True, and while I have much respect for what you guys do here and your creations are inspiring, in this particular case the method of achieving the goals is taking some interesting 'heisenberg' license in areas that i'm not comfortable with...
If I had to use an analogy i'd say i've shown you a photo that i've taken of my goal and am interested in a quantitative analysis of whether that is a picture of something that is underpowered, overpowered, or right in the middle. And if it's overpowered, seeing what can be done to make it not overpowered.
Instead what seems to be happening is you've seen my photo, found something within it that inspires you, and you're now making a painting that artfully and interestingly highlights that certain something.
Its not that the painting is bad. Fey catch is imaginitive and colorful and I fully appreciate that. Making her small is not a trade i'd be willing to make. Finesse based eidolon is an interesting and colorful interpretation of a fey eidolon, but it's not to my tastes and the nerfs to fey eidolon are already covered in the writing of the first world eidolon which is nerfing that I am already quite comfortable with. I'm not entirely sure that the feymage as written really addresses the main component of my uest which is getting 7-9 level spells added to my repertoire... More spell choices is totally right, but more spells per day is in the sacrifice column in a big big way in order to get what I'm looking for...
Don't take it the wrong way. I totally appreciate your talents for coming up with interesting new ways to interpret an ability in a thematic way... Its just that doing so can occasionally create a new issue where there was none before, and while doing so for mechanical purposes might be necessary, doing so for artistic purposes can end up being like pedaling uphill.
It might be better if I cropped this up a little into the important bits...The simplest way to state the goal is start with a sorcerer.
What we want to add?
What we are fine with removing
Things that mitigate the cost of the eidolon
It has already been said that my request isnt ideal for this thread, since i'm far into the build already and have a gestalt version of it for 10 levels already in play, so i'm pretty strongly married to the concept...
I totally understand that the MCA thread is more typically focused on taking the idea and running with it from an artistic standpoint to make it something thematic and new and interesting. I just happen to be more interested in sorting out the details of my own version of it than artfully reconstructing it into something new. If that sort of thing doesnt interest you then of course I don't want to waste your time. Balancing a class is something the MCA group by its very nature has more experience and skill at than the average optimizing murderhobo threads by a wide margin... In that light its the best place for questions like mine, but I certainly don't want to impose.
Look, even with a nerfed eidolon, giving access to 7-9 level spells like that is going to be overpowered by nature, ESPECIALLY if the number known is nearly doubled like that. Number per day doesn't matter as much when you've got so many known- all you need is to scribe some scrolls on the cheap for those days where you need a little more bang and there you go, problem solved and you've still got plenty of casting power. Basically, what the wizard does. And no, you can't say 'oh but I'd never take that feat', because a) we're designing for everyone and b) it's one example of how overpowered that can be.
I took what you gave me and aimed for something that could be balanced, workable, had a little flavor you seemed to be aiming for. Heisenberging doesn't really apply here- I'm fully aware of what you've stated you want.
If I had to use an analogy i'd say i've shown you a photo that i've taken of my goal and am interested in a quantitative analysis of whether that is a picture of something that is underpowered, overpowered, or right in the middle. And if it's overpowered, seeing what can be done to make it not overpowered.
Instead what seems to be happening is you've seen my photo, found something within it that inspires you, and you're now making a painting that artfully and interestingly highlights that certain something.
(( Specific parts bolded for emphasis ))
This is the sort of thing that needs to be done to make it 'not overpowered'. So yes, I'm doing as you've requested, and perhaps you're trying to avoid seeing that, or just not realizing it.
And yes, I was inspired by the idea- and I dropped most of my inspiration to better suit you. If I were to polish out the idea I had, it'd more likely have ended up as a druid/summoner who utilized arcane magic and had a fey eidolon.
Now. I've made a shot at what you wanted, found a way to make it 'not overpowered', and you've stood it up. So- either you're not telling us what you actually want, or you're just not liking what has to be done to balance it.
I'm trying to help you out here, but it's not going to work unless you let me do so.
I'm not avoiding seeing that. Im saying I dont need inspirational twists. I need to know if the entire list of mitigating circumstances and removals is 'not sufficient'
Your answer here clearly indicates that even going down to 2 spells per level per day and no ability to summon natures ally, you'd still consider this build too powerful. Thats all you need to say. If thats what you're saying then we can be done at this point. The very best you could do for me at this point would be to explain to me why you've arrived at that decision. What specific broken things appear to still be possible with this build that make it overshadow existing classes.
I'm not ignoring you, missing your point or not paying attention. Finding something that inspires you isn't what 'needs to be done' to fix this build. I'm not asking what imaginitive alternate nerfs you can come up with. I'm asking for a yes or no on is this enough. The answer being no is as far as we need to go.
You're getting poetic and creative and pretending like you're taking care of the issue. Thats great for you and edifying for you but it doesnt help me out one bit. I don't need creativity advice. I have enough creativity on my own and I definitely don't need to breathe the second hand smoke from watching you smoke the pompous pipe. Dont pretend like your artistic and creative nerf process is the one nerf that's missing, Me not loving your artistic contribution to the nerfing process isnt a bad thing but your tone indicates that its the only solution, which it isn't... But if that's as far as you'll go then thank you for your time.
