When you mention Joss Whedon and casting for Wonder Woman in the same sentence, I suddenly flash back to Gina Torres and her work as Zoe in Firefly. Admittedly, every Wonder Woman up until now has been white, but if we're going to be technical, none of them have looked particularly Greek. ;)
I'd rather see Torres cast as Vixen --- who would be an awesome character to bring to live action. She has a primal quality that I think would suit that character well. Besides, she's already voiced her.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
I'd rather see Torres cast as Vixen --- who would be an awesome character to bring to live action. She has a primal quality that I think would suit that character well. Besides, she's already voiced her.
Amusingly I felt the same way about The Wall and CCH Pounder. :-)
|
I love Gina Torres unreasonably (and watch Suits mostly for her), but she's probably already a little old to be playing Vixen. Same for who would have been my first choice for Vixen after seeing Strange Days, Angela Basset.
Claudia Black has a nice Greek-ish look to her, I think.
All the actors I would pick are probably too old. I really have to keep an eye out for younger actors!
Erica Cerra is crazy pretty, but doesn't really scream 'Amazon' to me... There's also the voice. Like Michelle Forbes, she's got a super-distinctive voice, but sounds less 'resonating timbre' and more 'I smoked like six packs a day back on Paradise Island, and my throat is wrecked...'
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Amusingly Set, one 'Go to' place for young hungry actors was the NZ filmed Power Rangers. When you look through IMDB a lot of them had decent bodies of work down under, and I think jumped at the spandex to be seen by American audiences and casting directors.
My go to girl for black action females is still Kandyse McClure though.
Drifting off topic...
I'm for Rhoda Montemayor for Dr. Light for example.
|
|
Oh, you win all my internets. Kandyse McClure is an awesome choice.
Vixen, IMO, might even be an 'easier' choice for a DC leading lady, since they seem to have no end of problems 'getting' Wonder Woman (and, in their defense, as DeathQuaker enumerated above, she's hard to nail down, since she's been everything to everyone, over the years).
Hawkgirl/woman has to deal with the 'how to make CGI wings not look just terrible,' as well as the misery-go-round of origin issues that come with Hawkman.
Black Canary has been multiple people, and her most iconic costume might not play well in the 21st century. Bonus confusion points if they tried to do a Black Canary movie in the wake of the Arrow series, since the two 'Laurel Lances' would likely be totally different characters played by totally different actresses.
Zatanna, a cooler version of Canary's costume (It's a stripper! In a tophat! Woo?!), and a completely incomprehensible powerset. (Which, to be fair, can be said of any magic-using character, DC or Marvel, since they all turn into deus ex machinas or reality manipulators or whatever due to their ill-defined abilities.)
Kalshane, my apologies. I completely hallucinated that you were responding to me. I honestly have no idea what happened there, except I am taking notes to get a better night's sleep tonight.
Of known actresses to play Wonder Woman, I'm also fond of the choice of Jaime Alexander (although IIRC she said in a recent interview she'd be concerned about them doing a Wonder Woman movie well).
I always feel like for most superheroes, you're usually better off choosing a relative unknown however, who just fits the part the best.
Set, I'm with you -- I think Vixen's on the top of my list for getting her own movie.
I think a Helena Bertinelli Huntress film could also do extraordinarily well--base it on the original monthly and have her focus on fighting the mafia, could be a very good, gritty, noirish crimefighter film that would attract both superhero fans and fans of other action and crime thrillers alike.
I'd also love to see a Birds of Prey film with Oracle and Black Canary, possibly add on Huntress and Lady Blackhawk as well. But I see that as less likely because it's hard to tie in the Batfamily connection. Plus the BoP TV show was so terrible Warner probably would try to avoid it.
For slightly lesser known characters--which occasionally works better for live action adaptations since you have fewer rabid fans dissecting everything--Fire and Ice would maybe make for an interesting movie.
Or Manhunter (Kate Spencer) might be cool.
|
|
I think a Helena Bertinelli Huntress film could also do extraordinarily well--base it on the original monthly and have her focus on fighting the mafia, could be a very good, gritty, noirish crimefighter film that would attract both superhero fans and fans of other action and crime thrillers alike.
