I am saying that the comparison is being leveraged around one optional class feature that isn't even in the CRB (neither are style feats, but I digress). Pounce is great. Its great for anyone who can get it. Saying that monks can't compete because they don't have pounce is unfair though. I don't want everyone to have a pounce arms race. Let it be a special thing that makes barbs special. Like I said, monks can pounce too under the right conditions.
On a side note I wish that barbs pounce had a caveat too, because its a hell of an awesome ability, especially since they aren't as MAD and can stack high strength based damage.
In a humanoid focused campaign I think that monks fair better in the class comparison area. Especially in that they can get some more use out of their maneuver feats. But that is not something that is guaranteed, and certainly something you might not know as a player at 1st level.
Monks CANNOT fill the barbar role without pounce.
They may be able to fill something close to the paladin role.
Monk need to fill a role to be useful. To find that role you need to compare to similar classes. You can't compare a barbar and monk because monks don't have pounce. Just like you can't compare fighters and barbars because barbars have pounce.
We say rangers, pallys and barbars are roughly the same power because of everything the pally and ranger get that barbars don't. When comparing monk, he should be compare to one of those three that fill a similar role. Barbar is not that choice.
I am saying that the comparison is being leveraged around one optional class feature that isn't even in the CRB (neither are style feats, but I digress). Pounce is great. Its great for anyone who can get it. Saying that monks can't compete because they don't have pounce is unfair though. I don't want everyone to have a pounce arms race. Let it be a special thing that makes barbs special. Like I said, monks can pounce too under the right conditions.
On a side note I wish that barbs pounce had a caveat too, because its a hell of an awesome ability, especially since they aren't as MAD and can stack high strength based damage.
In a humanoid focused campaign I think that monks fair better in the class comparison area. Especially in that they can get some more use out of their maneuver feats. But that is not something that is guaranteed, and certainly something you might not know as a player at 1st level.
Monks CANNOT fill the barbar role without pounce.
They may be able to fill something close to the paladin role.
Monk need to fill a role to be useful. To find that role you need to compare to similar classes. You can't compare a barbar and monk because monks don't have pounce. Just like you can't compare fighters and barbars because barbars have pounce.
We say rangers, pallys and barbars are roughly the same power because of everything the pally and ranger get that barbars don't. When comparing monk, he should be compare to one of those three that fill a similar role. Barbar is not that choice.
Dude, just have the monk multiclass into Synthergist, boom both have pounce. We can now compare.
On a side note I wish that barbs pounce had a caveat too, because its a hell of an awesome ability, especially since they aren't as MAD and can stack high strength based damage.
Martials can't have nice things?
Really though, barbarians do a lot of things monk's can't. Modular design ftw? Barbarians do a lot of things other martials can't. Punch magic, eat it, get so angry they grow wings, +8(10 with courageous weapon) str/con for free.
Dude, just have the monk multiclass into Synthergist, boom both have pounce. We can now compare.I am saying that the comparison is being leveraged around one optional class feature that isn't even in the CRB (neither are style feats, but I digress). Pounce is great. Its great for anyone who can get it. Saying that monks can't compete because they don't have pounce is unfair though. I don't want everyone to have a pounce arms race. Let it be a special thing that makes barbs special. Like I said, monks can pounce too under the right conditions.
On a side note I wish that barbs pounce had a caveat too, because its a hell of an awesome ability, especially since they aren't as MAD and can stack high strength based damage.
In a humanoid focused campaign I think that monks fair better in the class comparison area. Especially in that they can get some more use out of their maneuver feats. But that is not something that is guaranteed, and certainly something you might not know as a player at 1st level.
Monks CANNOT fill the barbar role without pounce.
They may be able to fill something close to the paladin role.
Monk need to fill a role to be useful. To find that role you need to compare to similar classes. You can't compare a barbar and monk because monks don't have pounce. Just like you can't compare fighters and barbars because barbars have pounce.
We say rangers, pallys and barbars are roughly the same power because of everything the pally and ranger get that barbars don't. When comparing monk, he should be compare to one of those three that fill a similar role. Barbar is not that choice.
Monks can't multi-class
Instead of nerfing Barbarians' Pounce, Paizo should publish similar options to other martial classes.
