#Primal Avatar:
*Personally I feel the shield ally stuff fits perfectly - a towering avatar able to protect all that shelter by it - the Primal Spirit can sense and aid them. Though I can understand not seeing them fit.
*Strangely, I was also going to say Dimension Door didn't fit, but on actually thinking about it, I can see it - if she's calling in a Primal Spirit, it's not much of a stretch to tap that same energy to make a dimensional jump.
*I think once the ability suite is finalised I think we can then decide on the HD with an eye to overall balance.
maybe this?
Spirt Aora:When the Primal Avatar has his Primal Spirit active he releses a stong aora that inpowers the frendly spirts around him. as long as they remanin in eyesight of the Primal Avatar frendly targets gain 3 tenp hps. the number of temp hp gose up by 3 every 3 level (ie. level 7 is 6temp hp, level 10 9temp hp and so on to a max of 18 temp hp at level 19)this replaces trapsents
#Primal Avatar:
The purpose of Shield Ally in the first place was to keep the eidolon and summoner close to each other, which is completely unnecessary when they're fused as 1 being. Extending this class-selfish ability randomly into a support ability for any ol' party member just seems pretty strange.
*I disagree. MCAs often break the mold thematically, both in the primary class concept and its assumed Role. Perhaps it's unnecessary for the Synthesist, but not for he Primal Avatar as we are discussing her - I like the shield ally stuff, I don't think it's OP or off-theme.
*You also mention that the Barbarian is a beat-stick - I challenge that that is restrictive, and any way we can expand his Role is great. I don't think it oversteps his purvire or treads on other classes. I don't like to pigeonhole the classes - I think Roles are a good idea in combat, and I like to see all classes be able to slot in to all of them.
(Also you have "Primal Titan" instead of Avatar. I'd save that one up fir something else - it's a keeper!)
maybe this?
Spirt Aora:When the Primal Avatar has his Primal Spirit active he releses a stong aora that inpowers the frendly spirts around him. as long as they remanin in eyesight of the Primal Avatar frendly targets gain 3 tenp hps. the number of temp hp gose up by 3 every 3 level (ie. level 7 is 6temp hp, level 10 9temp hp and so on to a max of 18 temp hp at level 19)this replaces trapsents
Heh heh, well now you're extending the ally aid stuff way too far for me! And a side note, eyesight can be pretty far...
Heh heh, well now you're extending the ally aid stuff way too far for me! And a side note, eyesight can be pretty far...maybe this?
Spirt Aora:When the Primal Avatar has his Primal Spirit active he releses a stong aora that inpowers the frendly spirts around him. as long as they remanin in eyesight of the Primal Avatar frendly targets gain 3 tenp hps. the number of temp hp gose up by 3 every 3 level (ie. level 7 is 6temp hp, level 10 9temp hp and so on to a max of 18 temp hp at level 19)this replaces trapsents
i was think of bard when i drew that up .... but i am of the school of thoght we sould replace like thing for like things. trapsents grow as you level and is a small boon. so that was the thought behind it.
I guess I'm mostly arguing for the theme that's described by the MCA creator. They described it as this powerful spirit that provides the barbarian great martial power as the spirit leeches his rage as a fuel source.
I think if the description were a more shamanistic spirit bonding, then I could definitely see the protector spirit more profoundly, and the ally shielding stuff would work great. However this particular MCA has a powerful extraplanar being feeding off rage to fuel battle, as described in the flavor text, and I feel like that flavor text is an important thing to take into account since the actual writer is no longer part of the discussion for us.
Aye, good point Iorthol. I guess I'm seeing the shield ally stuff more as a corollary effect of being beside/near the whirling dervish of Primal martial power.
mmm i kinda liked the shamanistic way we where taking it "leeches his rage as a fuel source" feels demonic to me wich would make this MCA some thing every differnt from what the flavor text gives us.
Perhaps, to not scrap the defensive ideas altogether, you could write some evolutions that would aid the primal spirit in playing a more defensive, ally supportive role.
For this build, Evolutions are replacing rage powers, so that would be the mechanic to work in to get your customization in.