We are a creative team. We aren't here to balance other people's homebrews. The rest of the forum can do that. If you don't want our process, that is fine.
With that said, you are expecting a gestalt combination to be converted into a base class. That isn't going to happen without giving up some aspects for the sake of balance, and in this case, those aren't aspects you seem to want to give up.
Hopefully the next time a helping hand is extended you'll remember that it's just that- a helping hand.
Simmer down guys. Vincent, this might not be the place for you to realize your homebrew dreams. May I suggest making your own thread? Cheers!
, you are expecting a gestalt combination to be converted into a base class. That isn't going to happen without giving up some aspects for the sake of balance,
What I did was theorize that when you're making a gestalt you're choosing all of the best options from both classes, which inherently makes it more powerful than a regular class. If instead you took the worst options most of the time could the end result be of a similar powerband to a regular class. At least in your case the answer is abjectly no, even when I go so far as to bring spells down to 2 per level per day, and thats fine. Specific tactical oversights clarified, criticisms and opinions are what i'm looking for. I'm not even asking anyone to 'create' a class for me.
Actually I originally posted my own thread about it
One of the regulars here suggested in my thread that this might be a good place to have my ideas examined.
I wasn't going to, but I only showed up here in the first place by a well intentioned invite.
I apologize for misinterpreting the threads intentions, desires, methods, styles and goals.
Hmm. Well that didn't quite work out the way I imagined. Still that's all part of life's rich tapestry...
Vincent - are you still interested in working with what has been presented - say with Elghinn's version minus the bloodline powers and with a replacement for fey catch?
If not, no harm done. I'm sorry if this has been in any way a less than helpful experience.
Nice work Raider and El with a tricky assignment...
No worries all. I just saw some subtle ad hominems blossoming in the interchange and wanted to nip them in the bud. Best of luck to all parties!
Vincent - are you still interested in working with what has been presented - say with Elghinn's version minus the bloodline powers and with a replacement for fey catch?
Nah. I am interested in hearing the specifics about this class that still put it into overpowered land because I think just generalizing that 9th level spells and eidolons at the same time is 'broken' is hamfisting an opinion on whats overpowered and what isn't. Even if its not a hamfisted judgement, i'd like the specifics of what makes it overpowerd clarified. And maybe those presumptions start to go away when you're down to 2 spells per level per day, or maybe they don't.... I want the build itself examined. Not new ones created.
Thank you for the invite of course. I believed that although I use too many giant walls of text to add clarity and nuance to my specifics, that my intent still may not in the end have been clear, and when it didnt seem to be working out the way i'd thought, I'd like to think I was as polite and respectful as I could possibly be in pointing it out. I still have full confidence in the members of this thread and their ability to achieve their specific goals. I do feel like each of raiders replies had an antagonistic tone but he seems to have a disinterest in my project on my terms and this is your thread not mine....
I would have strongly preferred refutations and counterarguments for being more illustrative, specific, and helpful to me personally, but it is what it is. He did point out that scribe scroll is a 'hole in the buld'... His post about it leads me to believe that on the face of it is that such a thing is an unmitigatable impasse, which I can easily see isn't true. Its helpful though because i can make an inability to take that feat or even take 'the inability to use scrolls period' away fro the class entirely. Thats the kind of useful quality stuff i'm looking for. I'm totally willing to take scrolls off the table to get this build up and running... I just need to see those kind of problems so I can be left to come up with a solution that fits my personal style. Maybe he doesnt have a solution to that problem and maybe he does, but in directly stating the problem I can very quickly come up with a solution that works for me, and move on to the next problem. I can't even necessarily say i'm opposed to suggestions on how to fix those problems, but I need to know what problem is being addressed so that I have some input on addressing those problems myself. That seems fair. It seems like it would create far faster solutions than just seeing a class he spent a lot of time working on, not understanding the changes, saying no, having the process repeat itself ad nauseum, never fully understanding the nuances of the choices that are being made.
I understand now that this is not an appropriate thread for such pursuits. I'm like you guys. I'm a creative problem solver. Theres a huge possibility though that you guys have more experience spotting the 'problems' more than I do... I'm totally happy to hear what the 'problems are'... As an outsider to this thread,I can see that what probably happens more often is that classes are built as solutions. I'm not asking for solutions... Just the problems. And not just the problems with no solutions, but specifics on the problems. I don't mean to be insulting by it. My intent showing up here wasn't to create a new MCA for your PDFs... It's to iron out my own thing for me, so I understand my deal belongs outside of here. Pardon the intrusion.
I'll happily head back to my own thread.
Everyone is capable of antagonism. It's the internet, tone is a crapshoot, and even the best-intentioned arguments can devolve into attacks thinly veiled beneath pipe metaphors ;) I mean no disrespect, but I think this particular discussion has kind of run its course, so I do honestly wish everyone the best of luck in their separate endeavors.
BTW, MCA guys, hiiiiiii :D
What're we working on?
