Multiclass Archetypes IV: Ultimate Multiclass Archetypes


Homebrew and House Rules

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#Insightful Mind
Why don't we do Canny Defense as 1 Int point per 2 levels and leave it at that and move on. Esssentially you'd gain max of 1/2 your Insightful Mind level in Int bonus to AC if your Int is high enough. That's +10 at 20th, which isn't crazy if you ask me, and he can't wear armor or use shields. Plus, the MCA will also need to have decent stats in Str, Dex, and Int to be an effective Insightful Mind.

Any objections to the +1 Int per 2 levels? Otherwise onto the next MCA.


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

Yeah, there is no size restriction in the MCA. However, by technicality, if you are a Medium character, you can't ride your Abominable Mount (eidolon) as a mount until he can buy the Large evolution (8th level).

I was trying to find rules for riding mounts. Do you need to be 1 size smaller than the mount to be able to ride it? If so, then we may need to find a way for the Abomination Rider to be able to get a Large quadruped eidolon if he's MEdium size so that it can function as a mount for him, since the majority of characters are Medium size races.

Ah. Okay, well then I like Evil Lincoln's idea as a starting point. Either that or making some tweaked and hard-coded Evolution choices to get Large much earlier than 8th level. Like... 1st level. For a mounted class that is kinda necessary...


@OSW
As much as it may suck for the player, I think the best way to solve it would be for any Medium character, the mount automatically gains the Large evolution at 1st, but it counts against his total. Thus he can gain no additional evolution points until 3rd level, at which time he gains 5 (by the chart) or 1 over all (4 pts for Large). Gives Small characters a bit of an edge in the evolution department, but it keeps the base number of evolution points the same overall. Just that a Small character gets his 1st and 2nd elvel evolutions to spend any way he wants, while a Medium character must spend those points on the Large evolution as a manditory thing. I think that's the easiest and most elegant way to go. Still restrict the Small character from getting the Large evolution until 8th.

So this:

Abominable Mount (Su): An abomination rider begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful mount from another plane. This mount is exactly like the summoner’s eidolon, except that the abomination rider must choose an eidolon with the quadruped base form. While riding his mount, the abomination rider does not take an armor check penalty on Ride checks while riding his eidolon. Also, the eidolon is always considered combat trained and begins play with Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. Wearing light armor no way interferes with the connection between master and mount, though the eidolon is still restricted from wearing medium or heavy armor. This supersedes the eidolon’s normal restriction for wearing armor. If the abomination rider is Medium size, his mount gains the Large evolution at 1st level as a permanent evolution, and its cost counts against his total evolution points. Thus, the abomination rider gains no additional evolution points until 3rd level, at which time he can spend the available 1 evolution point and any subsequent points gained from level advancement as he wishes. Small sized abomination riders cannot choose the Large evolution until 8th level, as normal. An abomination rider's eidolon does not gain the share spells special ability. In addition, the eidolon is treated as if it possessed the same teamwork feats as the abomination rider for the purpose of determining whether the abomination rider receives a bonus from his teamwork feats.This ability replaces mount and master tactician.


#Abomination Rider: I have no problem with that at all El. I'd rather have the mount than a fancy pet IF it's a mounted character concept.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

In which if you're moving on to the next one, I believe that's the Bloodborn Magus.

I've made a couple of changes due to some comments that were made when I originally posted it.

Major Changes:
Now swaps spells as a bard, instead of using sorcerer progression.
All class features that were based off Int are now based off Cha (let me know if I missed any)
Arcane Surge no longer limited to a chosen spell when the temp spell slot is made, and I gave an improved version at 11th level.
7th, 8th and 9th level bloodline spells are no longer treated at 6th level spells, instead they are 1/day spell-like abilities, and still require expensive material components.

Bloodborn Magus:

BLOODBORN MAGUS
Although most magi develop their magical talents through years of study, there are those who are simply born with the gift of magic. These bloodborn magi instead dedicate their time to learning how to harness and perfect the magical talents within their blood, often sacrificing their skills with the blade. Having great confidence from their blood-fuelled magic, bloodborn magi are often intimidating foes or cunning diplomats. Still, they are formidable foes that surge with arcane energies and can dominate the battlefield.

Primary Class: Magus
Secondary Class: Sorcerer
Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: d8

Bonus Skills and Ranks: The bloodborn magus may select three sorcerer skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal magus class skills. The bloodborn magus gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 2 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bloodborn magus is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. A bloodborn magus is also proficient with light armor. He can cast magus spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a bloodborn magus wearing medium armor, heavy armor, or a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass bloodborn magus still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

Spellcasting: The bloodborn magus casts arcane spell drawn from the magus spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a bloodborn magus must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class (DC) for a saving throw against a bloodborn magus’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the bloodborn magus’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a bloodborn magus can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Bloodborn Magus Spells per Day. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

The bloodborn magus’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A bloodborn magus begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of the bloodborn magus’s choice. At each new bloodborn magus level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Bloodborn Magus Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a bloodborn magus knows is not affected by his Charisma score.)

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bloodborn magus level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bloodborn magus can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bloodborn magus “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level magus spell the bloodborn magus can cast. A bloodborn magus may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

A bloodborn magus need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.

This modifies spellcasting.

Arcane Pool (Su): A bloodborn magus has a number of points equal to 1/2 his bloodborn magus level (minimum 1) + his Charisma modifier in his arcane pool. Otherwise his arcane pool functions as normal.

This modifies arcane pool.

Spell Combat (Ex): This ability functions as normal, except that the additional penalty to the bloodborn magus's attack rolls is instead based off his Charisma instead of his Intelligence. This modifies spell combat.

Bloodline: At 2nd level a bloodborn magus chooses a sorcerer bloodline and adds the bloodline skill to his list of class skills. This also grants the bloodborn magus access to the bloodline boost magus arcana (see below).

This ability and the bloodline powers gained replaces spellstrike, knowledge pool, and fighter training.

Eschew Materials: A bloodborn magus gains Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at 1st level.

This replaces medium armor.

Bloodline Arcana: At 3rd level a bloodborn magus gains the bloodline arcana for his chosen bloodline.

This replaces the magus arcana gained at 3rd level.