Restricted mobility is a serious problem for all non-casters. It creates the whole "stand still or suck" situation that hurts martials everywhere.
Even Barbarians, who get Pounce, need to invest 3 rage Powers and wait for 10th level to be able to move without losing most of their effectiveness... And this is assuming they're not in any sort of difficult terrain and that their targets in a straight line away from the Barbarian no objects between them.
Mobility is something that really should be addressed. Full attack mechanics are the main reason "skirmisher" classes (such as Monks) usually suck.
Monks can't multi-class
Now I'm curious... Why not?
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And now the rest of the build so we can see what you give up.Yes, a barbar gives up so-much to have his two-handed full-attack do more than damage than a monks 3/4 BAB single attack action.
You can't compare the two. If you want to save "Well the monk has these defenses" or "The monk has special attack options" well then you are comparing it to a paladin or ranger now.
Barbar pounce is why you compare fighters to paladins and rangers.
Pounce ends the debate (at the cost of 3 rage powers, two of which give you natural attacks and armor)
And yet the debate goes on...
So you have spent 4 rage powers of your 5. You have 22 rounds of rage a day +Con, I think.
I mean, you can keep going "I AM RIGHT, LOOK AT ME" or you could do what everyone else in the thread is doing.
If you think your approach is working, have fun...
And yet you refuse to compare the monk against a paladin? Telling
I've put barbars, rangers, and paladins at the same level of usefulness. Yet you only want to compare the monk to the one that is least comparable? Who is trying to be right now?
Post a Paladin then.
Monks can't multi-classNow I'm curious... Why not?
My mistake that was 3.5.
Post a Paladin then.And now the rest of the build so we can see what you give up.Yes, a barbar gives up so-much to have his two-handed full-attack do more than damage than a monks 3/4 BAB single attack action.
You can't compare the two. If you want to save "Well the monk has these defenses" or "The monk has special attack options" well then you are comparing it to a paladin or ranger now.
Barbar pounce is why you compare fighters to paladins and rangers.
Pounce ends the debate (at the cost of 3 rage powers, two of which give you natural attacks and armor)
And yet the debate goes on...
So you have spent 4 rage powers of your 5. You have 22 rounds of rage a day +Con, I think.
I mean, you can keep going "I AM RIGHT, LOOK AT ME" or you could do what everyone else in the thread is doing.
If you think your approach is working, have fun...
And yet you refuse to compare the monk against a paladin? Telling
I've put barbars, rangers, and paladins at the same level of usefulness. Yet you only want to compare the monk to the one that is least comparable? Who is trying to be right now?
No? You post a paladin. Try to make one that is worse than a monk without dumping strength or cha.
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+13?Let us see your 10th level pouncing Barbarian and discuss it.Let's see a single monk attack compare to a full-attack.
Well here is his single attack to compare to Barbarian full attack (added Power attack + Dragon Style because he was too lazy to do it for us)
Melee Unarmed Strike +13(2d6+15/20/x2)How is DPR calculated again?
Average damage is 22 though.Yep, you had it +16 but you never added Power attack which takes -3 from hit to add +6 damage.
Without power attack or dragon style: Melee Unarmed Strike +16/+11 (2d6+8/20/x2)So yeah, -3 from 16 =13.
And why without dragon style?
If you are adding power attack then it would be average 24 damage.
And I assume if we are comparing it to pounce, I am also charging? So +2 makes it...
+15 2d6 (avg 7) +6 (str)+3 (dragon) +2 (AoMF) +6 Power attack.
And of course, add in a 20% to 30% stunning chance.
In 3.5 they could! They just had to waste a precious feat and use one of a few select classes. Ascetic Feats I think. Something like that. They also still had to be lawful. For reasons of comparison we aren't multi-classing anyway are we?
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No? You post a paladin. Try to make one that is worse than a monk without dumping strength or cha.
Hah! You really don't see why this argument makes no sense, do you?
No? You post a paladin. Try to make one that is worse than a monk without dumping strength or cha.Worse? Seems a stupid goal with silly criteria, but ok
Because that's the nice thing to do? The upside is I still prefer the paladins class features to the monk. Only bad thing about a paladin is its code of conduct.