<_<
Yeah. I definitely expected a conversation that went more like
'Can you tell me if this class is broken?'
'No'
'Thank you and good day'
---or ---
'Can you tell me if this class is broken?'
'Yes, it is broken'
'How'
'Scribe scroll negates this thing that you call a huge sacrifice'
'Ahhh! Thank you!'
---or---
'Can you tell me if this class is broken?'
'Yes, its broken'
'How'
'Sorry. I only answer one qeustion per person... move along'
---but definitely didnt expect---
'Can you tell me if this class is broken?'
'Allow me to answer your class with a class... Cool, yeah?'
Chalk it up to different communication styles I guess.
Thanks again everyone for your time and thank you to my inviter for the invitation to try! Game on!
there is one class feature i am mulling over
too much?
casting higher level spells is going to have a significant ki cost. But maybe restrict it to only spells from certain schools? Like no evocation or necromancy?
Sorry it didn't work out for you Vin. The MCAs evolved from my initial idea to create gestalt mutliclassing by gaining the qualities one wants and removing the ones you don't, but doing so in a balanced manner so that they are even with the other base classes. Sometimes, that balancing process requires give and take, keeping some of the stuff you may not want as a balancing mechanism. That's how we work. It seems what you are wanting is more a new base class with the true gestalt as a basis.
Although some of us do create new base classes that's not what we do here. If your GM doesn't have an issue with what you're doing, then more power to you. I know back in the day (AD&D 2E) we often gestalted like you are doing, and had no issues with overpowered. But here we try to create gestalt-esque MCAs that are on par with the other base classes, making them usable by anyone in any PF game without causing OP issues.
I sort of miss the unbalanced nature of the old classes. They provided opportunity for the PC to find ways of overcoming their handicaps in innovative ways. I know I always did. Good luck in your endeavors. Don't hesitate to return if you're looking for an MCA of your own. :D
So here is my first draft of the beast knight
The beast knights are an order of druids that focus their abilities on a bond with a powerful animal that is capable of being a mount for them. They are most commonly found in plains or savannas. They often fight against those who over hunt the area.
Hit die d8
Skills: a beast knight adds 3 cavalier skills to his list of class skills, 4+Int modifier skills
Weapon and armour proficiency: Beast knights are proficient with the following weapons club, dagger, dart, lance, quarterstaff, scimitar, scythe, sickle, shortspear, sling, spear and all natural attacks granted by any wild shaped form. Beast knights are proficient with light and medium armour with the same restrictions as a druid.
Spells: A beast knight casts divine spells as a druid.
Diminished spellcasting: Beast knights suffer from diminished spellcasting
Bestial bond: a bestial bond functions exactly like a druid’s natural bond with an animal companion but a beast knight can make his animal companion one size larger than a normal druid if this allows him to use it as a mount.
Rider’s sense: The beast knight gains +2 to handle animal and ride checks
Trackless step: while mounted the beast rider’s mount leaves no tracks
Wild shape: the beast knight’s wild shape functions as druids wild shape with the following changes. If the beast knight’s wild shaped form is bipedal and at least one size smaller than his animal companion then he can remain mounted and retains his ride skill and training.
Challenge: This functions exactly like a cavalier’s challenge except that the beast knight’s extra damage is equal to his beast knight level -3 and that he can choose when he gains this ability the bonus to challenges from the following orders: Dragon, Lion or star.
Greater shaping: when the beast knight wild shapes he can choose to increase the size of his animal companion by 1 size.
Lvl Bab Fort Ref Will Special
1 0 2 0 2 Nature Bond, Rider’s sense, Orisons, wild empathy
2 1 3 0 3 Woodland stride
3 2 3 1 3 Trackless step
4 3 4 1 4 Challenge 1/day, Wild Shape
5 3 4 1 4
6 4 5 2 5 Cavalier’s charge
7 5 5 2 5
8 6 6 2 6 Wild shape 2/day
9 6 6 3 6
10 7 7 3 7 Challenge 2/day
11 8 7 3 7
12 9 8 4 8 Wild shape 3/day
13 9 8 4 8 A thousand faces
14 10 9 4 9 Challenge 3/day
15 11 9 5 9 Timeless body
16 12 10 5 10 Wild shape 4/day
17 12 10 5 10
18 13 11 6 11 Challenge 4/day
19 14 11 6 11
20 15 12 6 12 Greater shaping
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
0
1
1 0
2 1
2 1 0
2 2 1
3 2 1 0
3 2 2 1
3 3 2 1 0
3 3 2 2 1
3 3 3 2 1 0
3 3 3 2 2 1
3 3 3 3 2 1 0
3 3 3 3 2 2 1
3 3 3 3 3 2 1 0
3 3 3 3 3 2 2 1
3 3 3 3 3 3 2 1 0
3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 1
3 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 1
3 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2
casting higher level spells is going to have a significant ki cost. But maybe restrict it to only spells from certain schools? Like no evocation or necromancy?
maybe, it is only 9 spells by 19th level, with only 1 5th level spell. Maybe pick one school where spells are treated one level lower, and one where they are treated one level higher?