Arcane Surge (Su): At 4th level, the bloodborn magus learns to use his arcane pool to power his spellcasting. As a swift action he can gain an extra spell slot by expending a number of points from his arcane pool equal to the level of the spell slot (minimum 1). This spell slot lasts until it is used to cast a spell or the magus refreshes his spells per day.

This replaces spell recall.

Bloodline Spells: At 4th level and every three levels thereafter (7th, 10th, and so on) the bloodline magus adds his bloodline spells to his spells known, up to his 6th level bloodline spell. These spells are cast as if they were magus spells for the purposes of all other class features. At 20th level he may cast the 7th, 8th and 9th level spells of his bloodline as if they were once per day spell-like abilities, except that he still needs to provide any expensive material components required to cast the spells.

This replaces greater spell access.

Bloodline Powers: At 4th level a bloodborn magus gains the 1st level bloodline power from his bloodline. At 7th, 10th and 19th level he gains his 3rd level, 9th level, and 15th level bloodline powers respectively.

Bonus Feats: A bloodborn magus may choose from his bloodline feats when choosing his bonus feats in addition to the normal selection.

This modifies bonus feats.

Magus Arcana : This functions as normal, except that the bloodborn magus gains his first magus arcana at 6th level. Also any magus arcana that depend on Intelligence instead depend on Charisma.

This modifies magus arcana.

Improved Arcane Surge (Su): At 11th level, the bloodborn magus’s ability to gain extra spell slots using his arcane pool becomes more efficient. Whenever he gains an extra spell slot with arcane surge, he expends a number of points from his arcane pool equal to 1/2 the spell’s level (minimum 1). In addition he may use this extra spell slot to cast a spell, of the same level, from the magus spell list that he does not know by expending a number of points from his arcane pool equal to the spell’s level (minimum 1). The bloodborn magus cannot apply any metamagic feats to this spell.

This replaces improved spell recall.

Medium Armor (Ex):[/b] At 13th level, a bloodborn magus gains proficiency with medium armor. A bloodborn magus can cast magus spells while wearing medium armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a bloodborn magus wearing heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component.

This replaces heavy armor.

Table: Bloodborn Magus
Level Base Attack Fort Ref Will Special
Bonus Save Save Save

1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Arcane pool, cantrips, spell combat, eschew materials
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Bloodline
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Bloodline arcana
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Arcane surge, bloodline power, bloodline spell
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Bonus feat
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Magus arcana
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 Bloodline power, bloodline spell
8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Improved spell combat
9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Magus arcana
10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 Bloodline spell
11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Bonus feat, improved arcane surge
12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Magus arcana
13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Bloodline spell, bloodline power, medium armor
14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Greater spell combat
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Magus arcana
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Counterstrike
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Bonus feat
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Magus arcana
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Bloodline spell, bloodline power
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Bloodline spells (7th, 8th, 9th), true magus

Table: Bloodborn Magus Spells per Day
Level 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th

1st 1 — — — — —
2nd 2 — — — — —
3rd 3 — — — — —
4th 3 1 — — — —
5th 4 2 — — — —
6th 4 3 — — — —
7th 4 3 1 — — —
8th 4 4 2 — — —
9th 5 4 3 — — —
10th 5 4 3 1 — —
11th 5 4 4 2 — —
12th 5 5 4 3 — —
13th 5 5 4 3 1 —
14th 5 5 4 4 2 —
15th 5 5 5 4 3 —
16th 5 5 5 4 3 1
17th 5 5 5 4 4 2
18th 5 5 5 5 4 3
19th 5 5 5 5 5 4
20th 5 5 5 5 5 5

Table: Bloodborn Magus Spells Known
Level 0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th

1st 4 2 — — — — —
2nd 5 3 — — — — —
3rd 6 4 — — — — —
4th 6 4 2 — — — —
5th 6 4 3 — — — —
6th 6 4 4 — — — —
7th 6 5 4 2 — — —
8th 6 5 4 3 — — —
9th 6 5 4 4 — — —
10th 6 5 5 4 2 — —
11th 6 6 5 4 3 — —
12th 6 6 5 4 4 — —
13th 6 6 5 5 4 2 —
14th 6 6 6 5 4 3 —
15th 6 6 6 5 4 4 —
16th 6 6 6 5 5 4 2
17th 6 6 6 6 5 4 3
18th 6 6 6 6 5 4 4
19th 6 6 6 6 5 5 4
20th 6 6 6 6 6 5 5

Loses:
Spellstrike
Magus Arcana (3rd)
Spell Recall
Knowledge pool
Medium Armor
Fighter Training
Improved Spell recall
Heavy Armor
Greater Spell Access

Modified:
Spellcasting
Arcane Pool
Spell Combat
Bonus Feats
Magus Arcana

Gains:
Bloodline
Eschew Materials
Bloodline Arcana
Bloodline Spells
Bloodline Powers
Arcane Surge
Improved Arcane Surge
Medium Armor

New Magus Arcana

Bloodline Boost
You can draw upon arcane energy to power your bloodline powers.
Prerequisites: Must have a sorcerer bloodline.
Benefit: When you use a bloodline power that can be used for 3 + your Charisma modifier times per day, you may instead expend 1 point from your arcane pool to use this power.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Apologies for double posting, I just noticed that the Pumpkin Bomber's changes to familiar would stack with the crafting bonuses provided by the Valet familiar archetype. Not sure what you'd want to do about this. I'd suggest giving the +2 competence bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks for the alchemy class ability only, and making a note that the Valet familiar archetype synergies well with the MCA in the familiar section.

Additionally the Primal Avatar page on the wiki has a BAB progression in the bonus hit points column of the table for the Primal Spirit.


#Bloodborn Magus:
* A solid treatment that I'm sure the caster-fans can critique better than I. I'm not getting much wow from it personally, I think I want more than either the two classes actually have to give - though, maybe not - I guess I'd like to see the arcane pool merged with the bloodline a little more succinctly, like a... Blood pool that isn't just a reskinned arcane pool that somehow integrated the bloodline powers with the Magus weapon enhancement - thematic bloodline themed weapon special qualities to replace those normally granted with arcane pool expenditure. Would require a massive list I guess...

* Eschew materials at 1st level replaces Medium Armor gained usually at 7th?!? I can see the flavor, bloodline sorceror casting et al, but that seems like a crazy swap - perhaps not in terms of power (it's kinda apples and oranges for a start) but level-wise it's a difficult one to balance.