I'd also love to see a Birds of Prey film with Oracle and Black Canary, possibly add on Huntress and Lady Blackhawk as well. But I see that as less likely because it's hard to tie in the Batfamily connection. Plus the BoP TV show was so terrible Warner probably would try to avoid it.
I'd want to avoid adding too many of the BoP supporting cast, but Oracle, Canary and Huntress seem kind of necessary, with Lady Blackhawk perhaps showing up later. (Isn't she temporally displaced or something? That's kind of a leap, for a group that's *generally* pretty grounded and 'street-level,' Canary Cry aside.) Similarly, I'm not a huge fan of Katana, as presented. She comes off a bit 'Ethnic Stereotype Lass,' to me. 'Hey kids, I'm Japanese, can't you tell from my katana?' unlike, say, Dr. Light, who happens to be Japanese, but that has literally nothing to do with her powers or characterization.
For slightly lesser known characters--which occasionally works better for live action adaptations since you have fewer rabid fans dissecting everything--Fire and Ice would maybe make for an interesting movie.
I loved 'Green Fire' and 'Icemaiden,' particularly their original powersets and origins (Mystical green fire and illusion control? I had the Superfriend issue(s?) where they (and the other later-called Global Guardians) appeared. A hidden land of ice-manipulating magical people somewhere in Scandinavia? Cool!). Then Giffen got his paws on them and they became Playboy bunnies with completely different backstories (and powers, in Fire's case), as part of his Bwa-ha-ha I Can't Believe It's Not the Justice League nonsense.
<Shakes fist at sky> GIFFEEEEEENNNN!
Unfortunately, that's the 'Fire and Ice' we've got, and I expect that any future development of them will be based off of the giggly pinup girls that he turned them into.
And yeah, I am that rabid fan dissecting, etc. you just mentioned.
It's technically not irony, if I'm aware of it. :)
Or Manhunter (Kate Spencer) might be cool.
A cool character with an interesting setup, since the DCU has all sorts of 'super' equipment lying around, and it totally fits for someone to pick some of that up and use it to fight (or do) crime.
I loved 'Green Fire' and 'Icemaiden,' particularly their original powersets and origins (Mystical green fire and illusion control? I had the Superfriend issue(s?) where they (and the other later-called Global Guardians) appeared. A hidden land of ice-manipulating magical people somewhere in Scandinavia? Cool!). Then Giffen got his paws on them and they became Playboy bunnies with completely different backstories (and powers, in Fire's case), as part of his Bwa-ha-ha I Can't Believe It's Not the Justice League nonsense.
<Shakes fist at sky> GIFFEEEEEENNNN!...
but..I love my supermodel fire and ice!
Grant Morrison is on record wanting to acknowledge the sexual aspect of WW, which was (in a perverse way) inherent in Marston's original. This would likely present a huge challenge, as most writers are afraid of not handling it right and angering fans...
You see, this is the problem with Diana's character. As another poster pointed out earlier, George Perez did yeoman work giving Diana a 'voice' all her own--yet the next writers went another way, and that opportunity to establish a 'character' for Diana was lost. Bruce Wayne's character is pretty well established--he had one tone in the silver age and a much different one since the '80s, but it doesn't shift much from writer to writer. Same with Clark Kent--there is the Golden Age Clark, the Silver Age Clark, and the Clark we can trace back to Byrne and Wolfman. The tone of the character is so well established that new writers know who the character is. Diana, though, hasn't had this history, and until she does, Warner's will struggle to leverage her.
Regarding the "relatability" of the clay origin, I have to say I agree with Smith and Morrison. I've been a massive Wonder Woman pretty much my whole life, but the clay thing has always just felt weird to me, for lack of a better classification.
The thing about Superman is his story IS very relatable--we may not know what it feels like to be a literal alien, but to feel alienated, to feel like one doesn't quite fit in the world one finds oneself in--that's pretty common. Plus his origin follows a pretty classic adoption trope that tends to resonate with a lot of people for a variety of reasons..
It's harder to find a humanifying metaphor in Diana's story. It hearkens back of course to both Judeochristian and ancient Greek myths of human origin--we all were originally formed from clay according to those myths-but I struggle to see something we contemporary Westerners can really latch onto there on a personal level. The other past story it reflects is the Pygmalion myth, which I find troubling, not compelling.