A couple of ideas I had last night (though the conversation has moved on since then)
How's this instead of Shield Ally:
Primal Distraction: At 4th level, whenever the primal avatar summons her primal spirit, any enemies that are adjacent to her take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and a -2 penalty to the DC of any special abilities they have. This bonus does not apply if the primal avatar is grappled, helpless, paralysed, stunned, or unconscious. This ability replaces trapsense.
Greater Shield Ally (Su): At 12th level, whenever the primal avatar summons her primal spirit, any enemies that are adjacent to her take a -4 penalty on all attack rolls and a -4 penalty to the DC of any special abilities they have. This bonus does not apply if the primal avatar is grappled, helpless, paralysed, stunned, or unconscious. This ability replaces greater rage.
and an idea I had instead of Transportation, how about granting the Evolution Surge spell-line (lesser, normal and greater) as spell-like abilities a number of times per day equal to her Cha modifier.
I like the evolution surge idea. I totally forgot about that spell. That would make an excellent use/day ability.
Nothing scarier than an otherworldly raging barbarian, besides an otherworldly raging barbarian who spontaneously erupts 8 more tentacles.
What do you guys think about purchasing rage powers as evolutions?
i like it but how do you figure the cost of evo point cost for the rage powers, also i think the evolution surges would make great rage powers for any barbarian.
off the top of my head i would say that a rage power is worth 3 evo points
#Primal Avatar:
@Iorthol: I definitely like the point that moving the customisation into the evolution points is an option. As for rage powers/evolutions I think that offering a choice at each level might work - rather than offer evolution points that might contain rage powers, offerthe choi of evolution OR rage powers - similar to the Fellseer gainin the option of a revelation or hex at each progression they are available at. Eh, either way would work.
@Kyras: Interesting ideas, perhaps they could fold into an evolutionary power. And yes, evolutionary surge is pretty cool.
@Generally - perhaps we should rename the evolutions "manifestations" - I know there is some resistance to superficial reskinning, but here it might help if rage powers are to be folded into the evolution suite of choices, and then no matter what the choice (evolution or rage power) they are designated primal Manifestations. Might help to distance it thematically from the eidolon flavor too...
So we have
Option 1: offer rage powers OR evolution points
Option 2: offer rage powers within the evolution point buy.
Difficulty will be determining rate of rage powers in the former and cost of rage powers in the latter. But I definitely like the idea!
Edit: I was writing this while OSW posted, thus it didn't take into account his post.
Since we're swapping Rage and Rage Powers for the Primal Spirit and Evolution Points:
Rage: +4 Str/Con, +2 Will Saves, -2 AC, +2 times level HP, limited skill use and 10 rage powers (one every two levels).
Primal Spirit: Darkvision 60 ft., temp HP (1/2 level + Con mod), scaling bonus to Str/Dex from +0 to +8, scaling bonus to AC equal to +0 to +8, multiattack as a bonus feat, and 24 evolution points.
I'd say that if you count the Primal Spirit form as worth Rage + 2 powers (which seems fair), that'll mean 24 evo points is equal to 8 rage powers. So, I'd agree with counting a rage power as worth 3 evolution points.
Dunno if anyone else would agree with my logic.
your math looks better then my DM (rules lawyer/rule of cool/the dm should never say no) train of thought
Edit: I was writing this while OSW posted, thus it didn't take into account his post.
Since we're swapping Rage and Rage Powers for the Primal Spirit and Evolution Points:
Well we aren't definitely swapping anything yet, but your logic seems good to me.
that was the op's swap so lest not work backwards
#Other
For when we get to any of the MCAs I've worked on, I've been formatting them in Google Docs and tried to fix them up from any of the comments made in here (Links in my profile). Additionally I've drafted up a MCA based off Iorthol's teleporting warrior idea (as one of my players also suggested something like that), but I'm going to hold off posting anything else of mine until we work through the current batch, as I don't want to spam or dominate the thread.
Upon closer looking, you have a power that is self-scaling.
I don't think reintroducing rage-powers into the evolution pool is a smooth move.
#Primal Avatar,
So I tried to think of a unique ability to make this stand out and I thought this up
Spirit Guidance: You may spend 1 round of your primal spirit duration to gain the effects of Augury, with a caster level equal to your Primal Avatar level, once per Primal Spirit Summoning. This is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
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Best use of Augury as a standard action ever-
"Weal or woe, what will happen if I cast Augury this turn?"