So here is my first draft of the beast knight
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
yay i was hoping you would do that one, the call on wild shape was a good if only for the following joke "you're horse has issues, it really has got to get that monkey off it's back". In all seriousness, is the only trade-off decreased spellcasting? I'm not a 100% that equates to the benefits, though i will look closer when not on my phone. I find that i can examine better from a laptop.
that could work, but make sure that it always costs at least one ki point
decreased spell casting, no spontanious casting, no venom immuninity, no resist natures lure, reduced uses of wild shape per day and no wildshape at will at lvl 20
decreased spell casting, no spontanious casting, no venom immuninity, no resist natures lure, reduced uses of wild shape per day and no wildshape at will at lvl 20
ok then, if anything maybe you have more bonus' like instead of a size increase, you use the giant template.
Also you should make the size increase a conscious decision that lasts 24 hours. This way the mammoth rider doesn't devalue it, but rather benefits from it.
Finished up the first draft, will only be able to post the day after tomorrow. It does get the canny defense class feature.
(and now our first free PDF "Divine Champions" is also available at d20PFSRD)
I decided that after this next one, i will focus on some of the more starved mca's like the oracle and inquisitor. It seems wrong that they are so sparse.
Dotting. ;)
Welcome Hodge Podge, feel free to make suggestions on the Multiclass Archetypes being constructed right now or submit your own.
That's our line, Browman! :P
Sorry none of you guys were on ;)
Also nice work getting MCA's on d20
So which would you guys like to evaluate first? Monk/wizard or Oracle/Gunslinger. I kinda got bored and made a second MCA, so now im in a conundrum on which to be balanced out first.
I think an oracle/ gunslinger would be interesting
Which actually makes we want to do a Inquisitor/ gunslinger who puts bane and judgement on the bullets in his weapon while he hunts creatures of the night
I think an oracle/ gunslinger would be interesting
Which actually makes we want to do a Inquisitor/ gunslinger who puts bane and judgement on the bullets in his weapon while he hunts creatures of the night
make sure the gunpowder inquisition is mandatory. So thats one vote for the Delphine Desperado.
I was actually thinking of avoiding that as the gunpower inquisition has always struck me as being for characters who want to dable in firearms espcially if you are a lvl 1 guy and cannot even afford a gun.
So here is my first draft of the beast knight
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Browman, you need to specify what abilities you are swapping out for the new ones. that's a BIG pat of being able to gage the balance of the swaps. Once you specify that then I can look over the Beast Knight.
Toaster, I vote for oracle/gunslinger too.
So here is my first draft of the beast knight
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Browman, you need to specify what abilities you are swapping out for the new ones. that's a BIG pat of being able to gage the balance of the swaps. Once you specify that then I can look over the Beast Knight.
Toaster, I vote for oracle/gunslinger too.
Ok I will do that in the morning
As a note for the Delphine Desperado, it is a somewhat simplistic setup. Gains a battered gun and grit pool, swaps out certain levels of mystery spells for gun related ones, and has the option for replacing revelations with deeds.
Lots of activity since I was last here.
1- Is there anything left to be done on Runeforged Warrior?
2- That whole discussion/argument/brainstorm with Vincent's idea makes me want to make a wizard who does nothing but take Evolved Familiar as his bonus feats and just make a whacky mutated sparrow >8D
3- If Runeforged Warrior IS ready to go the distance, here's my next Shtick, ready to be poked at with a stick.
A child of nature and a natural scholar, the elemental savant lives and breathes the foundation of all existence. These versatile and powerful spellcasters rain down elemental fury from both studies practice and ritual, as well as from a deeply felt connection to the natural world.
Primary Class: Druid
Secondary Class: Wizard
Alignment: Any Neutral
Hit Dice: d8
Poor BAB, Good saves Fort and Will
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The elemental savant may select three wizard skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal druid class skills. The elemental savant gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Elemental savants are proficient with the following weapons: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, scythe, sickle, shortspear, sling, and spear. They are also proficient with all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape (see below).
Elemental savants are proficient with light armor but are prohibited from wearing metal armor; thus, they may wear only padded, leather, or hide armor. An elemental savant may also wear wooden armor that has been altered by the ironwood spell so that it functions as though it were steel. Elemental savants are not proficient with shields. She ignores arcane spell failure chance when casting arcane elemental savant spells while wearing light armor.
An elemental savant who wears prohibited armor is unable to cast divine elemental savant spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.
Spells: An elemental savant casts spells as both a druid and a wizard, preparing spells from 2 separate spell lists and having 2 separate allotments of spells per day. She casts arcane Wizard spells using intelligence, carries a spellbook for Wizard spells, and spends an hour preparing spells once per day. She also casts divine Druid spells using wisdom, and spends a separate hour preparing spells once per day, requiring 2 hours to prepare both her spell lists. She has diminished spellcasting for both arcane and divine spells, losing 2 spell slots per spell level she can cast. She gains bonus spells per day if she has a high intelligence or wisdom, however if she does not have 2 slots of a given spell level, she loses 1 bonus spell slot granted by a high casting stat. For example, a 1st level elemental savant does not gain normal spell slots, and loses a bonus spell slot from both intelligence and wisdom. Her diminished spellcasting does not detract from her bonus spells granted from her elemental school or elemental domain.