*New Arcana: Bloodline boost: I like the idea, but am confused as to the execution. Does this allow you to use the power one extra time with an arcane pool expenditure; or 3+ mod more times with expenditure; or does it completely replace the usual 3+ mod uses?


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

#Bloodborn Magus:

*If there's a way to functional merge the arcane pool with bloodlines, without going through and making lists/exceptions/ruling for all the different types of powers you can gain, I'm all ears. Or what we could do is limit the MCA to a limited number of bloodlines and write up suitable uses for the arcana pool for those?

*Eschew materials <-> Medium armour, may front load the MCA a tad, however I figured medium armour is worth slightly more so dropping it in exchange for a limited bonus feat early on should be okay.

* Bloodline Boost: Might be easier with an example;

Bloodborn Magus with Cha 16, the Elemental (Cold) bloodline and the Bloodline Boost arcana.

He may use the Elemental Ray 6/day or expend an arcane pool point to use it without using up any of his uses be day.


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

@Evil Lincoln - welcome to the thread EL! I'm quite the fan of your work, and doubly glad you're interested in the Abomination Rider.

I'm a bit confused by your post - do you mean the size of the Eidolon? There is no stipulation for medium race for the actual Abomination Rider in the wiki writeup.

Hey thanks! For what it's worth, I've always been a fan of the MCA concept, I just don't do class design much so I haven't spoken up.

Elghinn has it right about the large thing. Early access to the Large evolution is pretty nice... there are some great stat boosts that come with it that will keep that mount alive. I think it is balanced though, because that locks the mount out of extra attacks and pounce, which are easily the highest value evolutions, for a few levels.

But make sure you're not forcing an overcharge for small cavaliers too. A halfling abomination rider might be pretty upset if he has to have a large mount; the main reason to play a small mounted character is the ability to ride in tight quarters.


#Insightful Mind: Is this one done El?

#Bloodborn Magus:
* Arcane Pool/Bloodline mix - I don't think a restriction is necessary. Just thought it might be a cool idea - we could plot a bunch of them and add more later. Anyway, it was just a thought.

* Eschew Materials for Medium Armor. Oh, I get that, just is a massive level differential. That's my concern - the front loading, regardless of power level. I others are fine with it then okay.

* Bloodline Surge. Ok. Clear now!!


Evil Lincoln wrote:
But make sure you're not forcing an overcharge for small cavaliers too. A halfling abomination rider might be pretty upset if he has to have a large mount; the main reason to play a small mounted character is the ability to ride in tight quarters.

.

Yep. It's okay - El made this stipulation above in his rewrite:

Abomination Rider wrote:

If the abomination rider is Medium size, his mount gains the Large evolution at 1st level as a permanent evolution, and its cost counts against his total evolution points. Thus, the abomination rider gains no additional evolution points until 3rd level, at which time he can spend the available 1 evolution point and any subsequent points gained from level advancement as he wishes. Small sized abomination riders cannot choose the Large evolution until 8th level, as normal.

.

(Emphasis mine)


#insightful Mind, before we toss this on the done pile, can we see it in completion. I find that looking at a complete picture will see if it's lacking.


Groovy.


#Arcane Venator, I hate to beat this dead horse, but a current Prc thread opened the wound. would it be too much to ask that their arcane bane not apply to outsiders unless they specifically have levels in an Arcane Spellcasting class? It still really bugs me that an Arcane Hunter gets a damage bonus on Solars and aasimar clerics.


INSIGHTFUL MIND - Final:

Long ago, a group of the brightest of elves established an acetic order centuries ago. This order utilizes a combination of mental prowess and physical conditioning to access an internal reservoir of arcane power. Unlike the magus, the insightful mind doesn't just seek to blend magic and combat, but to improve themselves as well. In the Golarion setting, such a process would be invented by elves pursuing the “Brightness”.

Primary Class: Monk.
Secondary Class: Wizard.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d8.

Bonus Skills and Ranks: The insightful mind may select three wizard skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal monk class skills. The insightful mind gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The insightful mind is proficient with the brass knuckles*, cestus*, club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shortspear, short sword, shuriken, siangham, sling, spear, and temple sword*. Insightful minds are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, an insightful mind loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities. (*Advanced Player’s Guide)

Illuminated Spellbook: An insightful mind finds less time to research new spells, but has mastered an elaborate manner of scribing those he learns. At 1st level, the insightful mind incorporates illuminated images into her arcane writings. He begins with an illuminated spellbook containing all cantrips plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The insightful mind also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook. Creatures take a –4 penalty on skill checks involving the insightful mind's spellbook. The insightful mind's spells take one extra page each in his spellbook. At each new insightful mind level, he gains only one new spell of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new insightful mind level) for his spellbook. At every odd level beyond 1st, if he has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, the chosen spell must be from his specialty school. At any time, an insightful mind can also add spells found in another insightful mind’s or wizard’s spellbook to his. In all other respects, an insightful mind's spellbook functions as a normal wizard's spellbook.

Spellcasting: Beginning at 1st level, an insightful mind gains the ability to cast arcane spells which are drawn from the insightful mind spell list. An insightful mind must choose and prepare his spells in advance.

To prepare or cast a spell, an insightful mind must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an insightful mind's spell is 10 + the spell level + the insightful mind's Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, an insightful mind can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Insightful Mind. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score. When Table: Insightful Mind indicates that the insightful mind gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Intelligence score for that spell level.

An insightful mind may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his illuminated spellbook. While studying, the insightful mind decides which spells to prepare. An insightful mind otherwise learns, prepares, and casts spells as a wizard. This ability replaces flurry of blows, maneuver training, slow fall, high jump, wholeness of body, abundant step, diamond soul, quivering palm, timeless body, tongue of the sun and moon, and empty body.

Arcane School: At 1st level, an insightful mind gains the wizard’s arcane school ability and gains his first listed school power. At 3rd level, he gains his second listed school power. At 8th level he gains his third listed school power. This ability otherwise functions as arcane school and replaces stunning fist, the reduction to his unarmed strike ability, and still mind.

Canny Defense: At 1st level, when wearing no armor and not using a shield, an insightful mind adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per two insightful mind levels (maximum +10) as a dodge bonus to his Armor Class and his CMD. If the insightful mind is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus, he also loses this bonus. This ability replaces the monk’s AC bonus.