And then the universe explodes >:E
Welcome to the thread Juda! We actually have a PDF called Divine Champions on d20pfsrd.com or you can go to our wiki and check out all our other MCAs HERE. The pdf obviously isn't of the ones we are working on here in the thread.
#Primal Avatar
1) If we decide to reintroduce rage powers the best way would be to use OSW's rename of Rage power to "Manifestation", put it at the same interval as rage power (2/4/6/etc.), and either the MCA selects a rage power (which only functions while the spirit is present) or gains 2 evolution points. This would max out evo points at 20 at 20th. At 1st level, when he gains the Primal Spirit ability we can just grant him 2 evolution points, which would really max him out to 22 points at 20th. Remember, the Primal Avatar counts his herself as her base form (bipedal), and so really doesn't get "free" evolutions like the eidolon does. So i think we could grant 2 at 1st, then if he wants more point he gains them 2 at a time at 2nd and every even levle, OR chooses a rage power.
2) RE: Shield Ally/Greater Shield Ally - You need to remember, as much as a barbarian is a front liner, a summoner, though his eidolon can be used as a front liner, he is also a buffer. So, by tweaking SA/GSA to grant the bonuses to adjacent allies instead of himself allwos the MCA to biff his allies without the use of spells, etc., but they need to be close by. So, I don't think it's off theme at all, since we are merging a barbarian and summoner. Part of this is having abilities that duplicate or mimic the secondary class's features, role, etc.
3) I agee, transposition really doesn't fit, but we can definitely replace it with Iorthol's Primal Jump ability. We may want to use Shadow Step instead of Dimension Door as the template for the ability, and have him step through a part of the plane of spirits to where he is getting to. Or flavor dimension door as stepping through the spirit plane? Just a thought.
So, I really think we should keep the SA/GSA abilities as buffs to allies, and then change Transposition to Primal Jump. And then I think we would be able to call it done.
4) As to HD, d12 should be fine, as she's a frontliner and is allowed only light armor, despite the natural armor bonus from the Primal Spirit.
#Primal Avatar, should we maybe put a level penalty on the rage powers like your level -2(minimum 1) or something?
So....Are they MEANT too be MUCH MUCH better then their separate classes or did it just happen that way?
A tier 1 class is tier 1 no matter if it looses some, or gains some extra mass.
But the other classes........ Their very fluffy, and probably fun too play but seem to be a quite a bunch more powerful then their parent classes (Tier 1s not withstanding)
#Primal Avatar
No. This is a barbarian primay MCA. There is already a a reduction in evolution points from the normal number of a summoner. Whether we go with the current (24 points) or the latter version below (22 points).
Here's what the incorporation of rage powers with evolution points would look like.
We'd have to tweak the Primal Spirit entry to this.
Primal Spirit: A primal avatar begins play with the ability to summon a powerful creature called a primal spirit to meld with his own being. The primal avatar wears the spirit like translucent, living armor. The primal spirit mimics all of the primal avatar’s movements, has the same alignment as the primal avatar that calls it, and can speak all of her languages. A primal avatar can summon her spirit for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + her Constitution modifier. At each level after 1st, she can summon her primal spirit for 2 additional rounds. Temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from rage and spells like bear's endurance, do not increase the total number of rounds that a primal avatar can summon her spirit per day. A primal avatar can summon her primal spirit as a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The total number of rounds of summoning her primal spirit per day is renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours do not need to be consecutive. Unlike an eidolon, a primal spirit is not treated as a summoned creature, and is not subject to banishment, or similar effects that affect summoned creatures.
While a primal spirit is summoned, the primal avatar is treated as both an outsider and his original creature type. The spirit grants the primal avatar darkvision 60 feet, a number of temporary hit points equal to 1/2 her primal avatar level (minimum 1) + her Constitution modifier, and a bonus to Strength, Dexterity equal to a summoner’s eidolon of her level, but grants her half the listed bonus to natural armor. It also grants her the same maximum number of natural attacks as an eidolon of her level. If the primal avatar has more natural attacks than the maximum number, she must choose which natural attacks to use in any given round.