Spontaneous Casting: An elemental savant can channel stored spell energy into summoning spells that she hasn't prepared ahead of time. She can “lose” a prepared arcane spell in order to cast her domain spell of the same level or lower. She can also “lose” a prepared divine spell in order to cast a spell with an elemental descriptor matching her elemental school of the same level or lower.
Orisons and Cantrips: An elemental savant knows and prepares orisons and cantrips in the same way that a druid and a wizard does, although she prepares 2 less than normal of each per day.
Elemental School: At 1st level the elemental savant gains an Elemental School. This functions as the wizard's elemental school class feature, but is not optional and must be selected from Air, Earth, Fire, or Water.
Elemental Domain: At 1st level the elemental savant gains an Elemental Domain. This functions as the druid's nature bond, but she must select Nature Domain, and it must be from the domains of Air, Earth, Fire, or Water. It does not need to be the same element selected for her Elemental School.
Planar Sense (Ex): At level 2, an elemental savant gains a +2 bonus on Knowledge (planes) and Survival checks.
Elemental Empathy (Ex): An elemental savant can improve the attitude of an elemental. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of an elemental. The elemental savant rolls 1d20 and adds her elemental savant level and her Charisma modifier to determine the elemental empathy check result.
To use elemental empathy, the druid and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an elemental in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.
An elemental savant can use this ability to influence an elemental with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 at no penalty, but she takes a –4 penalty on the check if she is trying to influence an elemental with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher.
Environmental Stride (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, an elemental savant may move through an environmental hazard that hampers movement at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment, related to her elemental school and elemental domain.
Fire: Traveling through non-magical fires that do no more than 1d6 damage. This damage is only ignored as long as the elemental savant starts and ends her movement outside of the fire. She may also travel through lava in this way, with the same limitation of starting and stopping outside of the lava, but only while walking. Full submersion in lava still does normal lava damage.
Earth: The elemental savant travels through earthy and stony debris that counts as rough terrain without penalty, and ignores damage from effects such as Stone Spikes.
Air: The elemental savant is considered to be 1 size larger for the purposes of wind effects, and ignores the first 20 feet of falling damage.
Water: The elemental savant ignores rough terrain effects presented by shallow water, and her movement is not affected while standing and moving on icy surfaces.
Elemental Resistance (Sp): At 4th level the elemental savant gains Energy Resistance to the selected elements of her elemental school and elemental domain equal to 1½ times her elemental savant level, or two times her elemental savant level if both her elemental school and elemental domain are the same element. In addition, at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, she gains a +1 bonus on her saves against spells and spell-like abilities with an elemental descriptor matching her elemental school and elemental domain (to a maximum of +5 at level 20) , if her school and domain element is the same, she instead gains +1 at 4th and level 3 levels thereafter (to a maximum of +6 at level 19).
Elemental Wild Shape (Su): At 5th level, an elemental savant gains the ability to turn herself into a small elemental and back again once per day. This ability functions like the elemental body I spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per elemental savant level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to elemental or back) is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an elemental related to the elemental savant's elemental school or elemental domain.
An elemental savant loses her ability to speak any language besides the primary elemental language of her elemental body. Ignan for fire, Auran for air, Aquan for water, and Terran for earth.
An elemental savant can use this ability an additional time per day at 8th level and every three levels thereafter, for a total of five times at 17th level. At 20th level, an elemental savant can use wild shape at will. As an elemental savant gains in levels, this ability allows the elemental savant to take on the form of larger and smaller elementals. Each form expends one daily usage of this ability, regardless of the form taken.
At 8th level, an elemental savant can use elemental wild shape to change into a Medium elemental. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape now functions as elemental body II.
At 11th level, an elemental savant can use elemental wild shape to change into a Large elemental. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape now functions as elemental body III.
At 14th level, an elemental savant can use elemental wild shape to change into a Huge elemental. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape now functions as elemental body IV.
Foundation Speech: At 10th level the elemental savant learns Ignan Auran Aquan and Terran if she does not already know them.
Timeless Body (Ex): After attaining 15th level, an elemental savant no longer takes ability score penalties for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any penalties she may have already incurred, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the elemental savant still dies of old age when her time is up.