Edit: that paladin hits more often and has more BAB than the monk. He also happens to be immune to several effects, has at least okay saves, and can bypass DR by not liking someone. He also has litany of righteousness and can still help the party with spells and his detect evil.
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No? You post a paladin. Try to make one that is worse than a monk without dumping strength or cha.Worse? Seems a stupid goal with silly criteria, but okBecause that's the nice thing to do? The upside is I still prefer the paladins class features to the monk. Only bad thing about a paladin is its code of conduct.
Edit: that paladin hits more often and has more BAB than the monk. He also happens to be immune to several effects, has at least okay saves, and can bypass DR by not liking someone. He also has litany of righteousness and can still help the party with spells and his detect evil.
The nice thing to do would be to put actual effort into backing up what you are saying rather than doing a drive by telling everyone they are wrong...
Also, the Paladin above attacks at +15. Less than the monk.
I'm discussing the class features. I don't need a build to do that. Building can give you numbers to certain variables, but the problem is they are variables and change from build to build.
What monk are you comparing to? Monk is full bab -2 + strength(when flurrying). Paladin is full bab + strength(even when moving). You also did nothing to equip him or give him feats. I wouldn't be toting things like that if I were you.
Edit: Full BAB + strength + Charisma when smiting. Brings him above the Monk. Not that he's smiting full time, but its something to note.
No? You post a paladin. Try to make one that is worse than a monk without dumping strength or cha.Worse? Seems a stupid goal with silly criteria, but ok
10th Level Human Paladin
20 (+2 human, +1 at 4 and 8)
10
10
10
10
16Feats:
1
3
5
7
9No equiptment
Tada!
Looks better than the monk builds I've seen so far. Take away their feats and equipment and they are far worse than this build.
Looks better than the monk builds I've seen so far. Take away their feats and equipment and they are far worse than this build.
Ditto. Though He could probably use some clothes and a weapon. Can we get a chain shirt here? Being naked is too chaotic. He might fall for that.
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Looks better than the monk builds I've seen so far. Take away their feats and equipment and they are far worse than this build.
Uh huh...look if you can't do it you can't do it. You two have fun under the bridge...
Edit: Also, 3 of the monks feats are class features...but hey, you know the rules so well you can teach us all...
I'm discussing the class features. I don't need a build to do that.If you want context you do.
No. No you don't. No matter how I build the character the merits of Aura of Courage will out weight Bravery. It is static. It is not a variable. No matter how I build the character Divine health comes online 2 levels earlier than Purity of Body. The only exception is when you trade them out, but we're discussing nilla' atm.
Uh huh...look if you can't do it you can't do it. Have fun under the bridge...
Looks better than the monk builds I've seen so far. Take away their feats and equipment and they are far worse than this build.
What I had you make a build.
You decided that feats and equipment were optional.
Apply that logic to every monk build so far and BAM! We are comparing class features. Now the monk clearly sucks. Good Job!
Tsc... I tried making a "flurry Ranger" in HL... One that used a 2-handed Nodachi as his main weapon and unarmed strikes as his secondary weapon.
I even calculated its DPR against AC 24 (39,26, or 45,82 with Power Attack). But I'm so smart that I closed HeroLab before saving!!! ¬¬'
Tsc... I'll try to remake the build... -.-'
The sad thing is that if the guy simply used a 2-Handed Nodachi instead of 2-Handed Nodachi + IUS, his DPR raises to 46,64 (with PA) without even using his bonus feats! In thise case, he becomes a very capable switch-hitter...
Did you try using dragon style? or maybe you want to forget IUS and use a spiked armor.Tsc... I tried making a "flurry Ranger" in HL... One that used a 2-handed Nodachi as his main weapon and unarmed strikes as his secondary weapon.
I even calculated its DPR against AC 24 (39,26, or 45,82 with Power Attack). But I'm so smart that I closed HeroLab before saving!!! ¬¬'
Tsc... I'll try to remake the build... -.-'
The sad thing is that if the guy simply used a 2-Handed Nodachi instead of 2-Handed Nodachi + IUS, his DPR raises to 46,64 (with PA) without even using his bonus feats! In thise case, he becomes a very capable switch-hitter...