In addition, the primal avatar gains 2 evolution points. She can spend evolution points to gain any evolution an eidolon of her level has access to except for the Large, Huge, and Ability Increase evolutions. Whenever the primal avatar gains a level, she must decide how these points are spent, and they are set until she gains another level of primal avatar. She is also treated as having the bipedal base form for the purpose of what evolutions she qualifies for. The primal spirit does not grant the primal avatar a bonus to her base attack bonus, skill points, feats, or special abilities normally gained by to the eidolon (see Table: Primal Spirit Base Statistics).
As the primal avatar gains experience, the primal spirit grants her a primal manifestation. At 2nd level and every two levels thereafter, a primal avatar gains either a rage power or 2 additional evolution points to spend on new evolutions. Evolutions or rage powers are only manifested when the primal spirit is summoned.
At 9th level, a primal avatar gains the Multiattack feat whenever her primal spirit is summoned.
Due to the exposure of intense energy’s generated by summoning her primal spirit, the primal avatar becomes fatigued for a number of rounds equal to two times the number of rounds the primal spirit was summoned.
If the primal avatar should wear an item or come under the effects of a spell that increases her natural armor bonus while her primal spirit is summoned, only the highest bonus from either the armor, spell, or her spirit applies. This ability replaces rage and rage powers.
Guarded Ally (Su): At 4th level, whenever a primal avatar summons her primal spirit, any ally that is adjacent to her receives a +2 shield bonus to his Armor Class and a +2 circumstance bonus on his saving throws. This bonus does not apply if the primal avatar is grappled, helpless, paralyzed, stunned, or unconscious. This ability replaces trap sense.
Primal Jump (Sp): At 8th level, while her primal spirit is summoned, a primal avatar can cast dimension door as a spell-like ability using her caster level. This ability only affects the primal avatar and his primal spirit. The primal avatar can use this ability once per day at 8th level, plus one additional time per day for every five levels beyond 8th.
Greater Guarded Ally (Su): At 12th level, whenever an ally is adjacent to the primal avatar when her primal spirit is summoned, the ally receives a +4 shield bonus to its Armor Class and a +4 circumstance bonus on its saving throws. This bonus does not apply if the primal avatar is grappled, helpless, paralyzed, or unconscious. This ability replaces greater rage.
This would then change the Advancement Table to this:
Table: Primal Avatar
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Fast movement, primal spirit
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Uncanny dodge
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Shield ally
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Improved uncanny dodge
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Damage reduction 1/—
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Primal Jump
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Damage reduction 2/—
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Greater guard ally
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Damage reduction 3/—
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Indomitable will
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Damage reduction 4/—
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Tireless spirit
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Damage reduction 5/—
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Twin avatar
And the Primal Spirit Table would look like this.
Table: Primal Spirit Base Statistics
Class Bouns Armor Str/Dex Max.
Level Hit Points Bonus Bonus Attacks Special
1st +0 +0 +0 3 Darkvision 60 ft.
2nd +1 +1 +2 3 Primal manifestation (+2 evolution points or 1 rage power)
3rd +1 +1 +2 3 —
4th +2 +1 +2 4 Primal manifestation
5th +2 +2 +2 4 —
6th +3 +2 +2 4 Primal manifestation
7th +3 +3 +2 4 —
8th +4 +3 +4 4 Primal manifestation
9th +4 +3 +4 5 Multiattack
10th +5 +4 +4 5 Primal manifestation
11th +5 +4 +4 5 —
12th +6 +5 +4 5 Primal manifestation
13th +6 +5 +4 5 —
14th +7 +5 +6 6 Primal manifestation
15th +7 +6 +6 6 —
16th +8 +6 +6 6 Primal manifestation
17th +8 +7 +6 6 —
18th +9 +7 +6 6 Primal manifestation
19th +9 +7 +6 7 —
20th +10 +8 +8 7 Primal manifestation
So....Are they MEANT too be MUCH MUCH better then their separate classes or did it just happen that way?
A tier 1 class is tier 1 no matter if it looses some, or gains some extra mass.
But the other classes........ Their very fluffy, and probably fun too play but seem to be a quite a bunch more powerful then their parent classes (Tier 1s not withstanding)
Welcome ujjjjjjjjjj!
