and I am not suggesting they should) (and also, as the article suggests, crib from Thor):
- So let's say there were some "ancient Kryptonians." Let's say, oh, at least 12-14 of them. They have great power, so the humans they encounter treat them as gods. Their ship is broken, so they dwell on earth, worshipped by the natives.
- The ancient Kryptonians eventually do run low on life span, even if they've lived for millennia.
- Before they die, some of the nice lady ancient Kryptonians decide to make it up to some powerful women who were subjugated by slavers and rescue them, augment them with their Kryptonian genetics fu with enhanced strength and longevity, and put them on an island, where they leave them the ancient technologies of the Kryptonians to keep out of the hands of the humans they feel are not ready for such power. The women must live in secret to protect this technology. (This goes with some Amazon origins that they have sciences or artifacts from the gods that they keep and guard.) Either they have long lifespans or were given some kind of cloning technology, but since they were all women to start with, they can only produce more women.
- They start paying attention to man's world when they receive Zod's message and become aware of the fight between Superman and Zod, and decide to go investigate Superman by sending a chosen emissary to check him out.
This would make the Amazons effectively human but also explain both their hiding and their unusual abilities, if you didn't want to incorporate in the full on mythical elements. Which, again, I am not saying whether they should or shouldn't but simply that this is how it could be done.
The source of the rumor (now quoted at the bottom of the link in Green Dragon's post) clarifies it was his speculation only, not something gleaned from a script:
In the recent mailbag I did with you all, I speculated on how Goyer/Snyder *might* account for the origins of the Amazons: Decedents of ancient Kryptonian astronauts who were able to create an all-female race due to Kryptonians artificially creating their offspring. It was nothing but a guess -- pure speculation and my opinion -- and nothing more. Now, many outlets have picked up the "story" and have run it as either me claiming it to be fact or me claiming it's "inside info/rumor."
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There was a comedian who said, "Only a woman would think making people tell the truth is a superpower"
Jesus Christ, that's sexist. Wonder Woman was created by William Moulton Marston, a man who evidently had an ongoing obsession with how to force people to tell the truth - his previous invention, no joke, was the polygraph machine!
It can be done with the right talent and care.
Currently it seems like the agenda is as follows -
DC "The world isn't ready for a Wonder Woman movie yet"
Marvel "We have this talking raccoon and a walking tree, let's make a movie!"
Yeah it gives writers the nightmare of sorting through and choosing what material to touch on, knowing that a sizeable portion of the fandom will be displeased no matter what. Do you make a movie based in mythology? A moderns superherione? Touch on her political aspect? Feminism?
Wonder Woman is hard to do because she's supposed to be so many things at once that it becomes a messy jumble. What's really required is actually picking and committing to a cleaned up version the focuses on her esence while discarding the baggage.