Lvl BAB For Ref Wil Special 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 +0 +2 +0 +2 Elemental School, Elemental Domain (1/1) (-1/-1) - - - - - - - -
2 +1 +3 +0 +3 Planar Sense, Elemental Empathy (2/2) (0/0) - - - - - - - -
3 +1 +3 +1 +3 Environmental Stride (2/2) (0/0) (-1/-1) - - - - - - -
4 +2 +4 +1 +4 Elemental Resistance (2/2) (1/1) (0/0) - - - - - - -
5 +2 +4 +1 +4 Elemental Wild Shape (1/day) (2/2) (1/1) (0/0) (-1/-1) - - - - - -
6 +3 +5 +2 +5 - (2/2) (1/1) (1/1) (0/0) - - - - - -
7 +3 +5 +2 +5 - (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (0/0) (-1/-1) - - - - -
8 +4 +6 +2 +6 Elemental Wild Shape (2/day) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (1/1) (0/0) - - - - -
9 +4 +6 +3 +6 - (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (0/0) (-1/-1) - - - -
10 +5 +7 +3 +7 Foundation Speech (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (1/1) (0/0) - - - -
11 +5 +7 +3 +7 Elemental Wild Shape (3/day) (2/2) (2/2) (2/+2) (2/2) (1/1) (0/0) (-1/-1) - - -
12 +6/+1 +8 +4 +8 - (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (1/1) (0/0) - - -
13 +6/+1 +8 +4 +8 - (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (0/0) (-1/-1) - -
14 +7/+2 +9 +4 +9 Elemental Wild Shape (4/day) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (1/1) (0/0) - -
15 +7/+2 +9 +5 +9 Timeless Body (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (0/0) (-1/-1) -
16 +8/+3 +10 +5 +10 - (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (1/1) (0/0) -
17 +8/+2 +10 +5 +10 Elemental Wild Shape (5/day) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (0/0) (-1/-1)
18 +9/+4 +11 +6 +11 - (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (0/0)
19 +9/+4 +11 +6 +11 - (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (1/1)
20 +10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Elemental Wild Shape (At Will) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2)
Just as a note, this was mostly a thought experiment. I'm not terribly passionate about the concept so if this needs a lot of work, I'm fine with someone else nabbing it for the credit. *Has other concepts he'd rather mull around with*
I have been away from these threads for a while and just did some catching up. I have a few more comments on a couple of summoner based MCAs:
1) A while back (January 21, 2013, to be precise) Elghinn Lightbringer proposed some excellent fixes to a problem I identified with the Aspect Warrior (namely, that it could not do very much when its mystic eidolon was unavailable). These fixes do not seem to have been added to the wikispaces page yet.
2) For the Evolutionary Stalker, there are a couple of points that are unclear to me:
a) When an evolutionary stalker assumes his "base form", does he gain everything listed for the base form, or just the fact of having the base form and its free evolutions? Does he gain its physical ability scores, mental ability scores, both, or neither? Does he lose the use of his arms and hands if his base form and selected evolutions (if any) do not include them?
b) For spellcasting purposes, does an evolutionary stalker always count as his own eidolon? It would seem that with no base form or evolutions he would not count as an eidolon, but when he has his base form he is currently incapable of casting spells. Either he needs to be specified as being able to cast spells like Evolutionary Surge on himself in his normal humanoid form (Is he a biped then regardless of his taint's base form?) or he needs to be able to target himself with spells while in his base form.
Ok so Beast Knight with what his abilties replace from druid
The beast knights are an order of druids that focus their abilities on a bond with a powerful animal that is capable of being a mount for them. They are most commonly found in plains or savannas. They often fight against those who over hunt the area.
Hit die d8
Skills: a beast knight adds 3 cavalier skills to his list of class skills, 4+Int modifier skills
Weapon and armour proficiency: Beast knights are proficient with the following weapons club, dagger, dart, lance, quarterstaff, scimitar, scythe, sickle, shortspear, sling, spear and all natural attacks granted by any wild shaped form. Beast knights are proficient with light and medium armour with the same restrictions as a druid. (added lance)
Spells: A beast knight casts divine spells as a druid except that a beast knight cannot spontaniously cast any spells (spontanious spells dropped for lance proficiency)
Diminished spellcasting: Beast knights suffer from diminished spellcasting (due to gaining challanges which I feel is more powerful than extra uses of wild shape)
Bestial bond: a bestial bond functions exactly like a druid’s natural bond with an animal companion but a beast knight can make his animal companion one size larger than a normal druid if this allows him to use it as a mount. (replaces nature bond)
Rider’s sense: The beast knight gains +2 to handle animal and ride checks (replaces nature sense)
Trackless ride: while mounted the beast rider’s mount leaves no tracks (modified verson of druid trackless step)
Wild shape: the beast knight’s wild shape functions as druids wild shape with the following changes. If the beast knight’s wild shaped form is bipedal and at least one size smaller than his animal companion then he can remain mounted and retains his ride skill and training. (no change)
Challenge: This functions exactly like a cavalier’s challenge except that the beast knight’s extra damage is equal to his beast knight level -3 and that he can choose when he gains this ability the bonus to challenges from the following orders: Dragon, Lion or star. (replaces resist nature's lure and Wild shape 2, 4, 6, 8
Cavalier's charge (replaces Venom Immunity)
Greater shaping: when the beast knight wild shapes he can choose to increase the size of his animal companion by 1 size.