Dragon Style, yes... But no Dragon Ferocity, he doesn't qualify for that... So only his 1st unarmed attakc adds 1.5x Str modifier, not that is a huge loss, since he only makes 2 unarmed attacks per round, anyway...
He'd probably be better with a Falchion and Armor Spikes, but I wanted to give him a "Monkish" feel...
If you compare one class feature against another class feature you can say what is better 8specially if they are similar). But when comparing classes you have to see the whole package. I suppose that is what ciretose meant.No. No you don't. No matter how I build the character the merits of Aura of Courage will out weight Bravery. It is static. It is not a variable. No matter how I build the character Divine health comes online 2 levels earlier than Purity of Body. The only exception is when you trade them out, but we're discussing nilla' atm.I'm discussing the class features. I don't need a build to do that.If you want context you do.
Which is why I've gone through and named off all of the class features the monk has and stated what I didn't like about them earlier. The monk doesn't have many notable class features. He moves fast, he has a few bonus feats, and he has flurry. Beyond that he was errata'd to have some better ability to bypass DR and flurry with one hand(well... that one was just a weird long story)
Flurry has a major downside of forcing them into 2wf. Its free of 2wf feats, but they still have 3/4 BAB every other moment of their life. They have their level to maneuvers at least, but maneuvers come with their own problem.
Their most significant class features are Flurry and AC bonus. Sadly the AC bonus only helps to bring them up to others(Although in a higher point buy it can lead to amazing defense. MAD classes are weird.) None of these really help bring them above others in combat though. Meanwhile the other classes do.
Monks can't multi-classNow I'm curious... Why not?
Because the question is, "is the pure core monk viable stand-alone?" so if you have to multi-class, you stopped being a pure monk.
Oh, I knocked up a pure fighter for the comparisons, just a basic build in ten minutes.
Human (Shoanti) Fighter 10
N Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +12
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Defense
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AC 27, touch 15, flat-footed 24 (+11 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 100 (10d10+36)
Fort +10, Ref +9, Will +9 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
Defensive Abilities bravery +3
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +3 Falchion +25/+20 (2d4+18/15-20/x2) and
. . +3 Falchion +25/+17 (2d4+27/15-20/x2) Power Attack and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +16/+11 (1d3+6/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +16/+11 (1d3+6/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +6) +16/+11 (1d8+9/x3)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +4, bows +3)
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +10; CMB +16; CMD 31 (35 vs. Disarm, 35 vs. Sunder)
Feats Dodge, Furious Focus, Greater Weapon Focus (Falchion), Improved Critical (Falchion), Improved Iron Will (1/day), Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack -3/+6, Step Up, Toughness +10, Weapon Focus (Falchion), Weapon Specialization (Falchion)
Traits Deft Dodger, Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics +1, Climb +12, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Handle Animal +4, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (engineering) +5, Perception +12, Profession (soldier) +6, Ride +6, Stealth -1, Survival +8, Swim +7
Languages Common, Shoanti
Other Gear +2 Full plate, +3 Falchion, Arrows (20), Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +6), Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical might (Str & Dex +2), Cloak of resistance +1, Gloves of dueling, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ring of protection +1, 97 PP, 1004 GP
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Improved Iron Will (1/day) Can re-roll a Will save, but must take the second result.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Step Up When a foe makes a 5 ft step away from you, you can move 5 ft to follow them.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Vs AC24 his DPR is: (.95 x 32 x 1.3) + (.7 x 32 x 1.3) = 68.64, which is a little low. On the other hand with a haste up this jumps to around 110. AC is decent, and vs DR his damage output is still respectable even if he can't bypass it. Saves are solid, not outstanding but certainly decent enough. He isn't out-damaging Art's monk un-buffed, but he is out defending him especially in melee. Further, he's got better ranged options. So which would you want in a party? This guy.
But here is the thing: there was no skill or tricks assembling this fighter. With a little system mastery he could probably be a lot better.
I'm not sure this is the exactly same build I made earlier... It might be slightly different. And I don't remember all items I had bought, so he still has 6000gp left.