Much Much better is subjective. Different from the core or base class, yes. The process we use is similar to the process Pathfinder is using to create archetypes. They swap out a class feature, and swap in a new one or approximately equal power level.
what we are doing is using that process to swap our a class feature from the primary class, and swap in a class feature (or features, depending on the feature being swapped out) from the secondary class. Thus, creating a gestalt-esque feeling of multiclassing, though keeping the power balance in line with the primary class. Thus, the reasone they are called Multiclass Archetypes. They are similar to any other class archetype, but much more comprehensive, and designed as an alternate method to multiclassing, as the current version is not well liked as far as I've seen. Part of the balancing process is the primary class gaining secondary class features at either 1 or more levels later than the secondary class gains it, or reducing the numerical factors (such as evolution points for an eidoon) or certain features functioning at level -3 (like a ranger's animal companion), etc.
Multiclass Archetypes are a very robust and customizable approach to multiclassing. Of course, you occasionally get an MCA that may be a bit more powerful or even less powerful than the Primary class, but none of the different core and base classes are perfectly balanced with each other. However, we do our best to keep them pretty balanced through an intensive process, as you would see on the thread. Even after that, if we've accepted a certain MCA for the wiki, the five of us who make up the Multiclass Productions crew, go over them again to make sure.
Anyway apon re-reading most of them they are quite cool.
I do wish that you could clarify about "Bonus Class ability" feats. Like Bonus Hex, Discovery, exetera.
Could you clarify if those work or not?
So....Are they MEANT too be MUCH MUCH better then their separate classes or did it just happen that way?
A tier 1 class is tier 1 no matter if it looses some, or gains some extra mass.
But the other classes........ Their very fluffy, and probably fun too play but seem to be a quite a bunch more powerful then their parent classes (Tier 1s not withstanding)
which ones are giving you this impression?
So....Are they MEANT too be MUCH MUCH better then their separate classes or did it just happen that way?
A tier 1 class is tier 1 no matter if it looses some, or gains some extra mass.
But the other classes........ Their very fluffy, and probably fun too play but seem to be a quite a bunch more powerful then their parent classes (Tier 1s not withstanding)
For my Homebrew, I put MCA's at a +1 power lvl (lvl adjustment if you will) compared to other base classes, where a gestalt combo is +2. Combining skill, weapon and save progressions edge them out just a bit over a single base class.
Idk if that helps you get an idea of the balance.
In general, an MCA counts its level for both its primary and secondary class for the purpose of qualifying for feats, unless it says otherwise. As long as an MCA has the necessary class feature (Hex, Discovery, etc.), it can choose the appropriate feats, such as Extra Hex, Extra Discovery, etc.
If you are refring to an MCA with the Bonus Feat class feature, its will specify what feats can be chosen. But I belive you were refering to the above references.
EDIT: Again balance is subjective. Byrdology gives MCAs a +1 over base classes, where we would in general give them a +0, thought there are those that are +1.
Some, but after review they aren't THAT bad.....I think I have to take my words back.
You seem to be putting allot of effort into this. Maybe Il try too throw my hat into the ring once.
We (the 5 that constitute the Multiclass Productions)have been perfecting the process for over 2 years. The point of this thread is to introduce the process, and hopefully others will take what they learn here and go make their own in their homebrew campaigns. But, we are also here to help anyon realize their own MCAs. There aren;t many threads where you get one-on-one time with the actual people who came up with the concept, but that's what we wanted to maintain.
So, if you have an idea for an MCA, be my guest. Just remember, for the best help and quickest results, it behooves you to come up with your genreal flavor and role for the MCa, the primary and secondary classes you want to use, decide on what class features you'd like to swap out/swap in, and then post your concept in the same format that we post ours (name spoiler, list the primary, secondary, weapon profs, skills, class features,e etc, and a progression table). That way we can get down to the nitty gritty and work out your MCA as quickly as possible.
Personally, I'm letting my players use MCAs without any level adjustment or anything like that. There's enough balance difference between the official class and archetypes, let only differences in system mastery between players, that any power variation due to using an MCA should be balanced out in the end. Also in my group, provided everyone has fun, no one seems to mind any slight differences.