Unarmed Strike: This is exactly like the monk ability of the same name, except that an insightful mind reduces his unarmed damage dice by one step, as shown on Table: Insightful mind.

Bonus Feats: This is exactly like the monk ability of the same name, except that the insightful mind can also choose a metamagic feat, an item creation, or Spell Mastery. The insightful mind must still meet all prerequisites for these feats, including caster level minimums.

Fast Movement: At 3rd level, an insightful mind’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor and not carrying a medium or heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the insightful mind's speed because of any load carried or armor worn. This bonus stacks with any other bonuses to the insightful mind's land speed. This changes the monk’s fast movement ability.

Ki Pool (Su): This is exactly like the monk ability of the same name, except that an insightful mind uses his Intelligence modifier instead of his Wisdom modifier to determine his ki pool.

Ki Metamagic (Su): At 8th level, an insightful mind can use his ki pool to reduce the spell cost of using metamagic feats. As a swift action, he can spend a number of ki points up to the level increase of the metamagic feat to reduce it by the same amount (minimum 0). For example, a 4th level insightful mind casts burning hands with the Elemental Spell metamagic feat. This would normally expend a 2nd level spell slot (1st–level spell plus the metamagic feat’s +1 level increase). He can spend 1 ki point as a swift action to reduce the Elemental Spell feat’s level increase to 0, allowing him to cast burning hands with the Elemental Spell feat using only a 1st–level spell slot. An insightful mind can only affect a metamagic spell if he can normally cast it using his available spell slots. Thus, a 7th level insightful could not reduce the level increase of a 1st–level spell using the Maximize Spell feat since he has no access to 4th level spell slots. This ability replaces the reduction to the monk’s fast movement ability.

Ki Mastery (Su): At 20th level, an insightful mind can perform any ki ability for 1 ki point fewer (minimum 0) than usual. If the number of ki points to perform an ability is reduced to 0, the insightful mind can perform this ability as long as he has at least 1 ki point. If a ki ability could already be performed as long as he had at least 1 ki point, he can now perform that ability even when he has no ki points. This ability replaces perfect self.

INSIGHTFUL MIND SPELL LIST
Insightful minds gain access to the following spells.

0-Level Insightful Mind Spells—arcane mark, bleed, dancing lights, detect magic, detect poison, disrupt undead, ghost sound, light, mage hand, mending, message, open/close, prestidigitation, read magic, resistance.

1st-Level Insightful Mind Spells—air bubble, alarm, animate rope, anticipate peril, cause fear, color spray, comprehend languages, detect secret doors, detect undead, disguise self, ear-piercing scream, endure elements, enlarge person, erase, expeditious excavation, expeditious retreat, feather fall, hold portal, identify, jump, ki arrow, magic aura, magic weapon, protection from chaos/evil/good/law, ray of enfeeblement, reduce person, see alignment, shield, silent image, sleep, true strike, ventriloquism.

2nd-Level Insightful Mind Spells—alter self, arcane lock, bear's endurance, blindness/deafness, blood transcription, blur, bull's strength, cat's grace, command undead, create treasure map, darkvision, detect thoughts, eagle's splendour, elemental speech, false life, fiery shuriken, fox's cunning, glitterdust, knock, levitate, locate object, magic mouth, make whole, minor image, mirror image, misdirection, obscure object, owl's wisdom, protection from arrows, pyrotechnics, resist energy, rope trick, scare, see invisibility, share language, share memory, snapdragon fireworks, spectral hand, spider climb, steal breath, whispering wind.

3rd-Level Insightful Mind Spells—aqueous orb, arcane sight, blink, blood biography, clairaudience/clairvoyance, cloak of winds, cloak of winds, deep slumber, dispel magic, displacement, flame arrow, fly, gaseous form, gentle repose, halt undead, haste, hold person, illusory script, keen edge, locate weakness, magic circle against chaos/evil/good/law, magic weapon (greater), major image, nondetection, protection from energy, ray of exhaustion, secret page, seek thoughts, shrink item, slow, tongues, water breathing.

4th-Level Insightful Mind Spells—animate dead, contagion, dimensional anchor, enlarge person (mass), false life (greater), fear, ghost wolf, globe of invulnerability (lesser), illusory wall, mnemonic enhancer, phantasmal killer, rainbow pattern, reduce person (mass), remove curse, scrying, stone shape, stoneskin, wall of fire, wall of ice.

5th-Level Insightful Mind Spells—animal growth, blight, break enchantment, dismissal, fabricate, hold monster, icy prison, interposing hand, magic jar, overland flight, passwall, permanency, planar adaptation, sending, shadow conjuration, telekinesis, transmute mud to rock, transmute rock to mud, wall of force, wall of stone.

6th-Level Insightful Mind Spells—antimagic field, circle of death, contagion (greater), control water, create undead, curse (major, ), disintegrate, dispel magic (greater), enemy hammer, eyebite, flesh to stone, globe of invulnerability, guards and wards, mage's lucubration, move earth, rampart, scrying (greater), shadow evocation, shadow walk, sirocco, stone to flesh, transformation, undeath to death, wall of iron.

Table: Insightful Mind
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Unarmed Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special Damage 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th

1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Arcane school, bonus feat, 1d4 3 1 — — — — —
unarmed strike
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Bonus feat, evasion 1d4 4 2 — — — — —
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Fast movement 1d4 4 3 — — — — —
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Ki pool (magic) 1d6 4 3 1 — — — —
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Purity of body 1d6 4 4 2 — — — —
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Bonus feat 1d6 5 4 3 — — — —
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Ki metamagic 1d6 5 4 3 1 — — —
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 1d8 5 4 4 2 — — —
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 Improved evasion 1d8 5 5 4 3 — — —
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Bonus feat, ki pool (lawful) 1d8 5 5 4 3 1 — —
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Diamond body 1d8 5 5 4 4 2 — —
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 1d10 5 5 5 4 3 — —
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 1d10 5 5 5 4 3 1 —
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 Bonus feat 1d10 5 5 5 4 4 2 —
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 1d10 5 5 5 5 4 3 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Ki pool (adamantine) 2d6 5 5 5 5 4 3 1
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 2d6 5 5 5 5 4 4 2
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 Bonus feat 2d6 5 5 5 5 5 4 3
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 2d6 5 5 5 5 5 5 4
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Ki mastery 2d8 5 5 5 5 5 5 5


#Arcane Venator

Hows this?