Male Half-Elf Ranger 10
LN Medium Humanoid (elf, human)
Init +2; Senses low-light vision; Perception +20
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 13, flat-footed 20 (+8 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 89 (10d10+30)
Fort +13 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +12, Will +11; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune magic sleep; Resist elven immunities
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 Silversheen Nodachi +18/+13 (1d10+11/18-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +18/+13 (1d3+8/x2)
Ranged +1 Composite longbow (Str +6) +14/+9 (1d8+7/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks favored enemies (dragons +2, evil outsiders +2, undead +6)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 9):
2 (2/day) Barkskin (x2)
1 (3/day) Lead Blades, Aspect of the Falcon, Longstrider
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +10; CMB +16 (+18 Grappling); CMD 29
Feats Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Double Slice, Dragon Style, Endurance, Furious Focus, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack -3/+6, Two-weapon Fighting
Traits Indomitable Faith, Magical Knack (Ranger)
Skills Acrobatics +5, Bluff -1 (+1 vs. dragons, +1 vs. evil outsiders, +5 vs. undead), Climb +10, Intimidate +12, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +13 (+15 vs. dragons, +15 vs. evil outsiders, +19 vs. undead), Knowledge (nature) +13 (+15 vs. dragons, +15 vs. evil outsiders, +19 vs. undead), Perception +20 (+22 vs. dragons, +22 vs. evil outsiders, +26 vs. undead, +22 while in forest terrain, +24 while in underground terrain), Sense Motive +2 (+4 vs. dragons, +4 vs. evil outsiders, +8 vs. undead), Spellcraft +13, Stealth +15 (+17 while in forest terrain, +19 while in underground terrain), Survival +10 (+12 vs. dragons, +12 vs. evil outsiders, +16 vs. undead, +12 while in forest terrain, +14 while in underground terrain, +15 to track), Swim +10 (+14 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion); Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven
SQ brawling, combat styles (two-weapon combat), elf blood, favored terrains (forest +2, underground +4), hunter's bonds (companions), swift tracker, track, wild empathy, woodland stride
Other Gear +2 Brawling Mithral Breastplate, +1 Composite longbow (Str +6), +2 Silversheen Nodachi, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical might (Str & Con +2), Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +3, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ring of protection +1, 6035 GP
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Special Abilities
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Brawling Unarmed strikes count as magic for bypassing DR.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Dragon Style +2 vs sleep, paralysis, and stun, first unarmed strike in a rd deals 1.5x Str, and can ignore difficult terrain/allies when charging.
Elf Blood You are counted as both elven and human for any effect relating to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Favored Enemy (Dragons +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Dragons).
Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders).
Favored Enemy (Undead +6) (Ex) +6 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Undead).
Favored Terrain (Forest +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Forest).
Favored Terrain (Underground +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Underground).
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Hunting Companions (2 rounds) (Ex) Grant half favored enemy bonus to allies in 30' as move action.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Magical Knack (Ranger) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Swift Tracker (Ex) Tracking penalties when moving at normal speed or faster are reduced.
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Wild Empathy +9 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
Coincidentally, both his nodachi and unarmed strikes have the same bonus at the moment, so his attack routine goes +16/+16/+11/+11. The damage varies, though... Nodachi deals 1d10+11, his first US deals 1d3+11 and his second US deals 1d3+8...
To be fair, Dabbler, that build is a DPR-Focused Fighter. Not a very fair comparison.
This build has little to no out-of-combat utility and considerably lower saves.
To be fair, Dabbler, that build is a DPR-Focused Fighter. Not a very fair comparison.
This build has little to no out-of-combat utility and considerably lower saves.
To be fair fighters kind-of-suck anyways. Saying a monk is as good as a fighter is like saying the desert is wetter than the surface of the sun.
Just giving up on playing a monk that feels right is not effort.I did put effort into my monk. It was still an exercise in misery.
1. Lorekeeper hit your goalposts.
2. Many, if not most, classes need some level of system mastery to be "successful"
The problem I'm seeing here is that the class doesn't just require SOME level of system mastery to be successful, it requires a LOT, or at the very least a lot of time/collaboration to make it good.
I'm still under the impression that for every level of skill (though I suspect diminishing returns will come into play the tighter things get) any other given martial class will probably be a lot easier to make at least AS effective as a given Monk, which I think is an issue in and of itself regardless of it ability to be MADE successful.