Lvl Bab Fort Ref Will Special
1 0 2 0 2 Nature Bond, Rider’s sense, Orisons, wild empathy
2 1 3 0 3 Woodland stride
3 2 3 1 3 Trackless step
4 3 4 1 4 Challenge 1/day, Wild Shape
5 3 4 1 4
6 4 5 2 5 Cavalier’s charge
7 5 5 2 5
8 6 6 2 6 Wild shape 2/day
9 6 6 3 6
10 7 7 3 7 Challenge 2/day
11 8 7 3 7
12 9 8 4 8 Wild shape 3/day
13 9 8 4 8 A thousand faces
14 10 9 4 9 Challenge 3/day
15 11 9 5 9 Timeless body
16 12 10 5 10 Wild shape 4/day
17 12 10 5 10
18 13 11 6 11 Challenge 4/day
19 14 11 6 11
20 15 12 6 12 Greater shaping
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
0
1
1 0
2 1
2 1 0
2 2 1
3 2 1 0
3 2 2 1
3 3 2 1 0
3 3 2 2 1
3 3 3 2 1 0
3 3 3 2 2 1
3 3 3 3 2 1 0
3 3 3 3 2 2 1
3 3 3 3 3 2 1 0
3 3 3 3 3 2 2 1
3 3 3 3 3 3 2 1 0
3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 1
3 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 1
3 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Ok so Beast Knight with what his abilties replace from druid
** spoiler omitted **...
This is pretty well done, but I do think that the Bestial Bond ability lends itself to brokenness... first of all there's no reason that you couldn't take a creature that's already Large and make it Huge with this ability (choose a horse, making it Huge still allows it to be used as a mount, Huge horse of awesomeness GO!)
Also, making an animal a size larger is a huge boost to its damage (+8 size bonus to Strength). I think you should probably have a specific set of bonuses gained, like maybe +4 to Strength, +2 to Con, -2 to Dex, and this would preclude the Druid from "sizing up" her animal companion again at 4th or 7th level. This should be restricted to Medium-sized companions (making them Large) for a Medium Beast Knight, or Small-size companions (making them Medium) for a Small-sized Beast Knight.I also feel like you should make a special version of Wild Shape that can be used when mounted, because there are very few bipedal options. What about giving the effects of the "Aspect of the" or "Animal aspect" spells, or alter self, for the same durations that the Druid would normally wild shape? This would allow her to keep her humanoid form but still get "wild" type abilities.
Alternatively to that, you could extend the Wild Shape ability to her companion, allowing the Druid to wild shape her mount into a different kind of mount to gain things like extra attacks or wings?
With Beastial bond perhaps we could add that it can only increase in size to the minimum size needed for the bestial knight to ride it. The main reason I added this ability was so the bestial knight could have mounts that another character of his size couldn't use as one.
So for example at lvl 4 a medium beast knight could have a bear as his mount, but a wolf would become large at lvl 1 but not become huge at lvl 7.
I am also fine with the size change providing reduced bonuses
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Happy fathers day everybody
Alright took some leway with comments regarding the beast knight, and using my experience with ability swaps in the past, here's what I've got. Some abilities are a little different or mave been moved to a different level. Also added in the Order abilities, since there was no swaps for the diminished spellcasting. Order of the Grand Circle is on the the wiki here for easy reference.
The beast knights are an order of druids that focus their abilities on a bond with a powerful animal that is capable of being a mount for them. They are most commonly found in plains or savannas. They often fight against those who over hunt the area.
Primary Class: Druid.
Secondary Class: Cavalier.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The beast knight may select three cavalier skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal druid class skills. The beast knight gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The beast knight is proficient with the club, dagger, dart, lance, quarterstaff, scimitar, scythe, sickle, shortspear, sling, and spear, as well as all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape. She is proficient with light and medium armor but is prohibited from wearing metal armor; thus, she may wear only padded, leather, or hide armor. A beast knight may also wear wooden armor that has been altered by the ironwood spell so that it functions as though it were steel. See the ironwood spell description. Beast knights are proficient with shields (except tower shields) but must use only wooden ones.
Diminished Spellcasting: The beast knight casts divine spells drawn from the druid spell list, and gains one fewer spell of each spell level per day. If this reduces the number to 0, she may cast spells of that level only if they are domain spells or if her Wisdom allows bonus spells of that level. Shee otherwise learns, prepares, and casts spells as a druid of equal level.
Bestial Bond (Ex): This is exactly like the druid’s nature bond ability, except that the beast knight must choose the animal companion bond. The creature must be one that is suitable as a mount and is at least the same size as the beast knight. If the creature is of equal size, it increases by one size category and gains a +2 bonus to natural armor, +4 bonus to Strength, +2 bonus to Constitution, and natural attacks increase its damage dice by one step. It also takes –2 penalty to its Dexterity score. This ensures that the beast knight is capable of riding her mount. Any creature that is already one size category larger than the beast knight does not gain these benefits.
Order: At 1st level, a beast knight must choose either the Dragon, Lion, or Star cavalier order, or the new Order of the Grand Circle. She gains her first order ability at 5th level and each subsequent order ability every six levels thereafter. This ability replaces spells lost due to diminished spellcasting.
Rider’s Sense (Ex): At 1st level, a beast knight gains a +2 on Handle Animal and Ride skill checks. This ability replaces nature sense.