Arcane Bane (Su): This is exactly like the inquisitor’s bane ability, except that the bane special weapon ability property applies only to creatures that have levels in an arcane spellcasting class (including alchemist), that have racial spell-like abilities, or are identified using the Knowledge (arcana) skill (such as constructs, dragons, and magical beasts). Outsiders can only be the target of this ability if they specifically have levels in an arcane spellcasting class.


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

#Arcane Venator

Hows this?

Arcane Bane (Su): This is exactly like the inquisitor’s bane ability, except that the bane special weapon ability property applies only to creatures that have levels in an arcane spellcasting class (including alchemist), that have racial spell-like abilities, or are identified using the Knowledge (arcana) skill (such as constructs, dragons, and magical beasts). Outsiders can only be the target of this ability if they specifically have levels in an arcane spellcasting class.

thank you, much better.


[threadjack: plz consider backing Kobold Press' Deep Magic Kickstarter. Ther's a little over 1 hour to go, and if we reach 2014 backers we get an Adventure Path added!!! Just over 100 more backers! Check the rewards - I think you'll find getting over 500 new spells is pretty good!!! [/threadjack]


*looks up*

... Guys, you made the Canny Defense ability BETTER. Mildly so, but still.

Seriously, that ain't gonna pass the final exams in the thread when the time comes, y'know :P


Alright, so.

The issues with Canny Defense are twofold-

1) It stacks with anything.
2) It becomes an easy +10. Before, it was by endgame- now, it's by midgame.

My solution, therefore, is also twofold.

1) Armor bonus, functions as Mage Armor.
2) Max it at +8.

As far as scaling; I'm thinking start at +3, then raise by +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th.

This replicates Mage Armor, trading out +1 for the all-day. By the end, it's basically just free Bracers of Mage Armor. This is a lot easier on the scale to balance out.

(( Also, for those stating the Kensai magus is in the same category- it really isn't. This is a Monk/Wizard, for one; for two, the Magus doesn't get top buff-by-spell level. This guy lacks polymorph and Transformation, true, but he still gets a LOT of goodies- and defensive spells the Magus will lack. ))


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

#Insightful Mind

Should this MCA (and a bunch of the other MCAs based off the Monk) gain the ability at 7th level to treat his unarmed attacks as Cold Iron/Silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction? I believe it was added in the most recent errata for the Core Rulebook.

@Raider

That solution should work rather well, though I'd suggest also adding the same numerical bonus (with a suitable type) to his CMD as well.


Why is the Abomination Rider restricted from Order of the Dragon?


@Evil Lincon- We usually do such restrictions based on either flavor or because someone spotted a potential imbalance. In that case, I think it might have been the Act as One ability? Not certain. Elghinn, you recall why?

@Alfray- Hm. We could do something for that, certainly.


#insightful mind, I am just not seeing the broken issue here. looking over the spell list in the final draft, I am not seeing a lot of good ac buffs outside of cats grace and situational ones like the protection spells. heck they don't even have mage armor on their list. And by the by, the Kensai Magus is closest mechanical comparison to the class, doubly so since we are comparing the one ability they have in common and the kensai gets Ablative Barrier and twice as good canny defense (before implementing your suggestion). With your suggestion, he is going to have seriously invest in resources to keep his AC viable until fourth level, where he will be required to learn and use cat's grace to keep up. this guy isn't meant to be a squishy caster standing in the back, and he's no bard(who will have better ac) when it comes to the support role, so if he can't wade into combat there isn't much hope for him.


Raiderrpg wrote:
@Evil Lincon- We usually do such restrictions based on either flavor or because someone spotted a potential imbalance. In that case, I think it might have been the Act as One ability? Not certain. Elghinn, you recall why?

I don't see anything too abusive in Act as One — in fact, since the cavalier is likely mounted that means his ability to take his own movement is wasted.

I only ask because the cavalier/summoner RAW I'm considering for abomination rider is an Order of the Dragon, mainly for flavor since he rides a dragon eidolon. I imagine that would be a popular use of this class, so I don't see a pressing need to lock out certain orders. (If my abomination were a dire lion, I'd be pretty sad that Lion was locked out too).

So Elghinn, is there a rationale?


Evil Lincoln wrote:
Raiderrpg wrote:
@Evil Lincon- We usually do such restrictions based on either flavor or because someone spotted a potential imbalance. In that case, I think it might have been the Act as One ability? Not certain. Elghinn, you recall why?

I don't see anything too abusive in Act as One — in fact, since the cavalier is likely mounted that means his ability to take his own movement is wasted.

I only ask because the cavalier/summoner RAW I'm considering for abomination rider is an Order of the Dragon, mainly for flavor since he rides a dragon eidolon. I imagine that would be a popular use of this class, so I don't see a pressing need to lock out certain orders. (If my abomination were a dire lion, I'd be pretty sad that Lion was locked out too).

So Elghinn, is there a rationale?

yeah the once per combat bit doesn't exactly strike me overpowered either.


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

#Insightful Mind

Why don't we do Canny Defense as 1 Int point per 2 levels and leave it at that and move on. Esssentially you'd gain max of 1/2 your Insightful Mind level in Int bonus to AC if your Int is high enough. That's +10 at 20th, which isn't crazy if you ask me, and he can't wear armor or use shields. Plus, the MCA will also need to have decent stats in Str, Dex, and Int to be an effective Insightful Mind.

Any objections to the +1 Int per 2 levels? Otherwise onto the next MCA.

wait a minute, did you see me suggest the same thing on the previous page, or did we have the same exact idea within 24 hours?*Twilight zone theme song plays*


Forgive me if this has already been asked, I've done some digging and haven't been able to find an answer.

I stumbled upon the multiclass archetypes and the party I am GMing for found that this concept would be a lot cooler than the standard multiclassing. What I have not figured out, however, was how to actually apply the multiclass archetype.

While the Divine Champions pdf addresses the base class and such, we've come up with some questions.

Does the character have to multiclass, using pathfinder rules to be 1/1 in the primary and secondary class of the archetype? i.e. to become a Blackguard Assassin would the character have to be a first level Antipaladin, and Rogue, with Antipaladin as the favored class? Or does the multiclass archetype just act as a normal archetype for the class, while replacing some Antipaladin mechanics with rogue mechanics? An example for this would be the Antipaladin becoming the Blackguard Assassin at level 2, when the sneak attack mechanic comes into play.


hitokiribattosai wrote:

Forgive me if this has already been asked, I've done some digging and haven't been able to find an answer.