To me the most relatable aspect in a WW origin story is the contest. Diana is forbidden by her overprotective mother to vie for the right to be the Amazons' emissary. So she disguises herself to compete and wins. This need to prove oneself as well as to try to break away from a parent's grasp or protection is very relatable. But in order for this story to work, Diana needs to be no more powerful than the other Amazons. She has to be just like them in essence, to prove what is unique about her is not a special birth or being a holy vessel of godly power. It is simply that she has worked the hardest and is most determined to win. If she's some special snowflake Gumby with boobs, then she just wins because it would be impossible for her not to. You can contrive that somehow her powers are diminished for the purposes of the contest, but it's an obvious contrivance--she's still obviously the Chosen One, win or lose. So personally I'd rather it be done away with too.
That of course many would strongly disagree with me is part of the split fan base issue touched on earlier.
I've been a massive Wonder Woman pretty much my whole life
I knew something seemed superheroine about you the moment we met!
If she's some special snowflake Gumby with boobs...
you, dame, owe me a new keyboard!
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've been a massive Wonder Woman pretty much my whole lifeI knew something seemed superheroine about you the moment we met!
That's what I get for writing from my phone. Forget the word "fan" and suddenly you've accidentally revealed your secret identity. ;)
I don't think that being a 'special snowflake' is a valid criticism of a superhero!
The emphasis was supposed to be on the Gumby with boobs part.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
To me the most relatable aspect in a WW origin story is the contest. Diana is forbidden by her overprotective mother to vie for the right to be the Amazons' emissary. So she disguises herself to compete and wins. This need to prove oneself as well as to try to break away from a parent's grasp or protection is very relatable. But in order for this story to work, Diana needs to be no more powerful than the other Amazons. She has to be just like them in essence, to prove what is unique about her is not a special birth or being a holy vessel of godly power. It is simply that she has worked the hardest and is most determined to win. If she's some special snowflake Gumby with boobs, then she just wins because it would be impossible for her not to. You can contrive that somehow her powers are diminished for the purposes of the contest, but it's an obvious contrivance--she's still obviously the Chosen One, win or lose. So personally I'd rather it be done away with too.
Great analysis, and tons of people can relate with the feeling that they have at some point in their lives had to hide some aspect of themselves to get the same sort of break that others get, whether it be to not mention some aspect of their background in an interview or on a resume or to get a loan or buy a house. Diana finding it necessary to 'hide her light under a bushel' to get a fair chance at winning the competition is something most of us have felt, at some point, even if it was something like we couldn't compete in some sort of school activity because a parent was a teacher or coach, or something silly like that.
I very much like the idea that she wasn't 'super' from the start, but flat out *earned* the powers that she uses as Wonder Woman. That, right there, separates her from Superman or Batman, both of whom, in different ways, inherited their power (or wealth), even if they, in later life, proved their worthiness to have them many times over.
Diana becomes the self-made hero, born with advantages (daughter of the Queen, yo), but not 'super-strong because her dad is Hercules' which, IMO, is pretty darn unimpressive, as origins go.
The gender icon thing comes off as self-limiting. Diana should indeed be a role model, and an icon, and a figure that inspires admiration (and, to others, controversy). But not just to women. Superman has had a few female 'legacy' characters (generally named Supergirl) and Batman has had quite a few more (various Batwomen and Batgirls among them), so it would be, IMO, completely natural for Wonder Woman to have *male* legacy character or two. Not just some 'Wonder Girls,' but some men who find her inspiring and are willing to take up some aspect of her character. Steve Trevor, in the new JLA, is kind of cool, in that aspect. He isn't 'Wonder Man' or 'Captain Wonder' by any means, but he's a pretty rare sight in comic books, a man who appeared as a supporting character to a woman, and, after she changed his life, gone on to an active 'heroing' career.