I'm also letting my players take an MCA as their favoured class to gain the bonus on every level up (I'd let them choose either +1 HP, +1 Skill Rank or any applicable racial favoured class bonuses for either class used to make the MCA provided they still make sense) and qualify for any feats or magic items they may qualify for due to class features (for example one of my players who helped me write up, and is playing, the Blackpowder Assassin, his character will count as having both the Grit and Ki Pool class features for feats or magic items, within reason. So he'll be able to use both a Gunman's Duster and a Ring of Ki Mastery - I'll see how overpowered this is once they get into higher levels.)
@Elghinn - if any of my MCAs are accepted onto the wiki, will I get a chance to discuss any changes made?
#Primal Avatar
That seems rather nicely done. I like the choice between Evolution Points and Rage Powers. Though are there any powers they should be limited from taking?
@Alfray: Generally, once we've passed an MCA on the thread, there usually isn't much left to do aside from cosmetic issues or balance issues. That said, if there is something that we find blaringly problematic, we usually just solve it amongst the 5 of us. As much as we'd like to involve every concept's originator in the final FINAL processes, it just isn't feasible to do. So, likely no. But we tend to keep things pretty close to the original seen on the thread.
#Primal Avatar
I'm not sure about the rage powers. We may need to take a look.
welcome ujjjjjjjjjj, The MCA guys are great at including feedback from anyone and letting people submit their ideas. And it allows for really awesome characters like the battle adept who takes the battle cleric style and makes it more fighty:). Right now, there is a bit of a backlog of MCAs being worked on, but don't let that stop you from contributing. And the more people who contribute the more likely the end result is to be balanced.
#Primal Avatar.
I think with Elghinn's latest changes things look pretty good.
@Elghinn, that seems fair enough. So far I think only one of mine (the Trench Infantryman) was reviewed in depth and I'm fairly happy with where it is currently. I think the Blackpower Assassin might be at a decent balance point, but it's in the queue for development. The Bloodborn Magus I've made some changes to from the suggestions posted here, but again it's in the queue and I'm happy to wait and help out with feedback on all of the MCAs posted that I feel I have something constructive to say. I do apologise if it comes across as I'm drafting up too many MCAs, I like the idea and potential combinations and concepts you can use it to create.
@ujjjjjjjjjj
I agree with what Browman said. Everyone here seems to really supportive of any submissions posted and seem to all over different points of view from different playstyles and experiences with the game. I wouldn't say I've spotted anything in passing that seems massively overpowered, yet.
#Primal Avatar
My concerns were that there are a couple of rage powers that grant natural attacks, these will conflict with spending evolution points to gain them instead.
#Primal Avatar
My concerns were that there are a couple of rage powers that grant natural attacks, these will conflict with spending evolution points to gain them instead.
We could just state that if a Rage power is gained that duplicates the effects of an evolution, the rage power trumps the evolution (as it is a Barbarian primary) and the evolution cannot be selected. That way there isn't multiples of the same effects.
But, then, if someone has 4 arms and his rage power grants natural attacks, and the CMA wants the same attacks on his extra appendages, how would we deal with that if he's restricted from selecting the evolution?
Perhaps we could just restrict her to beaing able to choose any Rage Power that DOES NOT duplicate the effects of an evolution. That way, evolutions can function to add the same natural attacks to multiple appendages without hitting a problem with RPs of similar effect.
Restricting the Primal Avatar from choosing any rages powers that duplicate any evolutions seems like the most elegant way to design the ability.
Yeah, something like this.
"A primal avatar is restricted from choosing any rage power that duplicates the effects of a similar evolution."
*nods* That makes sense. In which case this MCA looks nicely wrapped up to me.
#primal avatar, I might throw that at my players next game just to see how it goes. It sounds like it would make a cool enemy.
Let us know how it goes. I'm running Reign of Winter and am debating throwing a Pumpkin Bomber at my players at some point.
Hmmm. I think I found one thats WAY too good:
Astral Captain. Its incredibly optimized, even with diminished spell-casting. Mainly because the summoner is already pretty amazing, and this is the uber version.
I suggest replacing the armor training the Astral Captain gets with an enchantment bonus. Its a subtle change, but fundamentally worse.
Its too much because it mixes too much together to create the ultimate summoner.
Im not sure what to change about it, or how too fix its issues.