I stumbled upon the multiclass archetypes and the party I am GMing for found that this concept would be a lot cooler than the standard multiclassing. What I have not figured out, however, was how to actually apply the multiclass archetype.

While the Divine Champions pdf addresses the base class and such, we've come up with some questions.

Does the character have to multiclass, using pathfinder rules to be 1/1 in the primary and secondary class of the archetype? i.e. to become a Blackguard Assassin would the character have to be a first level Antipaladin, and Rogue, with Antipaladin as the favored class? Or does the multiclass archetype just act as a normal archetype for the class, while replacing some Antipaladin mechanics with rogue mechanics? An example for this would be the Antipaladin becoming the Blackguard Assassin at level 2, when the sneak attack mechanic comes into play.

it's a regular archetype for antipaladin, although it counts as both for feat prerequisites and favored class. also, I don't know the "official"ruling on it, but I don't allow an MCA to multiclass with it's listed secondary class.


it's a regular archetype for antipaladin, although it counts as both for feat prerequisites and favored class. also, I don't know the "official"ruling on it, but I don't allow an MCA to multiclass with it's listed secondary class.

I see. That makes sense. Thanks for the help!


+5 Toaster wrote:
#insightful mind, I am just not seeing the broken issue here. looking over the spell list in the final draft, I am not seeing a lot of good ac buffs outside of cats grace and situational ones like the protection spells. heck they don't even have mage armor on their list. And by the by, the Kensai Magus is closest mechanical comparison to the class, doubly so since we are comparing the one ability they have in common and the kensai gets Ablative Barrier and twice as good canny defense (before implementing your suggestion). With your suggestion, he is going to have seriously invest in resources to keep his AC viable until fourth level, where he will be required to learn and use cat's grace to keep up. this guy isn't meant to be a squishy caster standing in the back, and he's no bard(who will have better ac) when it comes to the support role, so if he can't wade into combat there isn't much hope for him.

If Kensai is the closest, then shut this one down, you are doing it wrong.

And no, the bard will not have anywhere near the same AC at mid to endgame- the bard has at least 11-13 points less (sans limited resources) unless we change the Canny Defense ability to either my suggestion, or another that actually deals with the issue.


#Insightful Mind: Personally, I think the idea of a magic monk manifesting their defensive powers in the form of mage-armor like power armor is super cool.
Granted that doesn't do a lot of justice to the whole, monks dodging everything shtick... But then again, this is a mage monk!
I am in support of the armor type power armor idea for helping deal with the insightful mind AC issue.

#Arcane Venator: I don't see why you needed to add the bit about outsiders to the list. They're identified with Kn. Planes, not Kn. Arcana. I'm confused how they got implicated in the first place.


Iorthol wrote:

#Insightful Mind: Personally, I think the idea of a magic monk manifesting their defensive powers in the form of mage-armor like power armor is super cool.

Granted that doesn't do a lot of justice to the whole, monks dodging everything shtick... But then again, this is a mage monk!
I am in support of the armor type power armor idea for helping deal with the insightful mind AC issue.

#Arcane Venator: I don't see why you needed to add the bit about outsiders to the list. They're identified with Kn. Planes, not Kn. Arcana. I'm confused how they got implicated in the first place.

They whole thing with the sla's was still sketchy when I threw that out there, though I don't think angel-bloodied aasimar clerics should be a valid target for the ability. I still don't get why it has to not stack with mage armor, I could get behind the progression since it helps with lower levels somewhat, but worrying about a spell that isn't even on their list seems downright silly.


I think I'd be fine with armor bonus to AC (mage armor) start at 3 and +1 at 4th and every 4 levels. Still allows for a +5 ring, natural armor amulet, and even better bracers of armor, since whichever one is higher would supercede the other (his bonus vs. the item's bonus). Does he get He also has a shield spell too. So +8 armor, +5 ring, +5 Dex, +5 nat AC amulet, +4 shield spell = 27 + 10 base = AC 37 say at 20th. Pretty decent for a hybrid caster without armor.

I vote with go with that suggestion. Plus, other caster could always buff him too in some ways if they had the spells.


Evil Lincoln wrote:
Why is the Abomination Rider restricted from Order of the Dragon?

Aack. I forget why we did that. Unless El remembers i'll look at it when I'm at home...


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

I think I'd be fine with armor bonus to AC (mage armor) start at 3 and +1 at 4th and every 4 levels. Still allows for a +5 ring, natural armor amulet, and even better bracers of armor, since whichever one is higher would supercede the other (his bonus vs. the item's bonus). Does he get He also has a shield spell too. So +8 armor, +5 ring, +5 Dex, +5 nat AC amulet, +4 shield spell = 27 + 10 base = AC 37 say at 20th. Pretty decent for a hybrid caster without armor.

I vote with go with that suggestion. Plus, other caster could always buff him too in some ways if they had the spells.

hmm fine I'll see how he handles in playtesting. he'll be the only arcane caster in the group though.


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Evil Lincoln wrote:
Why is the Abomination Rider restricted from Order of the Dragon?
Aack. I forget why we did that. Unless El remembers i'll look at it when I'm at home...

I don't remember either.

@Evil Lincoln: Remember, just because we may have something in the MCA, doesn't mean you can't homebrew it too. If you want Order of the Dragon, go for it. Let us know what happens.


#Arcane Venator
Why not just change it to this.

Arcane Bane (Su): This is exactly like the inquisitor’s bane ability, except that the bane special weapon ability property applies only to creatures that have levels in an arcane spellcasting class (including alchemist), or that have racial spell-like abilities and are identified using the Knowledge (arcana) skill (such as constructs, dragons, and magical beasts).

This changes it just slightly, but specifies any creature with arcane spellcasting levels or any creature identified by Knowledge (arcana) with spell-like abilities. This totally ignores any outsiders altogether.


#Abomination RIder:
@Evil Lincoln - I think the restriction was put in place initially because those two Orders were geared more for allies of the Cavalier, not the mount, and we wanted to steer Abomination Riders to the Order of the Abominable Horde.