Diana's ties to Greek mythology, and the crazy amounts of gods, heroes and monsters that implies, opens up a *huge* range of potential spin-off characters, and not just 'moar Amazons.' Minotaurs, harpies, centaurs, furies, various folk with traces of godly blood who, like the Argonauts, can do some funky things because of that, etc. I feel like, over at Marvel, the writers have done a ton more with that sort of background mythology with characters spun off of Thor and Hercules. It seems like a missed opportunity that DC hasn't done more to explore that rich mythology, and introduce some supporting characters tied into that.
I don't think that being a 'special snowflake' is a valid criticism of a superhero!The emphasis was supposed to be on the Gumby with boobs part.
keyboard bills are racking up here....
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think that being a 'special snowflake' is a valid criticism of a superhero!The emphasis was supposed to be on the Gumby with boobs part.
I didn't know who 'Gumby' was until I just looked it up. : /
And I decided not to look up the 'boobs' part. I'm told that there are boobs on the Internet, but I'm not going to risk looking in case I don't make it back.
|
|
She could easily gain the 'above and beyond' powers as a result of winning the contest. If someone else had won, they would have all that cool stuff.
Yup, that totally works. The winner either gets to draw upon powers handed down from the gods as the champion / representative of Paradise Island, or maybe the gods are totally uninvolved, and she instead can call upon the fighting skill and strength of all of the Amazons (not just the ones currently alive, but perhaps all of them, ever), if the writer wants to avoid the 'strength of Hercules, speed of Hermes' stuff and differentiate her from Shazam/Captain Marvel.
OTOH, a version of Shazam who drew her powers from the six female Olympians; Athena, Artemis, Aphrodite, Hera, Hestia and Demeter could be an unusual choice, if not really appropriate for Wonder Woman. (Since those six gods aren't really associated with powers like super-strength or flight, and, thanks to figures like Hestia, Artemis and Demeter, would more likely include some sort of wall-of-stone-creating powers and / or flame generating powers, superhuman archery skills and plant control, making it a very different sort of character!)
|
|
Mary Marvel's powers did originally come from six goddesses/demi-goddesses. When DC bought Fawcett that was changed, because Diana's mom was "H".
That's neat to know!
Hippolyta could totally be a source of mythic power! She's the two or three thousand year old queen of a dimensionally off-set island of magical immortal people, I think she totally rates!
I do think that comics tend to go to the well of presenting mythological figures based mainly on super-strength and toughness, like Thor or Hercules, when there are a *ton* of interesting gods (or heroes, or mythic beasties) out there with more interesting attributes, who could occupy very different roles on teams than 'the powerhouse' or 'the strong guy.'
Heimdall, for instance, would be way more original-feeling than Thor. A god whose 'super-power' is heightened senses? Same with Artemis. The *archer* on the team (generally one of the least powered members) is the token god? You could also tap into some lesser explored mythologies, and make some truly awesome super-heroes based off of Chango or Tezcatlipoca or Ptah or Pele or the Morrigan.
Elsewords spanked What If? like an unwanted stepchild.
Oh yes. What If, on rare occasions, was pretty good, but seemed to have actively gotten worse, as time went on. Many of the alternate worlds presented in the Exiles early run were more compelling, and some What If's read entirely like creative response to unpopular storylines, to 'prove' that if their own bad story hadn't happened the way it did, things would have been *even worse.* Lame.
Elseworlds have often been amazing. I don't know if Superboy's Legion is considered part of the Elseworld's 'imprint' or whatever, but it's one of my top two Legion stories, ever.
Sadly, due to inconsistent approaches with the property, Wonder Woman's actual series have felt like a collection of Elseworlds at times...
As to WW being much like an Elseworld, I agree. My favorite gripe of the last several years is General Phillipus being replaced by Artemis. Or Artemis being a Themysciran period (like in Smallvile Season 11). Doesn't DC have enough redheads?
Artemis was in Smallville?
I love the character of Artemis, I think she's one of the funnest members of the Wonder family. "I am not violent and I will slit the throat of the man who says I am!"
But she should not have replaced Phillipus. Very different characters who could serve very different roles.
And no, DC does not have enough redheads. But I have a thing for redheads, so.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The redheads comment was a subtle reference to other DC characters replaced by redheads in recent years. Notably blonde Batgirl being replaced by redheaded Oracle.