@Alfray: Generally, once we've passed an MCA on the thread, there usually isn't much left to do aside from cosmetic issues or balance issues. That said, if there is something that we find blaringly problematic, we usually just solve it amongst the 5 of us. As much as we'd like to involve every concept's originator in the final FINAL processes, it just isn't feasible to do. So, likely no. But we tend to keep things pretty close to the original seen on the thread.
#Primal Avatar
I'm not sure about the rage powers. We may need to take a look.
An aside to this- those who hit Contributor Status, like Bardess, are more likely to be called in. But even then it's pretty rare.
@ujjjjjjjjjj
We TRY to get the balance to about +0, but as Byrdology said, +1 is probably more like it for a number of them. A human Esoteric Chemist is probably about as powerful as, say, a tiefling wizard. A half-elf Erudite Bard would likely match up with an Aaismar bard.
In other words, a small enough power difference that it doesn't really hurt most games.
I would say It would. It gets EVERYTHING a fighter gets -4 worth of Training in weapons and armor or weapon mastery.
Even a +1 is WAY too small. +3 minimum.
Hmmm. I think I found one thats WAY too good:
Astral Captain. Its incredibly optimized, even with diminished spell-casting. Mainly because the summoner is already pretty amazing, and this is the uber version.
I suggest replacing the armor training the Astral Captain gets with an enchantment bonus. Its a subtle change, but fundamentally worse.
Its too much because it mixes too much together to create the ultimate summoner.
Im not sure what to change about it, or how too fix its issues.
Didn't see this post when I made my last one, ujjjjjjjjjj.
And hm. It's one of Flak's, so we'll wait till he can comment.
#Primal Avatar: I'm happy with the last treatment you presented El, with those last changes to Rage powers suggested by Alfray.
Actually I would suggest, that if a caster has full spell progression, then they only have 1 good save. Thats my tip I guess.
So here's what we're looking at then. The majority of us good to move on?
Some barbarians fuel their rage through arcane means. Instead of channeling their rage internally, they draw energy from the primal plane and form it into something only they can control. This spirit avatar feeds off its master’s rage like a parasite. In turn, the primal avatar gains great combat prowess, more than any mortal might normally obtain.
Primary Class: Barbarian.
Secondary Class: Summoner.
Alignment: Any chaotic.
Hit Dice: d12.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The spirit warrior may select three summoner skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal barbarian class skills. The primal caller gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 2 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The spirit warrior is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with natural weapons, and with light armor, but not with shields.
Primal Spirit: A primal avatar begins play with the ability to summon a powerful creature called a primal spirit to meld with his own being. The primal avatar wears the spirit like translucent, living armor. The primal spirit mimics all of the primal avatar’s movements, has the same alignment as the primal avatar that calls it, and can speak all of her languages. A primal avatar can summon her spirit for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + her Constitution modifier. At each level after 1st, she can summon her primal spirit for 2 additional rounds. Temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from rage and spells like bear's endurance, do not increase the total number of rounds that a primal avatar can summon her spirit per day. A primal avatar can summon her primal spirit as a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The total number of rounds of summoning her primal spirit per day is renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours do not need to be consecutive. Unlike an eidolon, a primal spirit is not treated as a summoned creature, and is not subject to banishment, or similar effects that affect summoned creatures.
While a primal spirit is summoned, the primal avatar is treated as both an outsider and his original creature type. The spirit grants the primal avatar darkvision 60 feet, a number of temporary hit points equal to 1/2 her primal avatar level (minimum 1) + her Constitution modifier, and a bonus to Strength, Dexterity equal to a summoner’s eidolon of her level, but grants her half the listed bonus to natural armor. It also grants her the same maximum number of natural attacks as an eidolon of her level. If the primal avatar has more natural attacks than the maximum number, she must choose which natural attacks to use in any given round.
In addition, the primal avatar gains 2 evolution points. She can spend evolution points to gain any evolution an eidolon of her level has access to except for the Large, Huge, and Ability Increase evolutions. Whenever the primal avatar gains a level, she must decide how these points are spent, and they are set until she gains another level of primal avatar. She is also treated as having the bipedal base form for the purpose of what evolutions she qualifies for. The primal spirit does not grant the primal avatar a bonus to her base attack bonus, skill points, feats, or special abilities normally gained by to the eidolon (see Table: Primal Spirit Base Statistics).