The Order of the Dragon's Strategy and Act as One aren't really the Abomination Rider's thing, at least as I envisioned them - I was thinking more "lone rider" than "commander". Aid Allies might be interesting if applied to the mount, but it still feels a little meta-gamey to me - imparting the bonus to your mount, while thematic, seems just a bit too easy...

The Oder of the Lion's Lion's Call and For the King again are more a group commander thing, while Shield of the Liege feels a bit meta-gamey again.

Still, we are all about providing options and application - if you wish to dispense with the restriction on those two orders I won't mind at all!!!


Here's what I think we should do with the Bloodborn Magus. And yes, I gave Eschew Materials as a free feat without swap.

BLOODBORN MAGUS:

Although most magi develop their magical talents through years of study, there are those who are simply born with the gift of magic. These bloodborn magi instead dedicate their time to learning how to harness and perfect the magical talents within their blood, often sacrificing their skills with the blade. Having great confidence from their blood-fuelled magic, bloodborn magi are often intimidating foes or cunning diplomats. Still, they are formidable foes that surge with arcane energies and can dominate the battlefield.

Primary Class: Magus.
Secondary Class: Sorcerer.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d8.

Bonus Skills and Ranks: The bloodborn magus may select three sorcerer skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal magus class skills. The bloodborn magus gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 2 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The bloodborn magus is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. A bloodborn magus is also proficient with light armor. He can cast magus spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a bloodborn magus wearing medium armor, heavy armor, or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass bloodborn magus still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

Spellcasting: The bloodborn magus casts arcane spell drawn from the magus spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a bloodborn magus must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class (DC) for a saving throw against a bloodborn magus’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the bloodborn magus’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a bloodborn magus can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Bloodborn Magus Spells per Day. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

The bloodborn magus’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A bloodborn magus begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of the bloodborn magus’s choice. At each new bloodborn magus level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Bloodborn Magus Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a bloodborn magus knows is not affected by his Charisma score.)

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bloodborn magus level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bloodborn magus can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bloodborn magus “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level magus spell the bloodborn magus can cast. A bloodborn magus may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

A bloodborn magus need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.

Blood Pool: This is exactly like the magus’s arcane pool, except that the bloodborn magus removes the dancing and vorpal weapon properties from his list and adds nullifying and spell stealing weapon properties.
In addition, a bloodborn magus can use his blood pool to fuel his bloodline powers. At 1st level, instead of enhancing his weapon, a bloodborn magus can spend 1 point from his arcane pool to either gain one use of his first bloodline power if it has uses per day, or gain its effects for 1 minute. As the bloodborn magus gains experience, he gains access to more of his bloodline powers.

At 5th level, a bloodborn magus can spend 1 point from his blood pool to gain his second bloodline power for 1 minute. At 11th level, he can spend 1 points from his blood pool to gain his third bloodline power for 1 minute. At 17th level, he can spend 1 point from his blood pool to gain his fourth bloodline power for 1 minute. If any of these subsequent bloodline powers have uses per day, he gains one use of the bloodline power instead. This ability replaces arcane pool and knowledge pool.

Bloodline: At 1st level, a bloodborn magus gains the sorcerer’s bloodline ability and adds his bloodline skill to his list of class skills.

Bloodstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a bloodborn magus casts a bloodline spell with a range of “touch”, or gains a bloodline power through his blood pool that affects a single opponent, he can deliver the spell or power through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell or the standard action to use a bloodline power), a bloodborn magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell or activating the power. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell or the power. If the bloodborn magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon’s critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier. This ability otherwise functions and replaces spellstrike.

Eschew Materials: A bloodborn magus gains Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at 1st level.

Force of Personality: Unlike other magi, a bloodborn magus uses his Charisma to determine the effects of his class features instead of his Intelligence.

Magus Arcana: This is exactly like the magus ability of the same name, except that a bloodborn magus gains his bloodline arcana as his 3rd level magus arcana.

Arcane Surge (Su): At 4th level, the bloodborn magus learns to use his blood pool to power his spellcasting. As a swift action he can gain an extra spell slot by expending a number of points from his arcane pool equal to the level of the spell slot (minimum 1). This spell slot lasts until it is used to cast a spell or the magus refreshes his spells per day. This replaces spell recall.

Bloodline Spells: At 4th level and every three levels thereafter (7th, 10th, and so on) the bloodline magus adds his bloodline spells to his spells known, up to his 6th–level bloodline spell. These spells are cast as if they were magus spells for the purposes of all other class features. This replaces greater spell access.

Bonus Feats: This is exactly like the magus ability of the same name, except that the bloodborn magus can also choose a bonus feat from his bloodline feats.

Greater Arcane Surge (Su): At 11th level, the bloodborn magus’s ability to gain extra spell slots using his blood pool becomes more efficient. Whenever he gains an extra spell slot with arcane surge, he expends a number of points from his arcane pool equal to 1/2 the spell’s level (minimum 1). In addition he may use this extra spell slot to cast a spell, of the same level, from the magus spell list that he does not know by expending a number of points from his arcane pool equal to the spell’s level (minimum 1). The bloodborn magus cannot apply any metamagic feats to this spell. This replaces improved spell recall.

Magi of the Blood (Su): At 20th level, a bloodborn magus can cast either his 7th–, 8th–, or 9th–level bloodline once per day as a spell-like ability. The bloodborn magus must provide any expensive material components required to cast the spells as normal. In addition, the bloodborn magus permanently gains the use of his first bloodline power (as described in his bloodline), and is no longer required to spend blood points to activate it. This ability replaces true magus and heavy armor.

Free = Eschew Materials
Arcane pool = Blood Pool (Bloodline + arcana)
Spellstrike = Bloodstrike
Magus arcana (3rd) = Bloodline arcana
Spell recall = Arcane surge
Bonus feat = same + Bloodline feats
Improved spell recall = Greater arcane surge
Greater spell access = Bloodline spells
True magus + Heavy armor = Magi of the blood.