Yes I know Babs was the second original. But DC's rationale is that she is the version everyone remembers. And this rationale is always based on most recent appearance of the character in a non-print format. Hence the aborted JL movie was to have John Stewart (of the JLU Animated Series) instead of Hal Jordan. So based on their own logic, the New 52 Batgirl should be Alfred's niece Barbara Wilson.No matter what logic DC gives, the reason is going back to the Silver Age version. The New 52 is all about trying to make a new silver age.
I've taken to calling it the Mercury Age. It may look like silver at first glance, but it's really a toxic substance.
Mercury is really apt.
Also, continuity is so fluid there's no point in trying to keep track of it.
And all they want to do is rebuild the DCU from when they started reading comics when they were kids, any age be damned, but their revisioning of it is really twisted and tainted. I feel like DC has become some overgrown kid's fanfiction publishing company rather than a company run by professionals who prize things like continuity and respecting fans over playing in a nostalgia sandbox.
I like Barbara, Stephanie, and Cassandra as Batgirl, but like I said I'm tired of the split fanbase thing and wish they'd retire the Batgirl title (but have Babs, Steph, and Cass all in the DCU under their own, non-distaff counterpart, self-determined identities. Hell put them in one book and call it "We are so awesome, we do not need to name ourselves for some arrogant vengeance-obsessed dude who dresses like a flying mammal." Perhaps that's too long though.).
But man, do not blame poor Artie for anybody getting replaced by anything. Well, except for the time she replaced Wonder Woman, but we all knew that was temporary. ;)
I'd prefer to see John Stewart as GL in the JL movie just because he's my favorite Green Lantern, and I think Hal Jordan is a dick who should have stayed dead. But that's just my opinion.
Set, Black Canary's also often suffered from the hair issue. She's supposed to be a brunette with either a wig or bottle job, but occasionally gets depicted as apparently a natural blonde.
You'd think there'd be character bibles and continuity editors for that sort of thing but maybe the operation's too big to keep track of those things.
I like the donkey.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Mercury is really apt.
Indeed.
I'd prefer to see John Stewart as GL in the JL movie just because he's my favorite Green Lantern, and I think Hal Jordan is a dick who should have stayed dead. But that's just my opinion.
100% agreement. John and Kyle both were developed into really interesting characters. Hal has, if anything, been horribly regressed, and I think he made a better Specter than anything. The Parallax retcon didn't 'fix' anything, it made it worse, since Hal's entire point is that he's got the willpoweriest willpower that ever willed a power. Hal Jordan's excuse for flipping out is 'he failed a Will save' is about as cringeworthy as Thor getting tasered. :)
Although it's long past time a Ring chose a *woman* from Earth.
Set, Black Canary's also often suffered from the hair issue. She's supposed to be a brunette with either a wig or bottle job, but occasionally gets depicted as apparently a natural blonde.
You'd think there'd be character bibles and continuity editors for that sort of thing but maybe the operation's too big to keep track of those things.
Ooh, I'd forgotten about the wig thing!
And yeah, you'd think that one of these 'editors' of which they speak might actually keep track of this stuff...
Set, Black Canary's also often suffered from the hair issue. She's supposed to be a brunette with either a wig or bottle job, but occasionally gets depicted as apparently a natural blonde.Pre-Reboot JSA (back when Johns was at the top of his game) she told someone that the wig was a problem so she started to use dye.
That's what I meant by "bottle job." She also dyed it while in Birds of Prey.
I apologize for derailing the thread from rebooting Wonder Woman to Black Canary's hair care habits.
Still more interesting than the debate me and a friend had back in 8th grade about whether it mattered that most artists didn't bother to outline the Phantom's ears under his hood.
(Or, why, if he was so pally with President Luaga, he couldn't just get some sort of diplomatic dispensation to bring his wolf on the planes instead of having to explain to all the flight attendants that he could too - because "Devil is a wolf, not a dog.")
Going off topic, but if we talk so passionately about favorite DC heroes and what we'd like done with them, why doesn't someone run a DCA RPG at the play by post forum? Would probably be pretty cool...
Going off topic, but if we talk so passionately about favorite DC heroes and what we'd like done with them, why doesn't someone run a DCA RPG at the play by post forum? Would probably be pretty cool...
which version?