And you have to admit, a lot of builds so far that have cracked the 100 DPR mark (though I believe the target was 80?) AND the AC mark have relied on using consumables or other resources (Especially KI, which is in short supply).
To be fair fighters kind-of-suck anyways. Saying a monk is as good as a fighter is like saying the desert is wetter than the surface of the sun.To be fair, Dabbler, that build is a DPR-Focused Fighter. Not a very fair comparison.
This build has little to no out-of-combat utility and considerably lower saves.
Actually, Fighters are pretty good at killing stuff... And decent at fighting. The reason they suck is the fact that they basically have zero out of combat utility unless they put a lot of effort and many resources in it.
Actually, Fighters are pretty good at killing stuff... And decent at fighting. The reason they suck is the fact that they basically have zero out of combat utility unless they put a lot of effort and many resources in it.To be fair fighters kind-of-suck anyways. Saying a monk is as good as a fighter is like saying the desert is wetter than the surface of the sun.To be fair, Dabbler, that build is a DPR-Focused Fighter. Not a very fair comparison.
This build has little to no out-of-combat utility and considerably lower saves.
They suck because they are decent at fighting not great. They are FIGHTERS fighting should be their thing, but they get their butt handed to them in that by barbars, rangers, and pallys.
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Just giving up on playing a monk that feels right is not effort.I did put effort into my monk. It was still an exercise in misery.
1. Lorekeeper hit your goalposts.
2. Many, if not most, classes need some level of system mastery to be "successful"The problem I'm seeing here is that the class doesn't just require SOME level of system mastery to be successful, it requires a LOT, or at the very least a lot of time/collaboration to make it good.
I'm still under the impression that for every level of skill (though I suspect diminishing returns will come into play the tighter things get) any other given martial class will probably be a lot easier to make at least AS effective as a given Monk, which I think is an issue in and of itself regardless of it ability to be MADE successful.
And you have to admit, a lot of builds so far that have cracked the 100 DPR mark (though I believe the target was 80?) AND the AC mark have relied on using consumables or other resources (Especially KI, which is in short supply).
I think system mastery really only means the ability to look up things and do the math.
I have actually been surprised at the variety of builds that can make the target.
The AC target was 22. I hit that before adding barkskin. I didn't use any consumables.
And the 88 DPR was a really high bar, IMHO. That is more than 1/2 of the expected hit points for an equal CR creature at this level. I think 1/4 of expected hit points is fine for a "viability" type discussion.
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They suck because they are decent at fighting not great. They are FIGHTERS fighting should be their thing, but they get their butt handed to them in that by barbars, rangers, and pallys.Actually, Fighters are pretty good at killing stuff... And decent at fighting. The reason they suck is the fact that they basically have zero out of combat utility unless they put a lot of effort and many resources in it.To be fair fighters kind-of-suck anyways. Saying a monk is as good as a fighter is like saying the desert is wetter than the surface of the sun.To be fair, Dabbler, that build is a DPR-Focused Fighter. Not a very fair comparison.
This build has little to no out-of-combat utility and considerably lower saves.
Show us.
Show us.They suck because they are decent at fighting not great. They are FIGHTERS fighting should be their thing, but they get their butt handed to them in that by barbars, rangers, and pallys.Actually, Fighters are pretty good at killing stuff... And decent at fighting. The reason they suck is the fact that they basically have zero out of combat utility unless they put a lot of effort and many resources in it.To be fair fighters kind-of-suck anyways. Saying a monk is as good as a fighter is like saying the desert is wetter than the surface of the sun.To be fair, Dabbler, that build is a DPR-Focused Fighter. Not a very fair comparison.
This build has little to no out-of-combat utility and considerably lower saves.
You already think feats are optional. Without feats a fighter has full BAB and armor/weapon training.
Show me that they aren't worse. Or focus on the topic and look at monks.
And the 88 DPR was a really high bar, IMHO. That is more than 1/2 of the expected hit points for an equal CR creature at this level. I think 1/4 of expected hit points is fine for a "viability" type discussion.
You would be wrong.