Trackless Step (Ex): This is exactly like the druid ability of the same name, except that while mounted, the ability also applies to her mount, and can choose to leave a trail if she so desires.
Wild Shape (Su): This is exactly like the druid ability of the same name, except that she can wild shape once per day at 4th level, and an additional time per day every four levels thereafter, to a maximum of five times per day at 20th level. While mounted, a beast knight cannot use her wild shape ability unless her new form is bipedal and at least one size category smaller than her. In such cases, she retains the use of her Ride skill, and any feats or other abilities associated with mounted combat.
Alternatively, a beast knight can use her wild shape to turn her mount into creatures of the animal and magical beast types. At 6th level, she can use wild shape to change her companion into a Medium or Large animal. This functions as beast shape II. At 8th level, she can change her companion into a Huge animal. This functions as beast shape III. A 12th level, she can change her companion into a Medium or Large magical beast. This functions as beast shape IV.
Challenge (Ex): At 4th level, a beast knight gains the cavalier’s challenge ability, except that the beast knight can make a challenge once per day and an additional time per day every four levels thereafter, up to a maximum of four times per day at 18th level. This ability replaces wild shape 2/day, 4/day, 6/da, and 8/day.
Cavalier’s Charge (Ex): At 9th level, a beast knight gains the cavalier’s charge ability. This ability replaces venom immunity.
Greater Shaping (Su): At 13th level, a beast knight can increase the size of her animal companion by one size category for 1 round per level as a standard action. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. This transformation grants the animal companion the giant template, and can be dismissed as a swift action. This ability replaces a thousand faces.
Table: Druid
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Bestial bond, rider’s sense, order, 2 0 — — — — — — — —
orisons, wild empathy
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Woodland stride 3 1 — — — — — — — —
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Trackless step 3 1 0 — — — — — — —
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Resist nature’s lure, wild shape (1/day) 3 2 1 — — — — — — —
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Order ability 3 2 1 0 — — — — — —
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Challenge 1/day 3 2 2 1 — — — — — —
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 3 3 2 1 0 — — — — —
8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Wild shape (2/day) 3 3 2 2 1 — — — — —
9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Cavalier’s charge 3 3 3 2 1 0 — — — —
10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 Challenge 2/day 3 3 3 2 2 1 — — — —
11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Order ability 3 3 3 3 2 1 0 — — —
12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Wild shape (3/day) 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 — — —
13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Greater shaping 3 3 3 3 3 2 1 0 — —
14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Challenge 3/day 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 — —
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Timeless body 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 1 0 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Wild shape (4/day) 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 —
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Order ability 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 1 0
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Challenge 4/day 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 1
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Wild shape (5/day) 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3
It looks excellent and retains the flavour I was trying to go with while making several things more clear.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Alright took some leway with comments regarding the beast knight, and using my experience with ability swaps in the past, here's what I've got. Some abilities are a little different or mave been moved to a different level. Also added in the Order abilities, since there was no swaps for the diminished spellcasting. Order of the Grand Circle is on the the wiki here for easy reference.
** spoiler omitted **...
Greater Shaping needs an action type (I'd say swift), Wild Shape shouldn't require that the druid turn into a smaller creature, just not a larger one.
I think we should limit the druid herself to using alter self, turning into a small or medium-sized creature, and then the companion can turn into any type of animal or magical beast as written. Otherwise this is probably too powerful.
Sorry, that sentence should have read "While mounted, a beast knight cannot use her wild shape ability unless her new form is bipedal and at least one size category smaller than her mount."
I really don't see an issue with the druid using wild shape as is, or using the revised version on her mount. Still uses one of her 5 daily uses to do either. I think we can just add the following:
"A beast knight can only use her wild shape ability on herself or her mount, but not at the same time. If she uses her wild shape ability again, the first use immediately ends."
I think that should take care of the OP issue.
Beast Knight :B
Wow! That wild-shaped halfling has wild-shaped her wolf companion into a pony!
Oh. Beast Knight's wild-shape ability says "Alternatively..." Anyway we can change it so she CAN do both - wild-shape herself and her companion - as long as she has the wild-shapes per day, why not? We *need* small bears riding into battle on ponies!!!
[EDIT: Must have missed this:
"A beast knight can only use her wild shape ability on herself or her mount, but not at the same time. If she uses her wild shape ability again, the first use immediately ends."
Sadface.]
@Browman - nice concept and development! El - great work on the writeup. And you too cartmanbeck - good catches.
As a note for the Delphine Desperado, it is a somewhat simplistic setup. Gains a battered gun and grit pool, swaps out certain levels of mystery spells for gun related ones, and has the option for replacing revelations with deeds.
I'm going to throw this down here now before i post the MCA tomorrow.
Sacred Gunsmith: This functions exactly as the gunsmith Gunslinger class feature, save for the following. If you're battered firearm gains the broken condition, you gain a -2 penalty to caster level till its fixed. This replaces curse.This is kinda iffy as to whether it conveys enough of a bonus to be worth a loss of a scaling curse.
Admittedly now i want to do a witch/gunslinger, but i suppose i should get the 2 i got written up evaluated first.