As the primal avatar gains experience, the primal spirit grants her a primal manifestation. At 2nd level and every two levels thereafter, a primal avatar gains either a rage power or 2 additional evolution points to spend on new evolutions. Evolutions or rage powers are only manifested when the primal spirit is summoned. A primal avatar is restricted from choosing any rage power that duplicates the effects of a similar evolution.
At 9th level, a primal avatar gains the Multiattack feat whenever her primal spirit is summoned.
Due to the exposure of intense energy’s generated by summoning her primal spirit, the primal avatar becomes fatigued for a number of rounds equal to two times the number of rounds the primal spirit was summoned.
If the primal avatar should wear an item or come under the effects of a spell that increases her natural armor bonus while her primal spirit is summoned, only the highest bonus from either the armor, spell, or her spirit applies. This ability replaces rage and rage powers.
Guarded Ally (Su): At 4th level, whenever a primal avatar summons her primal spirit, any ally that is adjacent to her receives a +2 shield bonus to his Armor Class and a +2 circumstance bonus on his saving throws. This bonus does not apply if the primal avatar is grappled, helpless, paralyzed, stunned, or unconscious. This ability replaces trap sense.
Primal Jump (Sp): At 8th level, while her primal spirit is summoned, a primal avatar can cast dimension door as a spell-like ability using her caster level. This ability only affects the primal avatar and his primal spirit. The primal avatar can use this ability once per day at 8th level, plus one additional time per day for every five levels beyond 8th. This ability replaces
Greater Guarded Ally (Su): At 12th level, whenever an ally is adjacent to the primal avatar when her primal spirit is summoned, the ally receives a +4 shield bonus to its Armor Class and a +4 circumstance bonus on its saving throws. This bonus does not apply if the primal avatar is grappled, helpless, paralyzed, or unconscious. This ability replaces greater rage.
Tireless Spirit: Starting at 17th level, a primal avatar no longer becomes fatigued when her primal spirit is dismissed. This ability replaces tireless rage.
Twin Avatar (Su): At 20th level, a primal avatar can manifest his primal spirit in corporeal form. As a standard action, the primal avatar can create a duplicate of his primal spirit, copying all of her evolutions, form, and abilities. Its Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores change to match the base scores of the primal avatar. The duplicate spirit does not have any gear that the primal avatar is carrying, including magical items. The primal spirit also gains none of the primal avatar’s class features. The primal avatar can maintain this duplicate spirit form by expending 2 rounds of summoning per round. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 2 round increments. The primal avatar can end this effect as a free action. This ability replaces mighty rage.
Table: Primal Avatar
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Fast movement, primal spirit
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Uncanny dodge
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Guarded ally
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Improved uncanny dodge
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Damage reduction 1/—
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Transposition
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Damage reduction 2/—
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Greater guarded ally
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Damage reduction 3/—
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Indomitable will
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Damage reduction 4/—
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Tireless spirit
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Damage reduction 5/—
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Twin avatar
Table: Primal Spirit Base Statistics
Class Bouns Armor Str/Dex Max.
Level Hit Points Bonus Bonus Attacks Special
1st +0 +0 +0 3 Darkvision 60 ft.
2nd +1 +1 +2 3 Primal manifestation
3rd +1 +1 +2 3 —
4th +2 +1 +2 4 Primal manifestation
5th +2 +2 +2 4 —
6th +3 +2 +2 4 Primal manifestation
7th +3 +3 +2 4 —
8th +4 +3 +4 4 Primal manifestation
9th +4 +3 +4 5 Multiattack
10th +5 +4 +4 5 Primal manifestation
11th +5 +4 +4 5 —
12th +6 +5 +4 5 Primal manifestation
13th +6 +5 +4 5 —
14th +7 +5 +6 6 Primal manifestation
15th +7 +6 +6 6 —
16th +8 +6 +6 6 Primal manifestation
17th +8 +7 +6 6 —
18th +9 +7 +6 6 Primal manifestation
19th +9 +7 +6 7 —
20th +10 +8 +8 7 Primal manifestation