The AC target was 22. I hit that before adding barkskin. I didn't use any consumables.
Shouldn't it be at least equal to the average AC of CR appropriate enemies? In this case, 24?
And the 88 DPR was a really high bar, IMHO. That is more than 1/2 of the expected hit points for an equal CR creature at this level. I think 1/4 of expected hit points is fine for a "viability" type discussion.
Is this DPR including special abilities and/or buffs?
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The AC target was 22. I hit that before adding barkskin. I didn't use any consumables.Shouldn't it be at least equal to the average AC of CR appropriate enemies? In this case, 24?
And the 88 DPR was a really high bar, IMHO. That is more than 1/2 of the expected hit points for an equal CR creature at this level. I think 1/4 of expected hit points is fine for a "viability" type discussion.Is this DPR including special abilities and/or buffs?
It was Wraith's expectations, not mine. I would have gone lower DPR with higher AC, which was what my original monk had.
Barbarians have pounce. You really can't compare anything else to them after that, unless you have pounce. The other equivalents paladin and ranger do other things that make up for it. When comparing something like a rogue, monk or fighter, they have to compare against those two not the barbar.Personally I don't think evasion or uncanny dodge should count for the purpose of being versatile since they don't help the party. Versatility should measure what you can do for your party, not what you can do for yourself. The monk will probably come out on top by that definition, but having a lot of class abilities that only help you, does not make someone versatile in party terms.
So I guess what should be ask is what are the different things they bring to the party.
PS: I think the bard will take this one over most classes.
Barbarians can get pounce with certain rage powers, just like they can fly with a certain rage power, but they don't have all of these options available at once.
However that brings up another point. The fact that rage powers allows you to custom build a barbarian makes them very versatile, but then again the QQ monk is also versatile to an extent since monks get to trade certain abilities out.
Now I have never looked that QQ in great detail so someone else will have to break that down.
If you are tanking not diying is good for the party. the turn the cleric heal you cause you are near to death is a turn when the cleric can not do something else.Personally I don't think evasion or uncanny dodge should count for the purpose of being versatile since they don't help the party. Versatility should measure what you can do for your party, not what you can do for yourself. The monk will probably come out on top by that definition, but having a lot of class abilities that only help you, does not make someone versatile in party terms.
I understand that high AC, high hit points, and high saves all help conserve party resources, but that is does make them versatile in the sense that they are able to do different things. That just makes them durable, which is not the same as versatile.
The AC target was 22. I hit that before adding barkskin. I didn't use any consumables.Shouldn't it be at least equal to the average AC of CR appropriate enemies? In this case, 24?
And the 88 DPR was a really high bar, IMHO. That is more than 1/2 of the expected hit points for an equal CR creature at this level. I think 1/4 of expected hit points is fine for a "viability" type discussion.Is this DPR including special abilities and/or buffs?
Actually Aranthos kept asking for a number, as if that would satisfy me so I gave him a high one, especially since he said he was making a DPR monk.
It will still have to be field tested later. Now that I am awake I will make my ranger, and create a new thread for the field testing of the builds.
Numbers only get you so far. :)
Barbarians can get pounce with certain rage powers, just like they can fly with a certain rage power, but they don't have all of these options available at once.However that brings up another point. The fact that rage powers allows you to custom build a barbarian makes them very versatile, but then again the QQ monk is also versatile to an extent since monks get to trade certain abilities out.
Now I have never looked that QQ in great detail so someone else will have to break that down.
Qinggong has some really cool options. I usually like to trade Slow Fall for Scorching Ray and High Jump for Barkskin so I can have an emergency AC boost and a solid, reliable close-ranged option.
Unfortunately, Qinggong also has some really, REALLY s%+!ty options, and on top of that the levels powers become available to trade out are off-kilter from the levels the new powers become available.
So you have abilities available to be traded out at 4, 5, and 7, yeah? But the abilities become available at 4, 6, and 8, meaning the level 8 abilities don't become available until level 11. It's silly.
So... why has nobody pointed out to Marthkus that a monk gets pounce too?
In the form of Tiger Pounce. The "pounce" isn't as far as a charge, but on the other hand it is much more versatile about what you can do in conjunction with the "pounce" (other than moving around corners).