Table: Bloodborn Magus
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th

1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Blood pool, bloodline, cantrips, eschew material, 3 1 — — — — —
spell combat
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Bloodstrike 4 2 — — — — —
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Magus arcana 4 3 — — — — —
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Arcane surge, bloodline spell 4 3 1 — — — —
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Bonus feat 4 4 2 — — — —
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Magus arcana 5 4 3 — — — —
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 Bloodline spell, medium armor 5 4 3 1 — — —
8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Improved spell combat 5 4 4 2 — — —
9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Magus arcana 5 5 4 3 — — —
10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 Bloodline spell, fighter training 5 5 4 3 1 — —
11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Bonus feat, greater arcane surge 5 5 4 4 2 — —
12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Magus arcana 5 5 5 4 3 — —
13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Bloodline spell 5 5 5 4 3 1 —
14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Greater spell combat 5 5 5 4 4 2 —
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Magus arcana 5 5 5 5 4 3 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Bloodline spell, counterstrike 5 5 5 5 4 3 1
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Bonus feat 5 5 5 5 4 4 2
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Magus arcana 5 5 5 5 5 4 3
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Bloodline spell 5 5 5 5 5 5 4
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Magi of the blood 5 5 5 5 5 5 5

Table: Bloodborn Magus Spells Known
Class
Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th

1st 4 2 — — — — —
2nd 5 3 — — — — —
3rd 6 4 — — — — —
4th 6 4 2 — — — —
5th 6 4 3 — — — —
6th 6 4 4 — — — —
7th 6 5 4 2 — — —
8th 6 5 4 3 — — —
9th 6 5 4 4 — — —
10th 6 5 5 4 2 — —
11th 6 6 5 4 3 — —
12th 6 6 5 4 4 — —
13th 6 6 5 5 4 2 —
14th 6 6 6 5 4 3 —
15th 6 6 6 5 4 4 —
16th 6 6 6 5 5 4 2
17th 6 6 6 6 5 4 3
18th 6 6 6 6 5 4 4
19th 6 6 6 6 5 5 4
20th 6 6 6 6 6 5 5


#Abomination Rider
Yeah, what OSW said. Now that you mention all that, that seems to be the reasoning behind our restricting them.


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

Here's what I think we should do with the Bloodborn Magus. And yes, I gave Eschew Materials as a free feat without swap.

** spoiler omitted **...

I appreciate that this isn't just a "give magus bloodline, change stat to charisma, done!" The blood pool mechanics and strike really sell this for me. Also magi of the blood is sweet, even if i keep wanting to say it the other way around.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

#Bloodborn Magus

Elghinn, I must say that is masterfully done, I wasn't sure how adventurous to be this combination but I'm very much impressed at the result.


Glad you like it. I think it gives it a very "Magus" approach to the spontaneous bloodline spellcaster.

The technical aspect of creating MCA isn't terribly difficult to do or learn, its the "art form" of creating an MCA, learning how to meld abilities and tweak them into cohesive new class features that can be hard. It simply comes with practice. After 2 years and 200+ MCAs, we've gotten prtty good at it but its always nice to have a fresh perspective from those who join us on the thread. We don't want to get too complacent or rutted in. We just hope to pass that aspect of the creation process on to you guys. Once you get that part of it and combine it with the technical aspect, watch out, you can come up with some pretty interesting stuff.


Just a quick note on the Bloodborn Magus

The Blood Pool would let an Elemental Bloodline magi use their Elemental Blast about 20-25 times per day, which is effectively a 20d6 fireball that causes vulnerability to its element. I would be careful about granting the bloodline higher up abilities too much buy-in freedom with the blood pool.
A delayed fireball would only be usable with the blood pool about 10 times, and I think it caps at a lower amount of damage.

Poor Magus, always losing spell combat whenever an MCA is made with em :P


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

@Iorthol, this MCA still has spell combat :P

You're still using up significant daily resources to do that. Though there's little harm in inserting text stating that if a bloodline ability may only be used n/day (like Elemental Blast) a Bloodborn Magus can't activate more than that many times.


i not see it as much of a problem the magus could all was nova this doesn't make a new problem for the class so the there is not a new balances issue


I'm just for thinkin that if an ability is 1/day from a bloodline that it should cost more than 1 blood point. Maybe 2 or 3.
1 just seems a wee bit too cheap.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

@Iorthol,

I'm not too sure that those abilities are too cheap, you only have 1/2 level + Cha mod points per day and you'll be spreading them out between improving your weapon, gaining bloodline abilities and gaining extra spell slots.

@Kyras,

That's a good point, as I've also realised a spontaneous magus can't use the Magical Lineage + Intensified Shocking Grasp to add up to 10d6 on an attack for the cost of a 1st level spell (which is a pretty big damage boost)

@Elghinn,

Should we add the ability to use blood pool to make natural weapons granted through the bloodline magical?


Elghinn wrote:
Remember, just because we may have something in the MCA, doesn't mean you can't homebrew it too. If you want Order of the Dragon, go for it. Let us know what happens.

This is one forum member who needs no encouragement!

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

#Abomination RIder:

@Evil Lincoln - I think the restriction was put in place initially because those two Orders were geared more for allies of the Cavalier, not the mount, and we wanted to steer Abomination Riders to the Order of the Abominable Horde.

The Order of the Dragon's Strategy and Act as One aren't really the Abomination Rider's thing, at least as I envisioned them - I was thinking more "lone rider" than "commander". Aid Allies might be interesting if applied to the mount, but it still feels a little meta-gamey to me - imparting the bonus to your mount, while thematic, seems just a bit too easy...

The Oder of the Lion's Lion's Call and For the King again are more a group commander thing, while Shield of the Liege feels a bit meta-gamey again.

Still, we are all about providing options and application - if you wish to dispense with the restriction on those two orders I won't mind at all!!!

I recommend dropping them. I don't think "steering" of classes is a good idea, since a huge part of the fun of building a character in the class system is getting a slightly different flavor out of the pieces your presented with.

For the abomination rider in particular, there's a classic trope that the summoner was "supposed" to fill, that of the monster rider. It can actually serve in this role, but the A.R. has the potential to be the dragon-rider class (or whatever else rider). Sometimes, that trope involves leading troops into battle from the back of your majestic monster.

Now, I'm probably still not going to adopt the A.R. for my Panzer Dragoon-inspired summoner/cavalier, but you've come very close to making a better class for that character type. If you want to steer the players in a certain direction, I suggest you do it by adding rather than subtracting options.

From a balance perspective, I think makes sense. It's just weird that for the class where a lot of people will pretty obviously want their abomination to be a dragon, they can't be order of the dragon.

Thanks for listening!

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